The Obamas: How We Deal with Racism [W:305, 407]

[Nilly]

Many things exist which we can interpret as racism, sexism, ageism, weightism, or any damn thing we want to believe in order to justify our own feelings or prejudices. Racists are just stupid, as our rude people, but we should just ignore them and move on because life is just too damn short to do otherwise. It's better to spend time wondering what the smart people are doing and saying then worrying about what the ignorants think.
It's all about culture, not color.

Racism/sexism is very easy to ignore when you are not at the receiving end of it. I'm sure many black people would love to just ignore racism but when it is negatively effecting you it's difficult to just keep sweeping it under the rug.

 

[bubbabgone]

The word racist is really a bad descriptor of a person and thus I don't like to comment on individuals as racist or not. Too much of a rabbit hole. Does saying one racist thing make someone racist? How about one racist act for which you show regret and remorse? Is racism a habit? etc

What I will say is that systemic, institutionalized racism is still very much alive and well today, even if it is more subtle than what it used to be.

Sounds like evasion but let's pursue this.

Is it racist to stir racial conflict based on circumstances that have been shown to be false?
Or is it simply racial exploitation?
Then again, is that a distinction without a difference?

 

[Grant]

Racism/sexism is very easy to ignore when you are not at the receiving end of it. I'm sure many black people would love to just ignore racism but when it is negatively effecting you it's difficult to just keep sweeping it under the rug.

Then they will feel miserable a great deal of their lives.

 

[Nilly]

Sounds like evasion but let's pursue this.

Is it racist to stir racial conflict based on circumstances that have been shown to be false?
Or is it simply racial exploitation?
Then again, is that a distinction without a difference?

You can consider it evasion but my answer is really because I don't spend enough time with Al Sharpton (or many people in the world) to be able to make an accurate judgement on whether they're racist or not. Even someone like Donald Sterling may appear racist from comments he has made, but he insists he's not one and for all I know that was the first racist statement he made in his life (unlikely but possible). Society, on the other hand, I've spent enough time in/experienced enough of to notice systemic discrimination.

It certainly is possible to be complicit in an unfairly racist system without being overtly racist oneself. I myself am (although I try to make efforts to at least recognize it), I'm not tring to preach from some 'holier than thou' position.

As far as your question goes, I'd say it depends on the circumstances. Is your questions a reference to the protests due to the Brown/Garner shootings?

 

[Nilly]

Then they will feel miserable a great deal of their lives.

Yes. And that's ok to you? Remember, when they get too miserable much they will protest and demonstrate. And the rifts will widen as people like you sit on their high horses and scoff 'if only they were more civilized, like us'.

 

[bubbabgone]

You can consider it evasion but my answer is really because I don't spend enough time with Al Sharpton (or many people in the world) to be able to make an accurate judgement on whether they're racist or not.

Even someone like Donald Sterling may appear racist from comments he has made, but he insists he's not one and for all I know that was the first racist statement he made in his life (unlikely but possible). Society, on the other hand, I've spent enough time in/experienced enough of to notice systemic discrimination.

It certainly is possible to be complicit in an unfairly racist system without being overtly racist oneself. I myself am (although I try to make efforts to at least recognize it), I'm not tring to preach from some 'holier than thou' position.

As far as your question goes, I'd say it depends on the circumstances. Is your questions a reference to the protests due to the Brown/Garner shootings?[/QUOTE]

From your other posts you appear you have made that judgment anyway.

 

[Nilly]

From your other posts you appear you have made that judgment anyway.

Nope. As I said, the rabbit hole from 'is he/isn't he racist' goes too deep. I make a point to not call other people racist, but instead focus on society in general.

When people 'cry racism' it's often not personal, but systemic.

 

[bubbabgone]

Nope. As I said, the rabbit hole from 'is he/isn't he racist' goes too deep. I make a point to not call other people racist, but instead focus on society in general.

When people 'cry racism' it's often not personal, but systemic

.

And that way those people can make a racist charge about a system with a very little evidence rather than make a racist charge about a person with a lot of evidence.

 

[Grant]

Yes. And that's ok to you?

It's not up to me. Some will feel badly while others are indifferent. That's up to the individual. I can only offer advice.

Remember, when they get too miserable much they will protest and demonstrate. And the rifts will widen as people like you sit on their high horses and scoff 'if only they were more civilized, like us'.

If they protest and demonstrate that's okay, until it gets out of hand. But their behavior is up to them, not me. The remainder of your post is rubbish.

 

[Nilly]

And that way those people can make a racist charge about a system with a very little evidence rather than make a racist charge about a person with a lot of evidence.

Except there is boatloads of evidence that systemic racism exists. The evidence is in our university graduation rates, our arrest and incarceration rates, our employment rates etc etc etc.

It's not up to me. Some will feel badly while others are indifferent. That's up to the individual. I can only offer advice.

If they protest and demonstrate that's okay, until it gets out of hand. But their behavior is up to them, not me. The remainder of your post is rubbish.

So people who face systemic injustices should just grin and bear it? Not really in line with the ideals this country was founded on, huh?

 

[Grant]

So people who face systemic injustices should just grin and bear it? Not really in line with the ideals this country was founded on, huh?

If you can't quote properly don't bother responding.

 

[bubbabgone]

Except there is boatloads of evidence that systemic racism exists. The evidence is in our university graduation rates, our arrest and incarceration rates, our employment rates etc etc etc.



So people who face systemic injustices should just grin and bear it? Not really in line with the ideals this country was founded on, huh?

Something isn't evidence of racism when it can be explained easily otherwise.
But statements actually made by an actual person can actually be seen as actual racism.
Thus the difference.

 

[Nilly]

If you can't quote properly don't bother responding.

It seems pretty clear that you think these people should just 'stop feeling miserable about it'. They should just suck it up and stop whining, right?

Something isn't evidence of racism when it can be explained easily otherwise.
But statements actually made by an actual person can actually be seen as actual racism.
Thus the difference.

Alright how do you easily explain discrepancies between white and blacks such as:

The police stop blacks and Latinos at rates that are much higher than whites. In New York City, where people of color make up about half of the population, 80% of the NYPD stops were of blacks and Latinos. When whites were stopped, only 8% were frisked. When blacks and Latinos are stopped 85% were frisked according to information provided by the NYPD.

African Americans are frequently illegally excluded from criminal jury service according to a June 2010 study released by the Equal Justice Initiative. For example in Houston County, Alabama, 8 out of 10 African Americans qualified for jury service have been struck by prosecutors from serving on death penalty cases.

Even when released from prison, race continues to dominate. A study by Professor Devah Pager of the University of Wisconsin found that 17% of white job applicants with criminal records received call backs from employers while only 5% of black job applicants with criminal records received call backs. Race is so prominent in that study that whites with criminal records actually received better treatment than blacks without criminal records!

Why are they denied mortgages disproportionately given similar credit scores to whites:



Why are black children perceived as less childlike and innocent than their white peers?

I await your easy explanations for issues such as these, that are only the tip of the iceberg for a whole myriad of problems. NONE of these problems are evidence of any one person of being racist, nor are they examples of a giant white right wing conspiracy to keep minorities down, that is a ridiculous accusation that I would never make. Neither are they examples that any individual white person necessarily has an 'easier ride' through life than a black person.

 

[bubbabgone]

It seems pretty clear that you think these people should just 'stop feeling miserable about it'. They should just suck it up and stop whining, right?



Alright how do you easily explain discrepancies between white and blacks such as:







Why are they denied mortgages disproportionately given similar credit scores to whites:

View attachment 67178361

Why are black children perceived as less childlike and innocent than their white peers?

I await your easy explanations for issues such as these, that are only the tip of the iceberg for a whole myriad of problems. NONE of these problems are evidence of any one person of being racist, nor are they examples of a giant white right wing conspiracy to keep minorities down, that is a ridiculous accusation that I would never make. Neither are they examples that any individual white person necessarily has an 'easier ride' through life than a black person.

Regarding easy explanations ... really ... think about it ... wouldn't "racism" be the "easy" explanation?
When you saw those stats you reproduced here and then did deeper research, what other explanations did you uncover before you dismissed those explanations?

 

[Grant]

It seems pretty clear that you think these people should just 'stop feeling miserable about it'. They should just suck it up and stop whining, right?

It seems pretty clear? I have written my response in the English language, which everyone using these boards should be able to understand, and you still don't get it unless you use your terms. My words are entering your brain and then immediately being reinterpreted into a language you feel you can understand, but which is not related to my intent, or the message I'm clearly conveying. You don't even know who you are quoting.

Until you understand the post you're responding to, why bother responding?

 

[Nilly]

It seems pretty clear? I have written my response in the English language, which everyone using these boards should be able to understand, and you still don't get it unless you use your terms. My words are entering your brain and then immediately being reinterpreted into a language you feel you can understand, but which is not related to my intent, or the message I'm clearly conveying. You don't even know who you are quoting.

Until you understand the post you're responding to, why bother responding?

You said that black people:

should just ignore them and move on

and when I replied that maybe instead of ignoring it, we should strive to resolve the problems, you replied with:

Then they will feel miserable a great deal of their lives.

Telling people 'tough, just live with it' is not a satisfactory solution to a problem that is deeply entrenched within our society. Sorry that you feel that way.

 

[Nilly]

Regarding easy explanations ... really ... think about it ... wouldn't "racism" be the "easy" explanation?
When you saw those stats you reproduced here and then did deeper research, what other explanations did you uncover before you dismissed those explanations?

A few hours ago you claimed there were easy explanations besides racism. Now racism is the easy explanation? I agree with you, systemic racism is the easy, and most likely correct explanation here. As for other explanations, I'm yet to 'uncover' any that bears any scrutiny.

I used to not really think that institutionalized racism (or sexism) was a thing. It was deeper research into studies like the ones I posted above that convinced me that there aren't really any other satisfactory explanations for the discrepancies demonstrated. There is no doubting that these issues do exist. If you do have a different explanation for them, please do enlighten me, I dearly wish the society we lived in didn't have such institutionalized issues so if you can show me otherwise, it would help me sleep a lot better at night.

 

[tres borrachos]

<snip>



Alright how do you easily explain discrepancies between white and blacks such as:







Why are they denied mortgages disproportionately given similar credit scores to whites:

View attachment 67178361

Do you know anything about the process of decisioning a mortgage application? It would appear not if you're using the HMDA data to charge the GSEs with racism.

PS the GSEs don't approve or decline mortgage loan applications. And a credit score isn't the only factor in mortgage underwriting. Fannie & Freddie have minimum credit score requirements for borrowers of any color.

 

[Gringo allstar]

The word racist is really a bad descriptor of a person and thus I don't like to comment on individuals as racist or not. Too much of a rabbit hole. Does saying one racist thing make someone racist? How about one racist act for which you show regret and remorse? Is racism a habit? etc

What I will say is that systemic, institutionalized racism is still very much alive and well today, even if it is more subtle than what it used to be.

Any examples you care to share in 2015? And please don't use the KKK.

 

[JANFU]

"I tell this story – I mean, even as the first lady – during that wonderfully publicized trip I took to Target, not highly disguised, the only person who came up to me in the store was a woman who asked me to help her take something off a shelf. Because she didn't see me as the first lady, she saw me as someone who could help her. Those kinds of things happen in life. So it isn't anything new."


Is she ****ing for real? That happens to me all the time because I'm ****ing tall. And I'm white.

I agree. If that is all she can come up with...................
I am white, tall, in stores people ask me as well, but I should add even though I am old, I am still good looking. Well, I should clarify that, my face does not have children running away in terror.

 

[Nilly]

Do you know anything about the process of decisioning a mortgage application? It would appear not if you're using the HMDA data to charge the GSEs with racism.

PS the GSEs don't approve or decline mortgage loan applications. And a credit score isn't the only factor in mortgage underwriting. Fannie & Freddie have minimum credit score requirements for borrowers of any color.

I don't know enough about housing data myself, but the link in my post details the calculations. The concession is made that there are limitations to HDMA data, and data from CoreLogic is used to supplement the process. GSE's don't approve or decline mortgage loan applications but lenders do sell the loans they make to GSEs in order to maintain liquidity. GSEs have their own lending standards which need to be met before they accept the loan and this is what is scrutinized here. Again, the article has more details if you are interested.

 

[Nilly]

Any examples you care to share in 2015? And please don't use the KKK.

In my post: http://www.debatepolitics.com/bias-...eal-racism-w-305-407-a-10.html#post1064159762

 

[tres borrachos]

I don't know enough about housing data myself, but the link in my post details the calculations. The concession is made that there are limitations to HDMA data, and data from CoreLogic is used to supplement the process. GSE's don't approve or decline mortgage loan applications but lenders do sell the loans they make to GSEs in order to maintain liquidity. GSEs have their own lending standards which need to be met before they accept the loan and this is what is scrutinized here. Again, the article has more details if you are interested.

Housing data has nothing to do with this. It's about lending, not housing.

You took a blog and ran with it. As I guessed, you don't understand the subject.

First off, the purpose of the MBA report was because the MBA - a lobbying group - desires to get the government (GSEs) out of the mortgage lending business, and bring private investors on the secondary market back into it. The MBA received pushback and claims that removing the GSEs from the mix would hurt minorities. The MBA's data was to show that even with the GSEs, minorities are still having their applications denied at a high rate - and by the way, the MBA wasn't implying any kind of racism.

Second, CoreLogic is a subscription based repository of general HMDA information. There are no limitations to the FFIEC's management of HMDA data. And not all banks and credit unions are HMDA reportable so the reality is that the true picture is impossible to capture. CoreLogic's data is primarily coming from the country's largest lenders and is not representative of the lending in this country as a whole

Third, the data is not for "scrutinizing the GSE standards", which I am very familiar with for professional reasons. Not all loans are sold to the GSEs, although most mortgages are written to Fannie and Freddie standards.

Fourth, lenders can only report to the FFIEC the information that is willingly provided to them by the applicants. Applicants have the legal right to decline identifying their sex, age and ethnicity. When applications are taken online (FI website, Mortgagebot, Data-Vision, etc.) there is a very high probability that the applicant declines to provide this information and the underwriter has no way of knowing the ethnicity of the applicant to deny based on "race".

Fifth, HMDA data is examined thoroughly and if there are trends that show up in a financial institution's data, they will be further scrutinized, and penalties include fines, public relations nightmares, and potential loss of charter.

Most importantly, mortgage underwriters don't indiscriminately deny loans to applicants because they're black. That's why Reg C exists. There are many reasons why mortgage loan applications are declined, and color isn't one of them.

Blogs like the one you posted are dangerous. It gives people a very small piece of selective information that sends them off thinking something that isn't true.

 

[bubbabgone]

A few hours ago you claimed there were easy explanations besides racism. Now racism is the easy explanation? I agree with you, systemic racism is the easy, and most likely correct explanation here.

As for other explanations, I'm yet to 'uncover' any that bears any scrutiny.

I used to not really think that institutionalized racism (or sexism) was a thing.

It was deeper research into studies like the ones I posted above that convinced me that there aren't really any other satisfactory explanations for the discrepancies demonstrated.

There is no doubting that these issues do exist. If you do have a different explanation for them, please do enlighten me, I dearly wish the society we lived in didn't have such institutionalized issues so if you can show me otherwise, it would help me sleep a lot better at night.

That's what I asked you, what was the deep research you say you did before accepting what metrotrends appeared to conclude was purely racial, and what did your deeper research indicate that you concluded could be dismissed?

After all, the author of the chart for the Urban Institute you produced (from June 5th) wrote a followup (also for the Urban Institute from June 6th) in which he said ...

"It is important to note, however, that we do not know whether the clear racial discrepancy among those with weaker credit is due to variations in treatment of applicants with the same credit profile (i.e., racial discrimination) or variations in the level of credit weakness among these groups (i.e., minority applicants have weaker credit profiles than white applicants). We were not able to fully test either hypothesis, since the credit profile distribution of the mortgage applicants is unknown."]

Pretty much comes right out and says you shouldn't conclude what you did.

Weaker credit or racial discrimination: the data are unclear

I'd like to think you didn't just figure "Cool, I'm going with it", but that's what you did, isn't it.
And despite your claim of deep research, you checked no further, did you.
boo hiss.

 

[Nilly]

Housing data has nothing to do with this. It's about lending, not housing....

I'd like to think you didn't just figure "Cool, I'm going with it", but that's what you did, isn't it.
And despite your claim of deep research, you checked no further, did you.
boo hiss.

I regret not knowing the ins and outs of the data before posting it here, but felt that the sources I used were trustworthy enough to warrant inclusion in my post. Tres, I wasn't aware of all the details that you posted (I suspect I would have to read quite a few books to get the full knowledge of that).

Bubba, I was actually aware of the second article that you brought up, and while it does say that the data are unclear, it still acknowledges that the racial disparity is there, just that that particular study cannot narrow down the cause. The reason I 'went with it' was because I had done deeper research. That article is not the only source suggesting mortgage discrimination, it was just the one with the prettiest picture. There are numerous other studies by a variety of institutions (I will link them at the bottom of this post, with the institution the author is a part of/represents). That they point to similar conclusions, to me, is in indicator that something is afoot.

Again, I don't have specialist knowledge in this area and because I don't I have no way of defending these papers, or the HMDA data used in them, I'll concede their practical use in my argument. However, as I said in an earlier post, mortgage discrimination is just one of a myriad of issues pointing to a difference in outcome for people of colour even under controlled circumstances. We still have matters of psychology, incarceration rates, employment rates etc etc etc.

University of Minnesote - https://www.law.umn.edu/uploads/b2/...359a7c173d4/7a_Communities_in_Crisis-FULL.pdf
University of Georgia - 21 Hofstra Law Review 1992-1993 Mortgage Discrimination: Paperwork and Prohibitions Prove Insufficient-Is it Time for Simplification and Incentives
Economic Policy Institute - A comment on Bank of America/Countrywide
American Economic Association - http://econ2.econ.iastate.edu/class...nce on Discrimination in Mortgage Lending.pdf
New York University - http://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1077&context=mjlr
The GreenLining Institute - https://ideas.repec.org/p/fip/fedfcw/2009-09.html
Duke University - JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
University of Connecticut / University of Syracuse - https://ideas.repec.org/b/mtp/titles/0262182289.html
Urban Institute (Different from original article) - Mortgage Lending Discrimination: A Review of Existing Evidence