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Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348, W:350]

re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

Yay, another balls-ammo disciple.

It is Yeah.


It wasn't even close to 9+g's bub. I dare you to show the math.

This thread is about Flight 93, not Flight 77. However, regarding Flight 77 exceeding its structural limits, why not review the work done on this particular matter already. This presentation was given by Calum Douglas, on what the NTSB calls the Flight Data Recorder recovered from Flight 77 at the Pentagon. If you do not understand the parameters of a Flight Data Recorder, or how Calum Douglas, derives his values, then I can open up another thread on Flight 77 and answer your question there.

By the way, I was also a Test Pilot. So, I understand this FDR data and I know that it demonstrates that the aircraft modeled within the data cannot possibly have been from the same Boeing 757-200 the government alleges impacted the Pentagon on September 11th, 2001. We can cover the math, the flight physics and the flight envelope questions at your request in another thread. For now, get yourself up to speed on the FDR vouched for by the NTSB and try to get your head around WHY it makes little to no sense at all, given the official story about what hit the Pentagon.





Just like how the engines aren't what you claim they are, you are once again wrong. Aren't you sick of getting your *** handed to you on stuff like this yet?

Explain the Redox Reaction seen here and tell me how it is possible for Redox to ensue mere hours after impact. Also, explain why the intake is facing up and buried in the dirt, when the aircraft allegedly punched a hole in the ground with the intakes facing down. How did the engines manage to stop in mid-air, rotate a full 180-degrees while the rest of the aircraft disappeared into the earth and then drill a hole for themselves - backwards?

zxkvbq.jpg


This is what an RB211-535 looks like wrecked and fully detached from the engine nacelle:

2hy9rfq.jpg



This is what an RB211-535 looks like fully intact:

28a6g5x.jpg


Please explain the size differential of the intake and forward compressor sections of each engine and explain why the "official" photo above shows a diameter much smaller than the diameter of any photo below it, showing what a real RB211-535 actually looks like?

We don't get a lot of photos of any recovered physical components of Flight 93, but what we do get clearly points to something other than a Boeing 757-222 as being the object that struck the earth in Shanksville, PA. We can do a more in-depth examination of the component parts seen in the first picture above after you have schooled yourself on these simple question - for which there has never been a good answer from the government.



Oh and thanks for the warning on those pics you posted. ****ing real classy to (img) tag those... not to mention that you're using those images to promote your idiotic conspiracy nonsense. Yeah, I'm sure you're really crying and "don't like doing this". :roll:

If you were not so completely deluded about what's going on here, I'd actually comment further. People like you don't want to see the real truth behind commercial airline disasters, so you claim that posting such pictures is not "classy."

911, is not classy either. It was very nasty business - and I do mean business, because it lead to the capture of billions of dollars in PSA contracts still flowing out of Iraq, to this very day.

Wake up.
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

more truther drivel....no one is banning news reports and your Mark Bingham slur is just more nonsense that has been explained.

Really? So, any excuse is good enough for you, right? When was the last time you called your mom and said, "Hello, Mom! This is Sababa Last Name?"


Besides there was airliner debris,

Simple mindedness won't solve this problem. Airliner debris can be brought in on any airborne platform. The question is not whether they recovered "airliner debris," the question is whether or not the airliner debris they recovered is commensurate with that expected to be found at a commercial heavy crash site with the kinetic profile stipulated by the official story. To that question the answer has always been a resounding no, as the photos, pictures and eye witness testimony of the NON-federal government employees who responded FIRST to the scene testifies.

...they found the black box

They also found a black box at the Pentagon and its data proved that the aircraft modeled in the box could not have possibly been at the Pentagon at the same time and on the same day. So, finding a black box did nothing but place another gaping hole inside the official story.

...and frankly your appeal to your pilot's license giving you magically insight is silly.

Quite frankly, I don't give a damn about your opinion of my qualifications. My qualifications are my qualifications, regardless of your opinion about them. Now, you can learn something here from someone who has experience from the flight deck of aircraft just like those being discussed, or you can tuck and run because you don't like my command of the subject matter. If I am going to sit and read someone's opinion about such matters, then I want to know that the individual I am reading at least has a background sufficient to tell me something of value that I might not already know.

Its your call - I don't have an axe to grind nor an ego to bruise here. I'm trying to help people understand the "weapons" used on 911 and those weapons happen to be something that I have a bit of experience with over the years.


You have no evidence and are lying to perpetuate your nonsense.

Thus, you have no eyes to see the evidence with. You can look at photos and video showing you nothing resembling a Boeing 757-222 crash site, yet you pine away about "conspiracy theories" not realizing that YOU are contributing to the biggest conspiracy theory of all: The Official Story.

You can stick your head in the same dirt that they dug for the engine that was showing rust in the photograph they released if you want to, but it will not educate you on this subject - nor will it help you to "see" that aircraft engines don't undergo Redox Reaction mere hours after being submerged in dirt.
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

Really? So, any excuse is good enough for you, right? When was the last time you called your mom and said, "Hello, Mom! This is Sababa Last Name?"

Well since my mom is dead it has been a while. But when I would introduce myself over the phone a lot I would do it.




Simple mindedness won't solve this problem.
Funny that is all you are bringing.

Airliner debris can be brought in on any airborne platform. The question is not whether they recovered "airliner debris," the question is whether or not the airliner debris they recovered is commensurate with that expected to be found at a commercial heavy crash site with the kinetic profile stipulated by the official story. To that question the answer has always been a resounding no, as the photos, pictures and eye witness testimony of the NON-federal government employees who responded FIRST to the scene testifies.

Seriously???? So no crash and the government recreated the materials. So you have the balls to call me simple minded and yet concoct this with no evidence.



They also found a black box at the Pentagon and its data proved that the aircraft modeled in the box could not have possibly been at the Pentagon at the same time and on the same day. So, finding a black box did nothing but place another gaping hole inside the official story.
what the hell are you talking about.



Quite frankly, I don't give a damn about your opinion of my qualifications. My qualificationsare my qualifications, regardless of your opinion about them. Now, you can learn something here from someone who has experience from the flight deck of aircraft just like those being discussed, or you can tuck and run because you don't like my command of the subject matter. If I am going to sit and read someone's opinion about such matters, then I want to know that the individual I am reading at least has a background sufficient to tell me something of value that I might not already know.

You have no command of the subject. In fact you are simply spewing nonsense.

Its your call - I don't have an axe to grind nor an ego to bruise here. I'm trying to help people understand the "weapons" used on 911 and those weapons happen to be something that I have a bit of experience with over the years.

19 terrorists hijacked airplanes and attempted to fly them into buildings they had chosen in advance. 3 were successful, one went down hard in rural PA. Those are facts you have done nothing to dispute.


Thus, you have no eyes to see the evidence with. You can look at photos and video showing you nothing resembling a Boeing 757-222 crash site, yet you pine away about "conspiracy theories" not realizing that YOU are contributing to the biggest conspiracy theory of all: The Official Story.

Except you reject any evidence that supports that story and then says it is a fabrication.

You can stick your head in the same dirt that they dug for the engine that was showing rust in the photograph they released if you want to, but it will not educate you on this subject - nor will it help you to "see" that aircraft engines don't undergo Redox Reaction mere hours after being submerged in dirt.

More talking out of your ass......
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

Notice his username. He claims that the engines were not the right type for the 9/11 planes, and got embarrassed here years ago with photo evidence that proved him completely wrong.

Making up stories after the fact to prove a point in the present doesn't serve you or anyone else well. Comments that have no bearing and no link to what I said, or what anyone else said, or what I provided or what anyone else produced, don't equate your having established any truth. If you can produce a link to photo evidence that proved me completely wrong, then that would be a link worth reading, because no one on this forum (or anywhere else for that matter) proved anything I have posted as being incorrect, inaccurate or factually flawed.

So, instead of belting out over-broad commentary with no real connection to facts and then using that as a pivot point for making some ridiculous comment about the messenger - why not provide the link to the actual threads.


Now he's some "super expert" that's flown every type of plane ever built, yet somehow can't comprehend that slow moving crash landings where the pilot was trying to save lives will look different than a suicidal jihadist smashing a plane nose first straight into the ground at high speed.

The utter and shear stupidity of that comment is beyond telling. The evidence is obviously not something you've bothered to research. Flight 93, according to the FDR, anything but "slow moving." There are no "slow moving" airborne commercial airframes in the near 200,000lb category, approaching the earth with its nose down at a near 40-degree negative angle of attack. So, your entire statement just proves that you don't have a grip on the facts.

Whether a Jihadist or an experienced pilot was in control of the aircraft, any Boeing 757-222 carrying that flight attitude at speeds reported to be true by the "official story," should leave a debris field commensurate with its kinetic energy profile at impact. That is the common sense truth that blind people who can't get over the fact that their government attacked them on September 11th, 2001, can't seem to get beyond.

Furthermore, to demonstrate the absurdity of your commentary, if the aircraft was "slow moving" (which it was clearly not according to the official story) at impact, then the debris field would have by definition been considerably wider and considerably more dense with recoverable material, mainly human remains and high survivability aircraft components. Yet, we see virtually NONE of that with Flight 93.

Shanksville, is the smoking gun - like it or not.
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

Each and every piece of the 9/11 story ( that is the official bit )
falls apart upon close examination, be it the "collapse" of skyscrapers,
or the aircraft crashes, or the story of the crazy Arab hijackers,
the whole story is exactly that, only a story.

and once critical mass of citizens is reached, that is of people
who realize that there is a serious problem here, then citizens
can exercise their power, I do not advocate a mob of people with
pitchforks & touches taking to the streets. We have power and
in a lot of ways that does not involve even having to violate the law
or do anything destructive. First things first, people need to get it.
People need to see that there is something terribly wrong with this picture.
 
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re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

pw4000.

You list quite the resume, (yet no one validate it).
imo, you post mostly personal opinions backed up with partial facts and lots of questions.

Funny how you ask for very detailed explanations on why some part was found a certain way.
Yet when asked of other truthers to explain in detail how something was done, the response is it doesn't matter, We know the govt is wrong.

So what is your opinion of what was found at Shanksville?
What happened to the airliner and passengers?

IMO, you have a long way to go to show you are correct.
By the way, the more personal insults, the less one may think of your posts.
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

PW4000,

In reading your list of qualifications, you would seem to be the right kind of person to pursue this issue. You obviously have relevant aviation experience, and you are passionate about the subject. You are convinced that Shanksville is the smoking gun. OK, you might be onto something.

My question for you, is what is your plan? What are you going to do about it? Are you going to go beyond just asking questions, and actually produce some answers? If you produce some solid incriminating answers, do you have a plan regarding what you will then do with this vital information?

What are you prepared to do?
 
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re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

Beefheart

Do you see the government as beneficent?

Yes and no...but I don't need to use them as a boogieman to pin every conspiracy on and obsess about.
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

Yes and no...but I don't need to use them as a boogieman to pin every conspiracy on and obsess about.

I'm not talking about pinning anything on "The Government"
there are a few rogue individuals who are not worthy of positions
within the Bureaucracy and therefore should be held accountable for their actions.

Just as an example, the NYC police commissioner went on record saying that
there had been no explosives used to destroy the towers, when in fact no
testing for any explosive or explosive by-product had been done, so a public
official went on record making an entirely unsupported assertion.
and throughout the whole fiasco, there are examples of people on the
public pay-roll who either where grossly derelict in their duties or demonstrated
colossal incompetence and nobody got so much as a reprimand for it.

there is something VERY wrong with this picture!
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

I'm not talking about pinning anything on "The Government"
there are a few rogue individuals who are not worthy of positions
within the Bureaucracy and therefore should be held accountable for their actions.

Just as an example, the NYC police commissioner went on record saying that
there had been no explosives used to destroy the towers, when in fact no
testing for any explosive or explosive by-product had been done, so a public
official went on record making an entirely unsupported assertion.
and throughout the whole fiasco, there are examples of people on the
public pay-roll who either where grossly derelict in their duties or demonstrated
colossal incompetence and nobody got so much as a reprimand for it.

there is something VERY wrong with this picture!

There is something very wrong with your unending obsession for conspiracies.

Unhealthy for you, try living in the real world, where you are responsible for yourself and don't have to blame fraudulent conspiracies for everything.
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

...the NYC police commissioner went on record saying that
there had been no explosives used to destroy the towers,...
He was correct.
when in fact no testing for any explosive or explosive by-product had been done, so a public
official went on record making an entirely unsupported assertion.
That emphasised nonsense is false every time you make the assertion. It will not become true through repetition.
...and throughout the whole fiasco, there are examples of people on the
public pay-roll who either where grossly derelict in their duties or demonstrated colossal incompetence and nobody got so much as a reprimand for it.
Whether your hyperbole is warranted or not IMO it is inconceivable that the could be zero LIHOOI and zero bits of LIHOP. Its also highly probable there were bits of MIHOP - note the "bits of" qualifiers.

The greatest tactical error of the truth movement has been the focus on false technical claims such as CD at WTC - and treating political/behavioural issues as of secondary or lesser importance. The genuine concerns of organisations such as AE911 are in the political domain. Why do they, and most other truther spokespersons, throw away credibility by persisting in false technical claims?
there is something VERY wrong with this picture!
Begging the "VERY" hyperbole there is probably a lot of political/behavioural issues which don't seem to have been addressed. They certainly haven't featured prominently in the forum discussion medium. There also certainly a lot wrong with the focus of truth movement claims as stated earlier.
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

It is Yeah.

Then have fun with your life of worthlessness. Following Captain booby and his small fringe of internet socks won't get you anywhere if you want real TRUTH.

Oh wait. That's what you fools want. You don't want answers... you want this crap to drag on forever so you can sell stupid conspiro-tard DVD's and p4t branded baby shirts or dogbowls.
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

Also, explain why the intake is facing up and buried in the dirt, when the aircraft allegedly punched a hole in the ground with the intakes facing down. How did the engines manage to stop in mid-air, rotate a full 180-degrees while the rest of the aircraft disappeared into the earth and then drill a hole for themselves - backwards?

Very simple for somebody with their head not wedged firmly up their backside. That is the exhaust side of that turbine assembly. Not the intake side that your truther brain sees it as.

eta - Even if it WAS the intake facing up (which it isn't), it is 100% plausible that the engine rotated on it's way into the ground if the plane came in at even a SLIGHT angle. Go take a physics class. Try to expand your brain a little. You are obviously not properly equipped to figure out complex problems properly.
 
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re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

Perfect example of what it means to be a truther that can't figure out JACK ****ING ****:

Also, explain why the intake is facing up and buried in the dirt, when the aircraft allegedly punched a hole in the ground with the intakes facing down.

explain why the "official" photo above shows a diameter much smaller than the diameter of any photo below it, showing what a real RB211-535 actually looks like?

Translation:

"Oh hey, I'm a truther and I can't figure out why this one picture I found doesn't match this other one."

Answer: They are pics of different parts.

Truther: But but but this one is the intake and it's facing up. The plane would have to 180* and THEN hit the ground.

Answer: No, it's the other side of the turbine.

Truther: But the diameter doesn't even match these pics of the intake side of a fully assembled RB211.

Answer: No **** sherlock. It doesn't match because it's not the ****ing intake side of the ****ing RB211. It's the ****ing exhaust side. Just like it should be.


Go troll somewhere else PFTroll.
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

I'm not talking about pinning anything on "The Government"
there are a few rogue individuals who are not worthy of positions
within the Bureaucracy and therefore should be held accountable for their actions.

Just as an example, the NYC police commissioner went on record saying that
there had been no explosives used to destroy the towers, when in fact no
testing for any explosive or explosive by-product had been done, so a public
official went on record making an entirely unsupported assertion.
and throughout the whole fiasco, there are examples of people on the
public pay-roll who either where grossly derelict in their duties or demonstrated
colossal incompetence and nobody got so much as a reprimand for it.

Why does there need to be a test for explosive residue when there is no evidence at all that any sort of explosive of any kind was used?

there is something VERY wrong with this picture!

Yes, and you will find it looking in the mirror.
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

PW4000,

In reading your list of qualifications, you would seem to be the right kind of person to pursue this issue. You obviously have relevant aviation experience, and you are passionate about the subject. You are convinced that Shanksville is the smoking gun. OK, you might be onto something.

My question for you, is what is your plan? What are you going to do about it? Are you going to go beyond just asking questions, and actually produce some answers? If you produce some solid incriminating answers, do you have a plan regarding what you will then do with this vital information?

What are you prepared to do?

Bolded is categorically wrong.
Being a pilot does not make one an expert on most of what truthers claim about 911.
Pilots do not have special knowledge about FDR`s ask someone who designs them, that info
Pilots do not have special knowledge about RADAR, heck even ATCs don’t have special knowledge about how they are built they only use them, ask someone who designs the systems
Pilots do not have special knowledge about the construction of their aircraft; ask the people who built them.
Pilots do not have special knowledge about aircraft accidents and what they look like, ask crash investigators.
etc. etc.
Where pilots do have knowledge are the areas that truthers generally avoid now. The nonsense about losing altitude in steep turns, truthers pretended it is hard but even a student pilot will tell you it requires skill NOT to lose altitude in a steep turn. Truthers have also claimed that ground effect would make it impossible/extremely difficult to fly a B757 at high speed near the ground. This is patently false as any pilot who isn’t a truther could tell you. It is interesting that our resident "flight instructor" who has made this claim refuses to even try and explain it (because he knows it is false)
So the ONLY 911 claims made by truthers who "claim" to be pilots, that they actually could pretend to have any "special" knowledge in is total BS and largely no longer talked about by them.

Claiming that they are pilots and "know" or should be considered "experts" about this stuff is like asking a guy with a drivers licence talking extremely technical points about the car he drives.
Does having a drivers licence and driving a car with a GPS mean you know exactly how GPS works and all the technical specs and ways to fool it are?
Does having a drivers licence make you an expert at combustion chamber design?
Does having a drivers licence mean you know exactly how tires are built and what their exact limits are?
Does having a drivers licence mean you know exactly how the brakes or suspension works and what their limits are?
Sure certain drivers will have more knowledge than others about some of these, especially professional racers but it doesn’t make them experts.

Long post but to sum up, claiming you are a pilot on an internet forum is a very very weak appeal to authority and means nothing.
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

Why does there need to be a test for explosive residue when there is no evidence at all that any sort of explosive of any kind was used?



Yes, and you will find it looking in the mirror.

Dont forget if they actually tested for explosive residue truthers would claim victory. They would say the results were falsified, why would they even test for explosives unless they knew they were used.
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

I see the government as 2.8 million American citizens who are pursuing a career that serves the American public. They are comprised of your neighbors and mine.

You see them as some covert entity continually coming up with evil plans that only the best and brightest among us can spot. People like you and Koko. Meanwhile the rest of the poplation lives blindly on, while plots that will destroy us all, are being hatched. Hwa hah hah :twisted:

Thanks for a straight answer.

It is interesting that while I asked you a question, you assume things about my views that you've never asked about. Without asking my views, you delude yourself into believing that you know my views. But then you delude yourself into believing that office furniture fires can cause what was observed at WTC.

Anybody who believes in the beneficence of government is naïve as heck, or rather prejudiced.

I follow George Washington's lead--government is like fire, a useful tool but a fearsome master. I love my country, but do not trust at all my country's government.
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

If there was nothing at Shanksville, what were the first responders responding to? Very simple logic makes the whole truther house of cards collapse.


All these posts and still no answer for that, or the multitudes of al Qaeda members and affiliates that admitted their culpability. To listen to a truther, there is no Salafi terrorism whatsoever. It's just made up.

The first responders were out there because somebody on the dispatch radio TOLD them to go there.

And in fact, there was SOMETHING at Shanksville, no doubt.

But that something was NOT a Boeing. See the difference?
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

There is something very wrong with your unending obsession for conspiracies.

Unhealthy for you, try living in the real world, where you are responsible for yourself and don't have to blame fraudulent conspiracies for everything.

It is not an unending obsession with conspiracies Beefheart, it is the observation that the facts and evidence contradict, DO NOT SUPPORT, the official story.

See the difference?

He and I are curious about what really happened, given that the forensic evidence does not support the official theory.
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

The first responders were out there because somebody on the dispatch radio TOLD them to go there.

And in fact, there was SOMETHING at Shanksville, no doubt.

But that something was NOT a Boeing. See the difference?

Again HD ALL the evidence proves it was a Boeing. NO evidence poitns to the contrary.
You contiue to peddle nonsesne based on you complete and total lack of knowledge in the field of aviation.

BTW will you ever try and explain how ground effect was a factor on 911?
waiting...... waiting....... waiting......
Yup you guessed it folks our resident "flight instructor" cannot/will not answer a simpel question.
Why is that? Could it be because he doesnt know the answer? Or is it becausse he knows his comments were wrong?
You decide folks either way it is just HD being HD
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

It is not an unending obsession with conspiracies Beefheart, it is the observation that the facts and evidence contradict, DO NOT SUPPORT, the official story.

See the difference?

He and I are curious about what really happened, given that the forensic evidence does not support the official theory.

Forensic evidence is 100% proof it was the stated aircraft that crashed all your nonsense will not change tha fact.
Got ground effect HD?
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

Again HD ALL the evidence proves it was a Boeing. NO evidence poitns to the contrary.
You contiue to peddle nonsesne based on you complete and total lack of knowledge in the field of aviation.

BTW will you ever try and explain how ground effect was a factor on 911?
waiting...... waiting....... waiting......
Yup you guessed it folks our resident "flight instructor" cannot/will not answer a simpel question.
Why is that? Could it be because he doesnt know the answer? Or is it becausse he knows his comments were wrong?
You decide folks either way it is just HD being HD

Yet you are unable to show us that Boeing, eh? It seems that if one were really there, somebody would have seen it, somebody would have been able to get a picture of it.

But all you can produce are some staged pictures presented at the Kangaroo Trial conducted by the US Dept of Justus. How embarrassing.
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

Yet you are unable to show us that Boeing, eh? It seems that if one were really there, somebody would have seen it, somebody would have been able to get a picture of it.

But all you can produce are some staged pictures presented at the Kangaroo Trial conducted by the US Dept of Justus. How embarrassing.

You have been shown HD vust you refuse to accept reality.
You are too far in denial to ever accept reality. Enjoy the Kool-Aid
 
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