Raped 9-Year-Old Has Abortion

[Orion]

In the US, where abortion is legal, there are 1.3 million legal abortions. According to Guttmacher, .3% of those receiving legal abortions in the US have to be hospitalized due to supposedly "safe" legal abortions. Unless my math is wrong (and perhaps someone more confident with numbers should check me) that's almost 400,000--DOUBLE Brazil's. Where are more women harmed by "botched" abortions?

1.3 million x 0.3% = 39,000... that is far less than Brazil, and I would expect as such given the better medical facilities in the United States.

Right--after pro-aborts doctor shopped for her

That is politics. Fact is, she had a right to seek one. The fact that people lead her to a place that acknowledged her rights as a Brazilian is incidental. She and her family wanted her to have one, so they were already going down that path.

What part annoys you more? The fact that a pro-choice group helped her, or that she was exercising her rights? Either way, both instances are legal.

 

[UtahBill]

1.3 million x 0.3% = 39,000... that is far less than Brazil, and I would expect as such given the better medical facilities in the United States.



That is politics. Fact is, she had a right to seek one. The fact that people lead her to a place that acknowledged her rights as a Brazilian is incidental. She and her family wanted her to have one, so they were already going down that path.

What part annoys you more? The fact that a pro-choice group helped her, or that she was exercising her rights? Either way, both instances are legal.

This may be the most important issue from the church's viewpoint, the church used to have influence with govt nearly everywhere, but now there are only a few countries that let the church have substantail influence.
That is how it should be. The church should have NO legal standing in forming the laws of the land. Let the church call it a moral issue and excommunicate members, the church and the members will both be better off for it...

 

[OKgrannie]

In the US, where abortion is legal, there are 1.3 million legal abortions. According to Guttmacher, .3% of those receiving legal abortions in the US have to be hospitalized due to supposedly "safe" legal abortions. Unless my math is wrong (and perhaps someone more confident with numbers should check me) that's almost 400,000--DOUBLE Brazil's. Where are more women harmed by "botched" abortions?

I'm not good at math, but I figure it at less than 4,000. You did say .3%? And that's with your inflated abortion numbers.

These statistics include all but California, New Hampshire and Louisiana. If your statistics were correct there would have to be almost 500,000 abortions in those 3 states annually.

Abortion in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Felicity]

1.3 million x 0.3% = 39,000... that is far less than Brazil, and I would expect as such given the better medical facilities in the United States.

The zeros always give me a headache:3oops:

That is politics. Fact is, she had a right to seek one. The fact that people lead her to a place that acknowledged her rights as a Brazilian is incidental. She and her family wanted her to have one, so they were already going down that path.

What part annoys you more? The fact that a pro-choice group helped her, or that she was exercising her rights? Either way, both instances are legal.

What annoys me is how the Church is being portrayed in the incident where it is merely doing her job in spiritual guidance. What is "legal" is not always morally correct. The "politics" in Brazil surrounding this issue needs to bash the Church's moral guidance in order to further its political agenda because so many Brazilians are Catholic and CARE what the Church has to say.

 

[Felicity]

I'm not good at math, but I figure it at less than 4,000. You did say .3%?

You may not be good at math, but I suck. I totally get how some people struggle with reading/writing anxiety because I SEE a decimal point and a percent sign and my heart beats a little funny.:shock:

 

[Orion]

This may be the most important issue from the church's viewpoint, the church used to have influence with govt nearly everywhere, but now there are only a few countries that let the church have substantail influence.
That is how it should be. The church should have NO legal standing in forming the laws of the land. Let the church call it a moral issue and excommunicate members, the church and the members will both be better off for it...

I would normally agree, but Brazil's population is mostly Catholic and therefore the law is sometimes a defacto reflection of the Vatican's beliefs. Abortion used to be banned altogether there until the rape and therapy stipulations made it into law. I think it's because when it comes to health risks to the woman and rape victims, even Catholics are split on the issue... so the government must take a pro-choice stance in regards to those two factors.

I came across another tidbit in my research, and that was that the Brazilian government is currently deliberating on an amendment to allow abortions for severely deformed fetuses (i.e. with partial skulls, and what not). Anti-choice groups are fighting this, but it is likely to pass into law.

Where countries can afford to illegalize abortion, the Catholic Church can usually be obeyed... but somewhere like Brazil that has a comparative population to the U.S., yet only a select percentage hold most of the wealth, there is a dire need for further reproductive choices. I think, given that, social policy is gradually erroding the Church's stance.

 

[Orion]

The zeros always give me a headache:3oops:

No worries.

What annoys me is how the Church is being portrayed in the incident where it is merely doing her job in spiritual guidance. What is "legal" is not always morally correct. The "politics" in Brazil surrounding this issue needs to bash the Church's moral guidance in order to further its political agenda because so many Brazilians are Catholic and CARE what the Church has to say.

I think in all fairness that this particular story has been taken advantage of by both angles simply due to the age of the girl. If the statistic is that 200,000 illegal abortions require hospitalization each year, then imagine how many legal ones there are? Yet this story gets the lime light. The Church has tried to weigh in on the decision, and the pro-choice groups have tried to counter-act the Church by stepping in themselves.

I can understand where both sides are coming from, but in the end I must defer to Brazilian law. There may be something questionable about the pro-choice group expediting the process, but in the end it was legal; as for the Church getting involved, it wasn't really relevant in the first place since the case was already going through due process. But I guess the Church is obligated to make such announcements in a Catholic based country.

 

[Arcana XV]

The zeros always give me a headache:3oops:

What annoys me is how the Church is being portrayed in the incident where it is merely doing her job in spiritual guidance. What is "legal" is not always morally correct. The "politics" in Brazil surrounding this issue needs to bash the Church's moral guidance in order to further its political agenda because so many Brazilians are Catholic and CARE what the Church has to say.

Actually they did a lot more than just try to provide spiritual guidance. They actually threatened to press legal charges against the mother for homicide. That's just messed up.

Brazilian archbishop embroiled in abortion row after child's rape - The Irish Times - Fri, Mar 06, 2009

Before the abortion was carried out the archdiocese’s lawyers threatened to charge the mother with homicide, citing the Brazilian constitution’s guarantee to the right to life.

 

[OKgrannie]

You may not be good at math, but I suck. I totally get how some people struggle with reading/writing anxiety because I SEE a decimal point and a percent sign and my heart beats a little funny.:shock:

I sympathize. Where's a mathematician when you need one? I guess some of us are NOT smarter than a 5th grader.

 

[danarhea]

What the Mother and Daughter must be going through

FOXNews.com - Brazil Church Excommunicates Mom, Doctors After Raped 9-Year-Old Has Abortion - International News | News of the World | Middle East News | Europe News

The daughter would have died, had she not had the abortion, and the Catholic church does an excommunication? Is this really the act of a Church that truly represents God? I think not.

Seems to me that real issue here is not excommunication but exorcism. The Catholic church needs an exorcism, and all the devils and demons within the church cast out. I mean, from sentencing mothers, who wish to save their children from death, to eternity in Hell, to protecting child molesting priests for decades, I see nothing Godly here. Perhaps, when some of these hypocrites meet St. Peter at the gate, God will do an excommunication of his own, and abort the Catholic Church from Heaven.

 

[talloulou]

I understand the Catholic Church's life first motto. I understand their take on abortion and for the most part share it.

However this was a 9 year old gal. It's incredible to me that the church went so far as to excommunicate this gal's mother while simultaneously NOT excommunicating the father that impregnated her!!!!!

Had the church simply spoken out against the abortion I'd think little of it. But this:

The controversy represents a PR nightmare for the Vatican. The unnamed girl's mother and doctors were excommunicated for agreeing to Wednesday's emergency abortion yet the Church has not taken formal steps against the stepfather, who is in custody. Jose Cardoso Sobrinho, the conservative regional archbishop for Pernambuco where the girl was rushed to hospital, has said that the man would not be thrown out of the Church, because although he had allegedly committed "a heinous crime", the Church took the view that "the abortion, the elimination of an innocent life, was more serious".

Church excommunicates mother of 9-year-old rape victim – but not accused rapist - World news, News - Belfasttelegraph.co.uk

is an unforgivable thing to be said. To suggest that the mother who took her 9 year old for an abortion is in some way WORSE AND LESS DESERVING OF CHURCH than some pig bastard child molesting I diddle my own daughter cretin monster of a man is just indefensible.

 

[Felicity]

Actually they did a lot more than just try to provide spiritual guidance. They actually threatened to press legal charges against the mother for homicide. That's just messed up.

Brazilian archbishop embroiled in abortion row after child's rape - The Irish Times - Fri, Mar 06, 2009

Did they do it? Lawyers are all talk to achieve their client's interest.

Who brought the story to the news so it could be plastered internationally? My money goes that it certainly WASN'T the Catholic Church or her lawyers.

 

[talloulou]

Did they do it? Lawyers are all talk to achieve their client's interest.

Who brought the story to the news so it could be plastered internationally? My money goes that it certainly WASN'T the Catholic Church or her lawyers.

Still though - forget the church's stance on abortion for a minute. They went so far as to have one of their representatives explain for the media why the gal's mother deserves to be banned from the church while the father does not.

Defend that Felicity because in my mind the fact that the church put out such a statement is just indefensible. Like myself, I'm sure the mother is only too happy to be rid of the church.

 

[Felicity]

I understand the Catholic Church's life first motto. I understand their take on abortion and for the most part share it.

However this was a 9 year old gal. It's incredible to me that the church went so far as to excommunicate this gal's mother while simultaneously NOT excommunicating the father that impregnated her!!!!!

Had the church simply spoken out against the abortion I'd think little of it. But this:



is an unforgivable thing to be said. To suggest that the mother who took her 9 year old for an abortion is in some way WORSE AND LESS DESERVING OF CHURCH than some pig bastard child molesting I diddle my own daughter cretin monster of a man is just indefensible.

His grave sin ALREADY "excommunicated" him--He too needs to seek absolution. The mother and the doctors in a politically charged battle of ideologies were being promoted as having done something heroic. It may have been necessary at some future date, but the Church has to make the point that waiting for a necessity is paramount so as not to seem to assent to a slippery slope that will end up with "abortion on demand" like we have here in the US. Moral ambiguity is what leads to confusion on issues.

 

[Felicity]

Still though - forget the church's stance on abortion for a minute. They went so far as to have one of their representatives explain for the media why the gal's mother deserves to be banned from the church while the father does not.

Defend that Felicity because in my mind the fact that the church put out such a statement is just indefensible. Like myself, I'm sure the mother is only too happy to be rid of the church.

So the Church is responsible for something a lawyer says? Legal representatives are not the Church. The Church did not "put out the statement" they she was going to charge anyone with homicide.

The father ALREADY is outside the Church by his mortal sin. See above--I explained. Why aren't you as disgusted with the use 'em and leave 'em pro-aborts who a happy to plaster her tragedy everywhere, and use the media as a tool for their agenda?

When this all fades away--the Church will still be there for her.

 

[talloulou]

His grave sin ALREADY "excommunicated" him--He too needs to seek absolution. The mother and the doctors in a politically charged battle of ideologies were being promoted as having done something heroic. It may have been necessary at some future date, but the Church has to make the point that waiting for a necessity is paramount so as not to seem to assent to a slippery slope that will end up with "abortion on demand" like we have here in the US. Moral ambiguity is what leads to confusion on issues.

Absolutely not. Read the link I posted. The archbishop went out of his way to explicitly state that while the mother was tossed from the church the father will NOT BE EXCOMMUNICATED because what he did- diddling his daughter - is not nearly as serious. In other words the monster deserves church while a desperate mother trying to help her 9 year old daughter does not.

Unforgivable statement from the church and completely indefensible. Had they simply spoken out against the abortion I'd be like, "yeah, whatever...that's the Catholic Church. Anti-abortion is who they are!"

But to go so far as to make a direct comparison between the monster and the mother and insinuate that the monster is more deserving of church and thus won't be excommunicated while mom was tossed out on her rear!!!:doh

Then again I've known for a long time that the church is a house of men and some of them are absolute tards which is why I no longer pay organized religion any mind.

 

[jallman]

The zeros always give me a headache:3oops:

What annoys me is how the Church is being portrayed in the incident where it is merely doing her job in spiritual guidance. What is "legal" is not always morally correct. The "politics" in Brazil surrounding this issue needs to bash the Church's moral guidance in order to further its political agenda because so many Brazilians are Catholic and CARE what the Church has to say.

So, felicity, if I could point something out...what part of the Church doing it's job in spiritual guidance involves getting the diocese lawyers to threaten the woman with homocide charges if she doesn't comply?

That seems like a very bad maneuver on the diocese's part and a refusal to submit to the law of the land when it came to the legal recourses for this girl's treatment. Threatening a member with legal action for not complying with an order from the church doesn't seem very Godly at all to me.

 

[Felicity]

Absolutely not. Read the link I posted. The archbishop went out of his way to explicitly state that while the mother was tossed from the church the father will NOT BE EXCOMMUNICATED because what he did- diddling his daughter - is not nearly as serious.

No--he did NOT say that. Look at where the quotes are. You are assuming there is no editorializing in there? Then why quote it as such. If he said "he will not be excommunicated" --why isn't that in quotes?

In other words the monster deserves church while a desperate mother trying to help her 9 year old daughter does not.

All mom has to do is go to confession--just like anyone in serious sin--just like the step-asshole has to.

 

[Felicity]

So, felicity, if I could point something out...what part of the Church doing it's job in spiritual guidance involves getting the diocese lawyers to threaten the woman with homocide charges if she doesn't comply?

The biological father of the girl was going through the diocese. The father doesn't deserve representation?

That seems like a very bad maneuver on the diocese's part and a refusal to submit to the law of the land when it came to the legal recourses for this girl's treatment. Threatening a member with legal action for not complying with an order from the church doesn't seem very Godly at all to me.

THE GIRL'S FATHER....:doh

 

[talloulou]

So the Church is responsible for something a lawyer says? Legal representatives are not the Church. The Church did not "put out the statement" they she was going to charge anyone with homicide.

The father ALREADY is outside the Church by his mortal sin. See above--I explained. Why aren't you as disgusted with the use 'em and leave 'em pro-aborts who a happy to plaster her tragedy everywhere, and use the media as a tool for their agenda?

When this all fades away--the Church will still be there for her.

Did you read the link I posted??? The statement that had me seeing red was put out by the archbishop.

The unnamed girl's mother and doctors were excommunicated for agreeing to Wednesday's emergency abortion yet the Church has not taken formal steps against the stepfather, who is in custody. Jose Cardoso Sobrinho, the conservative regional archbishop for Pernambuco where the girl was rushed to hospital, has said that the man would not be thrown out of the Church, because although he had allegedly committed "a heinous crime", the Church took the view that "the abortion, the elimination of an innocent life, was more serious".

 

[jallman]

The biological father of the girl was going through the diocese. The father doesn't deserve representation?

Not after he diddled his daughter, he doesn't. The diocese stepped in to defend a child rapist? Don't you find THAT odd and curious and more than a little political?

THE GIRL'S FATHER....:doh

Yeah, what about him? We already established he should have been a non issue in all this. Except when he can be used to leverage the Church's will over the legal rights of the mother, huh?

Disgusting.

 

[talloulou]

No--he did NOT say that. Look at where the quotes are. You are assuming there is no editorializing in there? Then why quote it as such. If he said "he will not be excommunicated" --why isn't that in quotes?

All mom has to do is go to confession--just like anyone in serious sin--just like the step-asshole has to.

Felicity are you saying that it's questionable and not a fact that the mother of this child was excommunicated by the church while the monster father clearly was not? 'Cause that's a huge part of the general outrage in regards to this situation.

 

[talloulou]

Here's what seems to be a similar direct quote from said Archbishop:

According to Globo, the stepfather is not being excommunicated. “He committed a serious crime, but . . . there are many other serious sins. Abortion is more serious,” said Archbishop Sobrinho.

9-Year-Old's Abortion Draws Catholic Censure in Brazil | Liveblog | Christianity Today

Indefensible

 

[UtahBill]

Felicity are you saying that it's questionable and not a fact that the mother of this child was excommunicated by the church while the monster father clearly was not? 'Cause that's a huge part of the general outrage in regards to this situation.

I believe that it is action, not words, that determine our level of christianity.
The step father NEEDS church, as demonstrated by his actions. Maybe the mom doesn't need church anymore. Her actions are more christian than the what the church is doing...

 

[talloulou]

I believe that it is action, not words, that determine our level of christianity.
The step father NEEDS church, as demonstrated by his actions. Maybe the mom doesn't need church anymore. Her actions are more christian than the what the church is doing...

That's laughable but I agree the mother is better off getting as far the hell away from the church as she humanely can. The daughter, too, will be better off. Men of the cloth are sometimes just men in robes. A representative of God would never play off a dad diddling and impregnating his daughter as a minor sin while banning the desperate mother of a pregnant little child for abortion. If God did view the mother in this instance as a worse being than the father than God isn't worth worshiping and should be seen as an antagonistic figure.