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Raped 9-Year-Old Has Abortion

Pinu7 said:
This is not a political or legal debate(I am not sure why it is on DP,anyway). It is a moral and perhaps a religious one.
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This topic can be argued from a moral, religious, or a legal perspective.

Pinu7 said:
Anyone that would value his or life over 100 other people's lives are evil. Putting your own interests above the interest of the community is also evil.
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So if a convicted child rapist found himself in a situation where he faced certain death because he was trying to rape another child and the only way you could save him was to sacrifice your own life, you would do it?

Its a ridiculously scenario but it clearly shows that its not a black and white picture as you suggest.

Pinu7 said:
I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I knew I killed someone for myself.
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Its not necessarily for yourself. One example could be more like apathy to the circumstances others have intentionally or intentionally placed themselves.
 
jallman said:
Whether the timing is curious or not, the fact still remains that it happened and it's simply not right.
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As I said--I agree. I do think the Doctrine of Double Effect DOES apply if the girl's life was in immediate danger--and since she was hospitalized for stomach pain and that's when they discovered she was 4 months pregnant with twins....

...but think about that for a moment. I'm 5ft 10in. When I'm 4 months pregnant with ONE baby, I have a sizable gut. This little girl must have been huge with two babies that were 15 weeks old...so either she wasn't so danged little and was carrying fine, or her life was likely in immediate danger. Either way, I have a hard time believing that the pregnancy "was discovered" at 15 weeks due to stomach pain as has been reported.

I do not put it past some abortion advocates to use people to further their agenda. Sorry...I don't doubt the whole business is a mess, but I do suspect she is a pawn and is being used as a means to incite outrage against the Church for political reasons.
 
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Felicity said:
As I said--I agree. I do think the Doctrine of Double Effect DOES apply if the girl's life was in immediate danger--and since she was hospitalized for stomach pain and that's when they discovered she was 4 months pregnant with twins....

...but think about that for a moment. I'm 5ft 10in. When I'm 4 months pregnant with ONE baby, I have a sizable gut. This little girl must have been huge with two babies that were 15 weeks old...so either she wasn't so danged little and was carrying fine, or her life was likely in immediate danger. Either way, I have a hard time believing that the pregnancy "was discovered" at 15 weeks due to stomach pain as has been reported.

I do not put it past some abortion advocates to use people to further their agenda. Sorry...I don't doubt the whole business is a mess, but I do suspect she is a pawn and is being used as a means to incite outrage against the Church for political reasons.
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It depends. Every pregnancy is different as I'm sure you know. I'm a little over 5ft7in and I didn't show until well into my 5th month. At 15 weeks, there was no way anyone could tell I was pregnant.

At any rate, I don't doubt that her case was used by the pro-choice crowd for precisely the reasons you state. The Church still holds a lot a political power in South America, and, I'm sorry, but that needs to change. Regardless of whether or not Catholicism is the country's official religion, it can't be allowed to poke its nose in state affairs. It's role is to cater to the spiritual needs of the people, not to dictate laws.

Isn't it time they temper their stance on abortion in the same manner they do with the death penalty? While valuing life above all else, they still admit that in some very rare cases the death penalty is justified. Why not do the same thing with abortion?
 
I only had a Catholic baptism and First Communion, but no confirmation, so I don't know if I could be excommunicated from the Catholic Church. Regardless, I will certainly try. :)
 
Arcana XV said:
It's not bashing. It's the truth. Rape is not grounds for excommunication.
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Sarcastically referring to the Catholic Church as "the country club" is bashing and nothing more.
 
Arcana XV said:
You're right. I'll be sure to say my Hail Marys in penance. I hope our dear Pope doesn't excommunicate me.
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Well, I see where this is headed. The same place it always goes with your type. Have at it then. :roll:
 
Arcana XV said:
It depends. Every pregnancy is different as I'm sure you know. I'm a little over 5ft7in and I didn't show until well into my 5th month. At 15 weeks, there was no way anyone could tell I was pregnant.
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My very tall 8-almost 9 year old is still under 5 feet--AND the Brazilian girl was carrying twins.

At any rate, I don't doubt that her case was used by the pro-choice crowd for precisely the reasons you state. The Church still holds a lot a political power in South America, and, I'm sorry, but that needs to change. Regardless of whether or not Catholicism is the country's official religion, it can't be allowed to poke its nose in state affairs. It's role is to cater to the spiritual needs of the people, not to dictate laws.
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The power the Church wields is over the moral formation of her followers. Are you suggesting that the Church should not teach her people what she believes is morally correct? I agree that direct influence is inappropriate, but just like in the Pelosi thread, if one does not want to conform his life to the teachings of the Church, one can renounce Catholicism and find a religion that suits him better.

Isn't it time they temper their stance on abortion in the same manner they do with the death penalty?
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No--and it will never happen. As it is, if a pregnancy is life-threatening, the Catholic Church DOES recognize self-defense as a just reason for ending a pregnancy. That's why I fear there MUST be more to this story, the Church has spent the last 2000 years figuring out all sorts of moral ambiguities and philosophizing the proper course. She doesn't act rashly. Again, I am surprised by the bishop even commenting on it, but since it is clearly a VERY political environment concerning the topic, perhaps he felt he needed to state the Church's stance on aiding an abortion.

While valuing life above all else, they still admit that in some very rare cases the death penalty is justified. Why not do the same thing with abortion?
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They do--but when the intention is to kill the baby, rather than protect the physical life of the mother from likely death, then abortion is NOT justified--ever. The babies are a second and third victim of the rape of their mother (how sad to use that word for a 9 year old girl:() except, those two where killed as a result of the crime. This is no good all around.

I will be seriously pissed if the facts show that she was older, or it was a set up, or some other such nonsense. People--especially children--should not be political pawns.
 
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"unless a danger to the mother"


9 year olds are not developed enough to carry safely.



I feel sorry for the girl, I hope the pedophilic scum is tortured before being shot in the sack and left to bleed to death.
 
Felicity said:
The power the Church wields is over the moral formation of her followers. Are you suggesting that the Church should not teach her people what she believes is morally correct? I agree that direct influence is inappropriate, but just like in the Pelosi thread, if one does not want to conform his life to the teachings of the Church, one can renounce Catholicism and find a religion that suits him better.
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Or the Church can adapt and evolve the way it's been forced to do in Europe and to some extent the US as well. Fundamentalism is on its way out. I have never heard of any European or US Catholic ever being excommunicated for aborting. The Church is still trying to impose its antiquated doctrine in places where it still holds some manner of political influence, but the more they resort to these extreme stances the more they'll lose followers. That can't possibly be what they want, so they'll have no choice but to adjust to the modern world or simply cease to exist.

No--and it will never happen. As it is, if a pregnancy is life-threatening, the Catholic Church DOES recognize self-defense as a just reason for ending a pregnancy. That's why I fear there MUST be more to this story, the Church has spent the last 2000 years figuring out all sorts of moral ambiguities and philosophizing the proper course. She doesn't act rashly. Again, I am surprised by the bishop even commenting on it, but since it is clearly a VERY political environment concerning the topic, perhaps he felt he needed to state the Church's stance on aiding an abortion.
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I'm not surprised. Like I said, the Church still holds a lot more say in places such as South America and Church leaders are much more outspoken there. What does surprise me is the support from the Vatican, if what you say is true and abortion is sometimes recognized as self-defense. (I didn't know that, btw). If the facts are truly what they are and the girl's tiny uterus could not possibly handle a normal pregnancy, let alone twins, then this was clearly a case of self-defense.

They do--but when the intention is to kill the baby, rather than protect the physical life of the mother from likely death, then abortion is NOT justified--ever. The babies are a second and third victim of the rape of their mother (how sad to use that word for a 9 year old girl:() except, those two where killed as a result of the crime. This is no good all around.

I will be seriously pissed if the facts show that she was older, or it was a set up, or some other such nonsense. People--especially children--should not be political pawns.
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Yeah, me too. I hate crap like this. I'm not sure it was a setup, tho. More like a very convenient turn of events. We'll have to wait and see if anything new comes to light.
 
Some churches act like country clubs, some like mutual admiration societies, some like power mad despots....
What would Jesus do?
Somehow I don't think this bishop has a clue what jesus would do...
 
Arcana XV said:
Or the Church can adapt and evolve the way it's been forced to do in Europe and to some extent the US as well.
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See...that's just not how it works. That's what got us Protestantism in all it's varied flavors. Christians know that Unity is the goal of religion--Christ called for unity among believers. However, unity is not accomplished by accepting majority rule and changing the beliefs to match as many people as possible--unity of belief is accomplished through being very clear as to what we believe and why--then if one doesn't want to unify with that, they may opt not to, but they cannot, then call themselves Catholic.

There's all sort of Biblical imagery about the process--separating the sheep from the goats in a flock, separating the wheat from the chaff, the good harvest from the weeds...etc... In some ways unity is achieved through this division.

Fundamentalism is on its way out. I have never heard of any European or US Catholic ever being excommunicated for aborting.
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It is self imposed excommunication by the very action. It always has been.

The Church is still trying to impose its antiquated doctrine in places where it still holds some manner of political influence, but the more they resort to these extreme stances the more they'll lose followers.
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So be it. The Truth is not for sale.

That can't possibly be what they want, so they'll have no choice but to adjust to the modern world or simply cease to exist.
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It's not about getting and keeping members. It's about saving souls with the Truth without ambiguity.



I'm not surprised. Like I said, the Church still holds a lot more say in places such as South America and Church leaders are much more outspoken there. What does surprise me is the support from the Vatican, if what you say is true and abortion is sometimes recognized as self-defense. (I didn't know that, btw). If the facts are truly what they are and the girl's tiny uterus could not possibly handle a normal pregnancy, let alone twins, then this was clearly a case of self-defense.
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The Vatican supports it's teaching on procurement of abortion. I'm waiting to see what "the facts" of this case evolve into.;)


Yeah, me too. I hate crap like this. I'm not sure it was a setup, tho. More like a very convenient turn of events. We'll have to wait and see if anything new comes to light.
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Agreed.
 
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Felicity said:
See...that's just not how it works. That's what got us Protestantism in all it's varied flavors. Christians know that Unity is the goal of religion--Christ called for unity among believers. However, unity is not accomplished by accepting majority rule and changing the beliefs to match as many people as possible--unity of belief is accomplished through being very clear as to what we believe and why--then if one doesn't want to unify with that, they may opt not to, but they cannot, then call themselves Catholic.

There's all sort of Biblical imagery about the process--separating the sheep from the goats in a flock, separating the wheat from the chaff, the good harvest from the weeds...etc... In some ways unity is achieved through this division.
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Well, I wouldn't be surprised if it divides again at some point. A Church that is out of touch with the world its followers exist in is doomed to fail.

It is self imposed excommunication by the very action. It always has been.
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Well, yes, but who really believes that anymore? I know that they should if they are to really follow the teachings of the Church, but the fact is that they don't take that stuff seriously anymore. Catholics have abortions, use birth control, have pre-marital sex and get divorced for reasons the Church disapproves of and they still call themselves Catholics. It happens every day. And the Church, while lamenting the current decline in society's morality, is not pushing any of them out, but doing everything it can to keep them in.

So be it. The Truth is not for sale.

It's not about getting and keeping members. It's about saving souls with the Truth without ambiguity.
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You know that the Church is concerned about the amount of followers it's been losing. It absolutely IS about getting and keeping members. Without them, it would cease to exist or become irrelevant. I really don't think that the Catholic Church wants to become a tiny cult of strict fundamentalists, do you?
 
Arcana XV said:
Well, I wouldn't be surprised if it divides again at some point. A Church that is out of touch with the world its followers exist in is doomed to fail.
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They've been saying that for 2 millennia.

Well, yes, but who really believes that anymore? I know that they should if they are to really follow the teachings of the Church, but the fact is that they don't take that stuff seriously anymore. Catholics have abortions, use birth control, have pre-marital sex and get divorced for reasons the Church disapproves of and they still call themselves Catholics. It happens every day. And the Church, while lamenting the current decline in society's morality, is not pushing any of them out, but doing everything it can to keep them in.
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It's a hospital for sinners. You don't boot the sick out on the street just because your hospital is full of sick people. You diagnose them--try to tell them how to find the cure, hope and pray that they listen to your advice, and keep your doors open for when they are ready to get well.



You know that the Church is concerned about the amount of followers it's been losing. It absolutely IS about getting and keeping members.
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Of course it's concerned about losing members, but not because they are concerned about their popularity--the Church is concerned about immortal souls being lost.

Without them, it would cease to exist or become irrelevant. I really don't think that the Catholic Church wants to become a tiny cult of strict fundamentalists, do you?
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Christians--specifically Catholic Christians-- have survived the persecution of the Romans, for Pete's sake :)2razz:pun!). Some bad press and pro-abortion propaganda will not destroy the Church... And, if it does become a tiny cult of fundamentalists--as long as they cleave to the Truth given by God in his Divine Revelation, there is nothing to fear. You can't kill someone who has eternal life.
 
Arcana XV said:
Or the Church can adapt and evolve the way it's been forced to do in Europe and to some extent the US as well. Fundamentalism is on its way out. I have never heard of any European or US Catholic ever being excommunicated for aborting.
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In your opinion, how has the Church evolved in Europe?
The reason you have not heard of excommunications for abortion is because it is automatic according to Church teaching. What must be kept in mind is that through penance there is reinstatement and forgiveness too.

The biggest problem in my eyes is how some of the representatives of the Church handle issues and events like this. For instance, what would have been your opinion if instead of the proclamation of excommunication the Bishop would have expressed his deep regrets over the terrible events, starting with condemnation of the rape of the child and the unfortunate path that was followed to abortion and expressing hope that through prayers and penance all involved will find their way back to the path to God?
 
prometeus said:
In your opinion, how has the Church evolved in Europe?
The reason you have not heard of excommunications for abortion is because it is automatic according to Church teaching. What must be kept in mind is that through penance there is reinstatement and forgiveness too.

The biggest problem in my eyes is how some of the representatives of the Church handle issues and events like this. For instance, what would have been your opinion if instead of the proclamation of excommunication the Bishop would have expressed his deep regrets over the terrible events, starting with condemnation of the rape of the child and the unfortunate path that was followed to abortion and expressing hope that through prayers and penance all involved will find their way back to the path to God?
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That would have been lovely--perfect. But alas...Bishops are people, too, affected by frustrations and all other human failings.
 
prometeus said:
And that is why we should not condemn the Church but the deeds of some people instead...
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I agree. Further, I think there is likely much regarding this situation that is NOT in the media either by the choice of those involved, or due to bias, so, perhaps it's a tad early for any "condemnation" from anywhere (including, perhaps, the bishop)...patience is a virtue!:mrgreen:


Except...I think it's safe to refer to that wretched step-dad as the scum of the earth he is!

Still--if he should sincerely repent....he would find forgiveness...
 
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