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Noah, Bill Maher Calls Out the Stupid

Then how do you know that these miracles occur at all if you can provide no evidence that they actually do? Faith is not a virtue, if it's just something you claim takes place without being able to demonstrate that it actually takes place, then you're just inventing things out of whole cloth. I've yet to see a claimed miracle that has stood up as a miracle once evaluated by objective means. Just because you want it to be a miracle doesn't mean it is one.
How do you know miracles do not take place? What we have is the claim that miracles may take place. What I'm saying is that to rule claim this is impossible or possible depends upon one's metaphysical perspective. And, if the claim is it is possible, it depends again on one's metaphysical perspective to decide how likely it is possible miracles have actually occurred and to take a general stance, even before any detailed investigation, on a particular miracle being true.
 
How do you know miracles do not take place? What we have is the claim that miracles may take place. What I'm saying is that to rule claim this is impossible or possible depends upon one's metaphysical perspective. And, if the claim is it is possible, it depends again on one's metaphysical perspective to decide how likely it is possible miracles have actually occurred and to take a general stance, even before any detailed investigation, on a particular miracle being true.

I don't have to prove that they don't, the person who claims that they do holds complete and total responsibility for proving it is actually so. When do you think you'll get started?
 
I don't have to prove that they don't, the person who claims that they do holds complete and total responsibility for proving it is actually so. When do you think you'll get started?

This is entirely wrong. If I am claiming that a miracle has definitely occurred I must prove my assertion; but you also must prove the assertion that a particular miracle definitely hasn't occurred. The same is true for one claiming miracles are possible versus he claiming they are not possible; for one claiming they are likely versus one claiming they are not likely. And so on.

You are trying the usual Gnu abuse of the burden of proof. In truth the burden of proof is on anyone making an assertion, positive or negative, religious or irreligious.
 
This is entirely wrong. If I am claiming that a miracle has definitely occurred I must prove my assertion; but you also must prove the assertion that a particular miracle definitely hasn't occurred. The same is true for one claiming miracles are possible versus he claiming they are not possible; for one claiming they are likely versus one claiming they are not likely. And so on.

You are trying the usual Gnu abuse of the burden of proof. In truth the burden of proof is on anyone making an assertion, positive or negative, religious or irreligious.

I'm not saying they definitely have not occurred, I'm saying that if anyone wants me to believe that one has occurred, they have not met their burden of proof. If you don't care that anyone believes in miracles, fine. That places the claim with such vaunted company as UFOs, Bigfoot and honest politicians, all things that people claim are real yet have never demonstrated them.
 
Originally Posted by Tim the plumber View Post
Research is like that you go exploring and find stuff. You can't know what you are going to find. If somebody had talked about bacteria before the invention of the microscope they would have been bull-shitting. Once they had discovered the tiny creatures they began to be studied. It's all very easy. Start with facts and then work out how it all works not the other way around.[/QUOTE]

You're dodging the much more important logical point. Bacteria always existed even before we could prove their existence. You cannot say that something does not exist just because you have no proof of it. It is illogical. Positivism is bunk. I'm not asking you to accept something without proof, but you need to realize that lack of evidence is not evidence of non-existence.

Are you asking the world to accept that God exists? It's a simple yes/no question.

If not then fine. If yes then do you have any evidence beyond the Bible for the fantastic claims of the Bible?
 
It means that if you are trying to say that what is real is only what can be scientifically studied and tested then, not only do you need to argue for and support this, but it is self-defeating.

If it can't be shown, if it can't be seen, or it's effect seen, or felt or something then it is having no effect at all in the world then it does not exist. It's easy!

The proposition that only what is real is what can be scientifically tested cannot be scientifically tested.

Wrong. Name something which is part of the real world, not supernatural (not part of nature) which cannot be studied.
 
Well, it wasn't me who used the term real in that way. I disagree with that usage. My point is there are other kinds of knowledge besides the scientific and other fields of inquiry, such as rational or philosophical knowledge.

That God cannot be scientifically measured is irrelevant unless one professes the (self-refuting) philosophy of scientism.

Philosophy is the study of thinking. It's real.

The use of the concept of memes is a way of studying the idea of philosophy on a macro level and look at their evolution and competition for intellectual space. If you were less ignorant you would not say such stupid things.
 
I'm still waiting for the Biblical adaptation I really want to see.

A man. A whale. An adventure. Shia LaBeouf stars in ...

JONAH

there was a parody of Jonah. It was called DEEP THROAT!
 
Originally Posted by Tim the plumber View Post
Research is like that you go exploring and find stuff. You can't know what you are going to find. If somebody had talked about bacteria before the invention of the microscope they would have been bull-shitting. Once they had discovered the tiny creatures they began to be studied. It's all very easy. Start with facts and then work out how it all works not the other way around.[/QUOTE]



Are you asking the world to accept that God exists? It's a simple yes/no question.

If not then fine. If yes then do you have any evidence beyond the Bible for the fantastic claims of the Bible?

At this point I'm merely asking people that they do not totally reject something because there is no proof. That is illogical.
 
Religion says we're made of mud. Science says we're made of star-stuff.

Why are the whiners complaining about Noah getting drunk? It's one of the few parts of the movie that's true to the biblical tale.

Wow, they actually kept that part in? Does he curse Canaan and his descendents with lifetime slavery?
 
With all the knowing and laying with and other euphemisms for nookie going on, they left out what it was Ham really did to deserve the punishment he got for merely "looking" at daddy's "nakedness"....
 
If it can't be shown, if it can't be seen, or it's effect seen, or felt or something then it is having no effect at all in the world then it does not exist. It's easy!

Well, at least you can't point to any rational reason to think that it exists and therefore, anyone who believes in it is inherently irrational. Bacteria existed before they could be seen but people would have been fools to claim to believe in bacteria before we could demonstrate they were actually real.
 
At this point I'm merely asking people that they do not totally reject something because there is no proof. That is illogical.


But you are asking people to behave in ways governed by your specific beliefs. The atheist rejects the concept of an omnipotent creator simply because there is ZERO evidence of any nature showing that said omnipotent being exists/existed and that every so called justification provided by believers in the past has been found in error - so until some verifiable evidence appears ..... pfffft!

The agnostic is not quite so strict, differing only in saying, "I ain't seen nothing yet, therefore I can't decide."
 
Prove it. Oh yeah right... you can't prove a damn thing about anything. :roll:

Thor changes, thus He is not pure actuality.
 
But you are asking people to behave in ways governed by your specific beliefs. The atheist rejects the concept of an omnipotent creator simply because there is ZERO evidence of any nature showing that said omnipotent being exists/existed and that every so called justification provided by believers in the past has been found in error - so until some verifiable evidence appears ..... pfffft!

The agnostic is not quite so strict, differing only in saying, "I ain't seen nothing yet, therefore I can't decide."

And I've put forward an argument based on contingency that no one has even attempted to refute, yet they say it is wrong. Where is the logic in that?
 
Thor changes, thus He is not pure actuality.

Apparently you haven't read the Bible because the character of God changes quite a bit.
 
Apparently you haven't read the Bible because the character of God changes quite a bit.

That God is immutable was established at the 4th Lateran Council. This is what the Church believes and has always believed. To summarize:

Edward Feser said:
It is no good merely to point out that certain biblical passages seem to conflict with the conception of God affirmed by classical theism. For no one, not even theistic personalists, believes that all biblical descriptions of God are to be taken literally in the first place. For example, no one thinks that God literally has eyelids (Psalm 11), or nostrils (Ezekiel 18:18), or that he breathes (Job 4:9). These can’t be literal descriptions given that the organs and activities in question presuppose the having of a material body, which God cannot have since He is the creator of the material world. So, if the theistic personalist wants to insist on a literal reading of some passage that seems incompatible with classical theism, he needs to give us some account of why we should take that passage literally even though we shouldn’t take other ones literally. And he is going to have a hard time doing that. For notice that the reason why we don’t take the passages about eyelids, nostrils, etc. literally is that a literal reading would conflict with other things we know about God from the Bible, such as that He is the creator of the material world. But this same consistency criterion poses problems for some of the things the theistic personalist wants to affirm. For example, some theistic personalists hold that God is (contrary to what classical theism holds) capable of changing, on the basis of biblical passages which when taken literally would imply that God sometimes changes His mind. But other biblical passages (e.g. Malachi 3:6 and James 1:17) insist that God does not change. How do we reconcile them? The classical theist answers that we already know from following out the implications of God’s being the first cause of all things that He must be simple and thus unchanging, so that it is the passages that imply otherwise that must be given a metaphorical reading.

Edward Feser: God, man, and classical theism
 
That God is immutable was established at the 4th Lateran Council. This is what the Church believes and has always believed.

A statement of faith does not change what is actually contained within the Bible. Maybe you ought to try reading it without your absurd biases sometime.
 
Originally Posted by Tim the plumber View Post
Do you reject the god Thor?

If yes why?

Yes. Thor is not pure actuality.

I do not understand what you mean when you use the word actuality as you have. In fact I don't think you do. I in fact I don't think it means anything.

Can you define it without using God? I say this because if it's definition is Actuality is what God is then it's utterly meaningless.

 
A statement of faith does not change what is actually contained within the Bible. Maybe you ought to try reading it without your absurd biases sometime.

Any supposed instances of a "changing" God are illogical and thus must be read figuratively.
 
They had different ideas before then did they?

"This is what the Church believes and has always believed".

Do you suspend reading comprehension when dealing with theists?
 
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