Michael Vick: The problem of forgiveness and intrinsic value [W:251]

[Dr. Chuckles]

Where did you get that people can't differentiate?

that you obviously can't differentiate when you conflate the psychological and free will aspects of rape and forced animal breeding?

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

Pubic intocxication. Above? No, but mitigating.

public intoxication is a seperate charge. You made it sounds as if the jaywalking was exacerbated by his being drunk. It's like citing the fact that something was smoking underage when they were jaywalking

 

[CRUE CAB]

public intoxication is a seperate charge. You made it sounds as if the jaywalking was exacerbated by his being drunk. It's like citing the fact that something was smoking underage when they were jaywalking

He was drunk, he was jaywalking and stepped out in front of a car driven by a drunk person.
How harsh do you punish the drunk driver in that deal?
Billy Lane got 5 years.

 

[Sherman123]

You're EXACTLY right, why is it less moral to use a dog for dog fighting, than it is to test drugs on a rat? Other than the fact that some people can relate to loving a dog, i.e. it's sentimental.

I love how people totally ignore the entirepost, whether or not he's a millionaire has nothing to do with the ethical question.

Utilitarian and selfish hypocrisy with a healthy dose of cognitive dissonance. But it doesn't mean I don't support it's continuance. Why is it worse to have dogs fight than for you to test drugs on a rat? We like dogs more. That's pretty much it.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

He was drunk, he was jaywalking and stepped out in front of a car driven by a drunk person.
How harsh do you punish the drunk driver in that deal?

at the time of the accident he was trying to beat a red light and was over the legal limit. In what way do you feel Reyes' intoxication, which I can find no record of, contributed to the crash?

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

Utilitarian and selfish hypocrisy with a healthy dose of cognitive dissonance. But it doesn't mean I don't support it's continuance. Why is it worse to have dogs fight than for you to test drugs on a rat? We like dogs more. That's pretty much it.

Well, pit fighting rats would theoretically open one up to the same legal charges as vick, as well

 

[Tucker Case]

is "drunk jaywalking" even an additional charge above jaywalking?

I don't think so. :lol:

 

[specklebang]

They are companion animals TO YOU .... to Michael Vick they we're fighting animals ...

...just as Michael Vick is a criminal TO ME and a hero TO YOU. But I'm not the outlier here. Society in general and the law of the land support my POV.


FYI "were": not "we're"

 

[Tucker Case]

Not how things work and you know it.

It kind of is. The fact that the victim was drunken jaywalking does not negate the fact that Stallworth was committing a major crime that lead to another person's death. If the victim was sober would it make a difference? Of course not. Because the victim is not responsible for Stallworth's crime.

Your argument (that the actions of the victim can mitigate the severity of a crime), when taken to it's logical extreme, would imply that a person who rapes a girl is less culpable for their crime if the girl was also drinking underage.

Both were drunk, both lead to the mans death. Only think Stallworth could do is play ball and pay restitution, or would you rather he just sit in jail and the family not get a dime.

You think he was flat broke when the crime happened? I don't think that was the case.

 

[CRUE CAB]

"On the 911 call released Monday, Stallworth describes how the victim "just ran in front of my car" before he was struck. Police have said Reyes was not in a crosswalk when hit".


That is from the report, I remember it happening. The initial reports were that the man had been drinking.
Also note, that apparently his life was worth whatever Stallworth could pay. Because they were fine with the settlement and punishment.
As usual.

 

[CRUE CAB]

You think he was flat broke when the crime happened? I don't think that was the case.

Again, the family was fine with what they got and were going to get.
Also, after lawyer fees and contracts cancellations if sent to jail for 15 years. Yea, he would have been broke.

 

[reinoe]

What the **** does his skin color have to do with anything?

HIS actions, HIS price to pay.

He paid his price to society. Why is it not enough?

 

[Thorgasm]

that you obviously can't differentiate when you conflate the psychological and free will aspects of rape and forced animal breeding?

That is not the way to humanely breed animals.

 

[reinoe]

lol, people will try to make anything a race issue these days

Vick paid for his crime. Why is that not enough for you? He faced a harsher penalty than what bank C.E.O.'s paid and they ruined the livelihoods of thousands of people, which include people who commited suicide. So why is Vick's crime being treated so much worse?

 

[Woodman909]

The intrinsic value of something is said to be the value that that thing has “in itself,” or “for its own sake,” or “as such,” or “in its own right.” Extrinsic value is value that is not intrinsic. But I wonder, although dogs do have their value, do we value dogs value intrinsically, or based on some sentimental value? I mentioned Michael Vick in the title because it seems that some portions of society say Michael Vick's actions have labeled him cruel and inhumane thus deprives him of the quality of being called "human" because he caused pain to sentient beings. Although Michael Vick's actions were cruel, how do we view those who test animals under scientific conditions for the purpose of advanced cosmetics, research concerning diseases, or what about animals being in captivity? Surely the psyche of such a wild creature can be seen as breaking down their intrinsic value.

I personally feel in the situation with Vick, most people identified with the dogs sentience along with their own personal love for dogs, and while society perceives Vick's actions as cruel society seems to remain steadfast at not forgiving Vick's actions. To those same people that criticize Vick and refuse to forgive his past actions even though he paid his debt to society I ask, what are your views of the many creatures you wear on your feet or belt? Do we forgive the manufacturers that hunt animals down for the mere pleasure of aesthetics? Before you mention torture let me as you another question, what about C*ck fighting? Why is that so-called sport overshadowed by Vick's actions? What about the running of the bulls?

I believe dogs offer sentimental value to the person because the dog provides pleasure and unquestionable loyalty (if unabused) however I find it hypocritical for society to try to be ethically sound and condemn Vick, yet we find comfort in partaking in the luxuries of clothing, cosmetics and other aesthetic comforts.

Every time I see Vick play, I wish someone would clothesline him and put him down hard....make him see stars, then stand over him and say " my daughter asked me to say hello for her little puppy". Once every quarter would be a good.

 

[Tucker Case]

Again, the family was fine with what they got and were going to get.
Also, after lawyer fees and contracts cancellations if sent to jail for 15 years. Yea, he would have been broke.

Would have been =/= is. :shrug:

First priority should be restitution. Then everything else should be considered (lawyer fees last).

 

[Tucker Case]

"On the 911 call released Monday, Stallworth describes how the victim "just ran in front of my car" before he was struck. Police have said Reyes was not in a crosswalk when hit".


That is from the report, I remember it happening. The initial reports were that the man had been drinking.
Also note, that apparently his life was worth whatever Stallworth could pay. Because they were fine with the settlement and punishment.
As usual.

So? He was drunk driving. If he was not committing a crime when he killed the guy, that would matter. He was committing a crime when the accident occurred, though. That's what matters.

 

[CRUE CAB]

So? He was drunk driving. If he was not committing a crime when he killed the guy, that would matter. He was committing a crime when the accident occurred, though. That's what matters.

So lock him up, throw away the key and the family gets nothing for their loss. OK.

 

[CRUE CAB]

Would have been =/= is. :shrug:

First priority should be restitution. Then everything else should be considered (lawyer fees last).

Um, you have to be convicted first.
The next day I am sure the lawyers were elbow deep in his bank account. Or you think he should have just stroked a check for every penny he had that night on the side of the road?

 

[Tucker Case]

So lock him up, throw away the key and the family gets nothing for their loss. OK.

Who said that? Are you really so incapable of complex thought that for you the only options you can imagine are 23 days or forever? It must be horrifying to live like that.

 

[Tucker Case]

Um, you have to be convicted first.
The next day I am sure the lawyers were elbow deep in his bank account. Or you think he should have just stroked a check for every penny he had that night on the side of the road?

So the lawyer fees being added to the tally of him becoming broke if there was a longer sentence was a load of bull****, then. Gotcha. At least you are man enough to admit that you make things up in order to pretend to have a point.

 

[CRUE CAB]

So the lawyer fees being added to the tally of him becoming broke if there was a longer sentence was a load of bull****, then. Gotcha. At least you are man enough to admit that you make things up in order to pretend to have a point.

Well how else was he going to pay? He is a football player not a brain surgeon.
Its not like he could do 5 years and get out and pick up his practice. His ball playing days would be over.
That is the point and was the point hence the family agreeing to the settlement.

 

[CRUE CAB]

Who said that? Are you really so incapable of complex thought that for you the only options you can imagine are 23 days or forever? It must be horrifying to live like that.

He would have been out of the NFL if made much longer. Out of the NFL means not making any money.
It must be horrifying to life like you do and cant add 2 and 2.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

"On the 911 call released Monday, Stallworth describes how the victim "just ran in front of my car" before he was struck. Police have said Reyes was not in a crosswalk when hit".

So we are going to uncritically allow stallworth to define the circumstances that have a direct impact on him?

That is from the report, I remember it happening. The initial reports were that the man had been drinking.
Also note, that apparently his life was worth whatever Stallworth could pay. Because they were fine with the settlement and punishment.
As usual.

1) so he wasn't intoxicated? Well there goes 50% of your argument.

2) While restitution should be a concern here, there was still a crime committed that the public has a clear interest in discouraging, and such should not be swept under the rug because the perp happens to be rich

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

That is not the way to humanely breed animals.

You compared forced animal breeding to human rape. It's not my fault you have undermined anything else you could offer here