North Carolina Christian School (receives tax dollars) bars gay students and can kick you out if your sibling is gay.

[iamwhatiseem]

They don't pass in liberal states because most liberals rightfully see them as the scam they are. They also face clear resistance from rural Republicans as well.

“Our public school system is our town”: Why this rural Republican is voting against school vouchers

Despite intense political pressure, Republican Rep. Gary VanDeaver said he won’t support a bill that includes school vouchers. Rural Republicans like VanDeaver have long opposed school vouchers because of the unique role public schools they play in their communities.

www.texastribune.org

They are private and Christian schools trying to get a peace of the public money at the expense of public school funding. They are mainly rich parents trying to spend less money for their kids' schooling at the expense of parents less well off. They are Christian fundamentalists trying to harm public schools while benefiting mainly Christian private schools.

 

[Lovebug]

I can't wait to hear the wailing from the right when someone in a "voucher" district opens an Islam Academy or a School of Satanism and starts collecting that sweet, sweet .gov cash.

There would be an uproar but I don't think an Islamic school would accept homosexuals, Christians or Jews, so it is a gov money issue.
Idk, of course what this school does is wrong and not very Christian. Others may follow and, once it has a wider impact, it should be addressed accordingly.

 

[Buckeyes85]

Sigh... yes I know we are not a democracy...geez, but in ways we are. Like vouchers.
They pass due to voting. They don't pass in liberal states - because of voting.

You follow one simplistic claim with another. As if the voters of our various states all fall along a fault line: the state is liberal or conservative.

I can offer a more accurate, specific point: school vouchers are more likely to pass in states where the majority of citizens think it's a good idea for taxpayers to fund (at least in part) schools that incorporate their religion (christianity) into the curriculum.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

You follow one simplistic claim with another. As if the voters of our various states all fall along a fault line: the state is liberal or conservative.

I can offer a more accurate, specific point: school vouchers are more likely to pass in states where the majority of citizens think it's a good idea for taxpayers to fund (at least in part) schools that incorporate their religion (christianity) into the curriculum.

Not entirely.
Again, as someone else stated, vouchers are overwhelmingly supported by less fortunate and blacks.
Basically everyone living in areas where the schools suck, and they seek charter schools primarily.
Consider - 79% of black Americans support vouchers. Blacks make up the highest demographics of people who support the programs.

 

[Buckeyes85]

Not entirely.
Again, as someone else stated, vouchers are overwhelmingly supported by less fortunate and blacks.
Basically everyone living in areas where the schools suck, and they seek charter schools primarily.
Consider - 79% of black Americans support vouchers. Blacks make up the highest demographics of people who support the programs.

I would expect many of the less fortunate to support them. But even 79% of a minority group is insufficient to pass these measures. It is the white voters. Are you telling me the average white, predominately christian voters in Alabama are motivated to provide less fortunate minorities the opportunity to get a better education outside the hood? Color me skeptical.

 

[CaughtInThe]

Not entirely.
Again, as someone else stated, vouchers are overwhelmingly supported by less fortunate and blacks.
Basically everyone living in areas where the schools suck, and they seek charter schools primarily.
Consider - 79% of black Americans support vouchers. Blacks make up the highest demographics of people who support the programs.

Texas Republican politicians in rural areas are against School vouchers because they see how it's going to kill their rural public schools.

 

[cpwill]

Literal Texas Republican Politicians have come out AGAINST this scheme to funnel tax money to Christian/private schools because it kills their rural/poor public district schools.

And hurts FOOTBALL, the most important part of a child's education.

So. Why do you think poor minorities are more in favor of school choice, while affluent whites and teachers unions tend to form the opposition?

 

[roguenuke]

And hurts FOOTBALL, the most important part of a child's education.

So. Why do you think poor minorities are more in favor of school choice, while affluent whites and teachers unions tend to form the opposition?

Because they are being sold a bunch of garbage but when they live in poor neighborhoods, but see the availability of perhaps a little bit of hope, you will hitch to that. It doesn't make it right to do or even good for everyone. It hurts people in general, especially those who wouldn't be able to get into a private school.

 

[CaughtInThe]

And hurts FOOTBALL, the most important part of a child's education.

No, those Texas Republicans from poor rural districts see that the education money is going to go elsewhere and there are no private schools in their districts.

I know a ton of people probably missed that story.

 

[cpwill]

No, those Texas Republicans from poor rural districts see that the education money is going to go elsewhere and there are no private schools in their districts.

I know a ton of people probably missed that story.

Interesting. So the only opposition is a few Texas Republicans?

Well. Cool . Those guys, lose, then.

 

[cpwill]

Because they are being sold a bunch of garbage but when they live in poor neighborhoods, but see the availability of perhaps a little bit of hope, you will hitch to that. It doesn't make it right to do or even good for everyone. It hurts people in general, especially those who wouldn't be able to get into a private school.

Ah. The poor, stupid, minorities don't know that having their children stuck in failing schools is Good For Them. Good thing they have White Leftists to put them right, eh?


Hey, apropos of nothing, does anyone know why Democrats' lead with minorities is falling? It's the darnedest thing

 

[roguenuke]

And hurts FOOTBALL, the most important part of a child's education.

So. Why do you think poor minorities are more in favor of school choice, while affluent whites and teachers unions tend to form the opposition?

I've done the numbers on this. Haywood County NC. There are less than 500 spaces/spots/seats for students in all the private schools in that county combined, and that isn't open seats, but rather the total number of students, currently attending or that may attend any time this school year. That means most of those "spaces/spots/seats" are already filled by students already enrolled, who have never really been to public schools. There are over 68k students in public schools in Haywood County now. You can't fit anywhere close to the number of students in public schools into those private schools. There is almost no chance of more private schools opening in those areas, at least not to a level to accommodate even 1% of those students. And the vast majority of families cannot handle homeschooling, not effectively. It is a highly rural county. I doubt they care about their football teams.

I care about everyone, about working towards actual solutions, not harming the majority for the possible benefit of a small minority. Especially since the majority of those who "benefit" from vouchers are actually those same white affluent parents who already considered or sent their kids to private school or homeschool are become able to utilize those programs, vouchers.

How School Voucher Programs Hurt Students

Vouchers are largely tax subsidies for existing private school families, and a tax bailout for struggling private schools.

time.com

Let’s start with who benefits. First and foremost, the answer is: existing private school students. Small, pilot voucher programs with income limits have been around since the early 1990s, but over the last decade they have expanded to larger statewide initiatives with few if any income-eligibility requirements.

 

[justabubba]

michele morrow is a MAGAt who just upset the incumbent NC state superintendent of education. she will run against the anti-voucher democrat candidate in november's election:

...
Truitt lost to Michele Morrow, whose only previous political experience was an unsuccessful run for Wake County school board. Morrow, who home-schools her children and has never worked in education, took 52% of the Republican primary vote. She topped Truitt by almost 37,000 votes.

Apparently the voters who turned out for Donald Trump and Mark Robinson concluded that Morrow would better represent their values on education. After all, this is someone who went to Washington on Jan. 6, 2021, to rally for Trump and who has posted “Make Academics Great Again,” “End the Woke Nonsense” and “Take Back Our Schools” on social media.

~ Doss Helms

yep, GQP candidate morrow has no education experience and home-schools her childen ... yet wants to be the manager of NC public schools

 

[roguenuke]

Ah. The poor, stupid, minorities don't know that having their children stuck in failing schools is Good For Them, and they want better for their kids instead. Good thing they have White Leftists to put them right, eh?

It's not "good for them". And no one called anyone stupid. I was one of those poor families my entire childhood. There was no way I'd have been able to go to private school, but would lose funding for my school if this sort of thing went into effect 30+ years ago. My whole family would have suffered to benefit mainly families already sending their kids to private school and a few others who might make it out of failing schools.

The answer is to fix the failing schools. We need to work towards that, not to try to work towards an individualistic ideology, rather than benefit to society as a whole. I'm all for evening out funding of schools, making it so that there is much more school choice within the public school system, allowing for more flexibility and changing how we look at schooling. We need to adjust this view of "one size fits all" or "well if it helps some kids, that works", as these harm the majority.

 

[cpwill]

I've done the numbers on this. Haywood County NC. There are less than 500 spaces/spots/seats for students in all the private schools in that county combined, and that isn't open seats, but rather the total number of students, currently attending or that may attend any time this school year. That means most of those "spaces/spots/seats" are already filled by students already enrolled, who have never really been to public schools. There are over 68k students in public schools in Haywood County now. You can't fit anywhere close to the number of students in public schools into those private schools. There is almost no chance of more private schools opening in those areas, at least not to a level to accommodate even 1% of those students.

That depends on whether or not we are wise enough to continue our current path of freedom for students and parents, v trying to reforce them back into government institutions.

And the vast majority of families cannot handle homeschooling, not effectively.

<-- 11 year homeschool parent*, that is incorrect. The major restraint in North Carolina is that one of the parents has to have a college degree. However, I've seen highly effective home school parents without degrees, and bad ones with degrees, so, I'm not so sure how efficacious that restriction is proving.


*full disclosure: we do not use the North Carolina voucher program, and do not plan to in the near future.

It is a highly rural county. I doubt they care about their football teams.

..... are you from the South?

I care about everyone, about working towards actual solutions, not harming the majority for the possible benefit of a small minority.

If that's the case, then you should join us in breaking up the government monopoly, and empowering parents and students over a system that prioritizes top down control of them.

Especially since the majority of those who "benefit" from vouchers are actually those same white affluent parents who already considered or sent their kids to private school or homeschool are become able to utilize those programs, vouchers.

How School Voucher Programs Hurt Students

Vouchers are largely tax subsidies for existing private school families, and a tax bailout for struggling private schools.

time.com

Actually the kids who benefit most are those who are able to escape dangerous and failing government institutions.

 

[cpwill]

Jhas no education experience and home-schools her childen ...

that you put those together unironically is entertaining

 

[roguenuke]

That depends on whether or not we are wise enough to continue our current path of freedom for students and parents, v trying to reforce them back into government institutions.




<-- 11 year homeschool parent*, that is incorrect. The major restraint in North Carolina is that one of the parents has to have a college degree. However, I've seen highly effective home school parents without degrees, and bad ones with degrees, so, I'm not so sure how efficacious that restriction is proving.


*full disclosure: we do not use the North Carolina voucher program, and do not plan to in the near future.



..... are you from the South?




If that's the case, then you should join us in breaking up the government monopoly, and empowering parents and students over a system that prioritizes top down control of them.



Actually the kids who benefit most are those who are able to escape dangerous and failing government institutions.

I gave the numbers. You are ignoring reality.

It isn't incorrect at all. Most people cannot homeschool effectively. There's a reason most parents don't try and so many people complained during Covid about it. Just because you or some can do it, doesn't mean most can. And having an educated homeschool parent/teacher is definitely a good idea.

I have no issue with people homeschooling. I have issue with people taking from public school funding. I actually don't mind the NC online schooling options though. That's an alternative I'm behind as long as it still goes through the public schools, as ours does (one whole track of our MS is online, still considered enrolled in our school).

Yes, I was raised in NC.

I have no desire to break up something that works but just needs tweaking. I see the voucher program for what it is, trying to enrich religious schools and for profit private schools, like those the DeVos's own.

No, I provided evidence. Those who benefit the most are wealthy families and/or those already in private schools. Very few low income families benefit from these voucher programs, particularly as they are now, without any sort of income considerations.

 

[cpwill]

It's not "good for them". And no one called anyone stupid.

they just don't know what's good for them or their children, which is why they need affluent white progressives to keep those kids stuck in government schools.

I was one of those poor families my entire childhood. There was no way I'd have been able to go to private school, but would lose funding for my school if this sort of thing went into effect 30+ years ago. My whole family would have suffered to benefit mainly families already sending their kids to private school and a few others who might make it out of failing schools.

My sister in law is a racial minority (half black half white), and her daughter is three quarters black. She's a single working low income mom. Her local governments school is dangerous, but, while students her age generally can't read anywhere close to their grade level, they do get to learn interesting things about drugs.

Eventually, she pulled her out. She can't afford a private school, so, the girl is being home schooled now by grandma. She fought it at first, and is now doing better.

Please, tell my sister she should put her child back in danger, so the kid can learn less.

The answer is to fix the failing schools.

This is one of the major ways we do that, @roguenuke. Monopolies don't fix themselves, they require competition to force it.

We need to work towards that, not to try to work towards an individualistic ideology, rather than benefit to society as a whole. I'm all for evening out funding of schools, making it so that there is much more school choice within the public school system, allowing for more flexibility and changing how we look at schooling.

We need to adjust this view of "one size fits all" or "well if it helps some kids, that works", as these harm the majority.

.....do you really not see the irony in that you end with that after arguing that children shouldn't be enabled to escape a government one-size-fits-all institution if its better for them to do so?

 

[CaughtInThe]

Interesting. So the only opposition is a few Texas Republicans?

Well. Cool . Those guys, lose, then.

no, the students lose.

something that many Republicans don't seem to care about.

 

[cpwill]

I gave the numbers. You are ignoring reality.

You're numbers do not demonstrate what you are claiming for them, and I am not.

It isn't incorrect at all. Most people cannot homeschool effectively. There's a reason most parents don't try and so many people complained during Covid about it.

Yes - because it requires work. However, that is not at all beyond the capabilities of most adults.

Just because you or some can do it, doesn't mean most can. And having an educated homeschool parent/teacher is definitely a good idea.

I have no issue with people homeschooling. I have issue with people taking from public school funding.

Why? Is the purpose of the government spending to "educate children", or is it to "have a certain number of state employees"?

I actually don't mind the NC online schooling options though. That's an alternative I'm behind as long as it still goes through the public schools, as ours does (one whole track of our MS is online, still considered enrolled in our school).

Yes, I was raised in NC.

Yeah. Football is kind of a cultural thing. It is, in fact, something those Texas Republicans you cited in your first article brought up.

I have no desire to break up something that works but just needs tweaking. I see the voucher program for what it is, trying to enrich religious schools and for profit private schools, like those the DeVos's own.

You are mistaking your negative view for those who aren't like you for the purpose of policy.

No, I provided evidence. Those who benefit the most are wealthy families and/or those already in private schools. Very few low income families benefit from these voucher programs, particularly as they are now, without any sort of income considerations.

No, you cited a Time article claiming that a large number of students whose parents applied had already managed to escape the government school system. The students who benefit the most are those who are able to shift from bad schooling options to good ones.

 

[pocket aces]

Cut off all funding to the piece of shit bigots.

 

[Diving Mullah]

There are pros/cons for virtually anything you can think of.
And school vouchers are not immune to that.
Instead of focusing on only the negative, or only the positive, you need to weigh them both.
The largest pro of vouchers is that it enables parents to be able to afford to get their child out of a lousy underperforming school.
The largest con is that it decreases funds from those same failed schools making them even worse.
Other pros are it enables parents to send their children to schools that support their views and morals when they otherwise couldn't afford to do so.
Other cons is that public funds end up in schools that are not secular.

So it comes down to what is worse - parents forced to send their children to failed systems, or public funds going to non secular schools.
And the ONLY people that should be making the choice is parents with kids in school.

Consequently, a logical resolution would be that if schools opt to accept government funding, they must adhere to secular principles and refrain from discrimination based on race, gender, or sexual orientation.

In the scenario presented, if parents of a gay child are left with no choice but a substandard school, while parents of a straight child can select a better school funded by taxpayer money, it constitutes blatant discrimination.

Diving Mullah

 

[cpwill]

no, the students lose.

something that many Republicans don't seem to care about.

so, is the opposition just those few Texas Republicans, or not?

 

[CaughtInThe]

so, is the opposition just those few Texas Republicans, or not?

the ones fighting for the students in their districts.

the issue isn't the politicians it's the kids.

 

[roguenuke]

You're numbers do not demonstrate what you are claiming for them, and I am not.



Yes - because it requires work. However, that is not at all beyond the capabilities of most adults.



Why? Is the purpose of the government spending to "educate children", or is it to "have a certain number of state employees"?



Yeah. Football is kind of a cultural thing. It is, in fact, something those Texas Republicans you cited in your first article brought up.




You are mistaking your negative view for those who aren't like you for the purpose of policy.




No, you cited a Time article claiming that a large number of students whose parents applied had already managed to escape the government school system. The students who benefit the most are those who are able to shift from bad schooling options to good ones.

My numbers prove that most students cannot get out of public schools but taking funding from those schools, even for a few students, but especially for those who never went to public school to begin with, never counted, is going to harm those in public schools. That is a fact.

It is beyond the capabilities of most adults, as most adults do not have the resources or knowledge, skills to do it. This is a fact.

The purpose is to educate kids well, not to simply have them learn something, even if wrong. I can't help but think about all those parents who claimed they couldn't even help their kids with work during the pandemic, when kids were home then, doing work.

Football is not the most important thing to many schools simply because some say it is important (not even the most important) in some schools in Texas. They brought up as part of many things they'd have to cut.

The Times article pointed out the big picture, lots of kids harmed for the benefit of a few, but mainly for the benefit of rich families, for profit private schools, and religious schools.