Is There A God?[W:262, 890]

[RabidAlpaca]

Re: Is There A God?

I will agree that burden of proof for something lies on the person making the positive claim. One can't prove something doesn't exist. Plenty of things have existed long before man could ever prove they did. Anything that is outside the realm of provable fact lies in the realm of belief. And that only insofar as human observation. Human observation doesn't always reflect reality (ex. heliocentric vs geocentric).

No more so than atheism trumps theism because there is more. Which was my point.

I have always been of the mind that God purposefully limits His proof of existence to a personal level. Why is beyond me but then again by definition God is beyond my full comprehension at this stage. My arguments will never be that God can be proven, at least not at this stage of human existence. I have always argued that simply because He can't be proven, doesn't mean that He doesn't exist. Nor do I hold that every detail in the Bible is free from human error.

I would like you to specifically reference a time ANYONE in this thread has claimed that atheism is right because there are more. There aren't even more. LowDown made the claim that because there are more believers god must exist. I pointed out that the number of believers of something does not effect the truth of it, and that those billions of believers all have radically different religions with completely contradictory accounts. They can not be pooled together to form a super-majority.

I fully accept that it's POSSIBLE for god to exist, and when someone, anyone, provides even the slightest shred of evidence to prove that, I will update my world view accordingly. Until then, I reject the claims of believers like I reject the claims of someone telling me that space unicorns exist.

 

[tosca1]

Re: Is There A God?

Those knee-jerk reactions are healthy critical thinking questions

Nah. That's why they're called knee-jerks!

We could easily tell too, what's knee-jerk replies. They obviously lack critical thinking.

 

[DDD]

Re: Is There A God?

Nah. That's why they're called knee-jerk!

I assume you get such "knee-jerks" pretty often?

 

[roughdraft274]

Re: Is There A God?

Not exactly. There's the explanation as to why! The WHY, is what's significant.

Noted. You're argument can be summed up thusly.

"everything is the way it is! Why is it this way? Therefor there is a god!"

Eh? Of course we expect to see humans to be in a place that supports their existence! Why would we expect them to be present where they cannot survive?

Exactly. And that is true whether a god exists or not. That's the point. You're pointing to things like the laws of physics and saying that they have to be the way they are for life to exist. First off, that's speculation. There very well could be another type of life that could form given different physics. We can't say it's impossible unless we can prove it and we can't do that.

Looking at the universe and seeing how well "designed it is" is similar to what a puddle would think if it could think. "Hmm, this hole in the ground is an absolute perfect fit, it must be designed for me!" Now you and I know that the puddle formed into that hole, without any design, and if that hole wasn't there then there wouldn't be that puddle. But none of this indicates any design, though you'd have a hard time explaining that to the puddle that's sitting in the "perfect" sized hole.

Well....you've got to explain first how life started. How it came to be here....

First, I don't "have to" explain this. As of right now no one knows exactly. But there are many theories that are piling up evidence. And religions are still sitting there with the same evidences they had a thousand years ago like "well look at how nice everything is!"

Secondly, we don't have to have a full explanation of how everything started to know that evolution has taken place and to find out all of the details about it.

I'm not talking about any ifs.....so I wouldn't entertain your hypothesis.

Of course not. You wouldn't want to consider any "ifs" that challenge your very sensitive and delicate faith...

 

[tosca1]

Re: Is There A God?

This seems to be going down to personal attacks. Predictably.


No more valid arguments or actual rebuttals with any substance? Are we done here now?

We are? Okay.



<sigh> And we didn't even get to EVIDENCE #2. :lol:

 

[tosca1]

Re: Is There A God?

Exactly. And that is true whether a god exists or not. That's the point. You're pointing to things like the laws of physics and saying that they have to be the way they are for life to exist. First off, that's speculation. There very well could be another type of life that could form given different physics.

There may be another type of life that could form given different physics. And the answer will be the same, if conditions given to earth is the same conditions given to them in such a way that made it possible for their life to survive and flourish.
Yours is clearly speculative, though. Because we've yet to find any lifeforms outside of earth.

We're not talking about the possibility of another type of life though, nor how they may survive and flourish with their own physical laws.
We're dealing with ours! Why earth is TEEMING with life!

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Is There A God?

This seems to be going down to personal attacks. Predictably.


No more valid arguments or actual rebuttals with any substance? Are we done here now?

We are? Okay.



<sigh> And we didn't even get to EVIDENCE #2. :lol:

I'd be content with evidence #1...if there were any.

 

[roughdraft274]

Re: Is There A God?

There may be another type of life that could form given different physics. And the answer will be the same, if conditions given to earth is the same conditions given to them - that made it possible for their life to survive and flourish. Yours is clearly speculative, though.

We're not talking about the possibility of another type of life. We're dealing with ours!

This isn't hard to understand.

You are saying that it's evidence that there is a god because everything is exactly the way it is and we are here. That can also be said like this "we are here because everything is the way it is". Neither of these are evidence of a god unless you can actually provide evidence that there wouldn't be life if things were different. Let me show you what I am talking about:

Then we have to consider the large-just right size of the universe - exactly the size it must be for life to exist at all.

Provide evidence of this. Show factual evidence that life can not exist at all if the universe were a slightly different size. You made a factual claim that requires evidence. Please provide it.

 

[tosca1]

Re: Is There A God?

I'd be content with evidence #1...if there were any.

Now, you're pulling my leg.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Is There A God?

Now, you're pulling my leg.

I have not seen ANY evidence that supports the assertion "there is a GOD."

Nothing at all.

If you have any...post it. We'd all like to consider it.

 

[tosca1]

Re: Is There A God?

This isn't hard to understand.

You are saying that it's evidence that there is a god because everything is exactly the way it is and we are here. That can also be said like this "we are here because everything is the way it is".

Well....yes. "The way it is..." is where the significance is. We are here because of the way it is: conditions that made for us to be here were in place!

Neither of these are evidence of a god unless you can actually provide evidence that there wouldn't be life if things were different.

You're asking for an evidence????

What other places outside of earth - in our immediate surrounding - are populated? Why aren't they populated? Why only earth?

Let me show you what I am talking about:

Originally Posted by tosca1 View Post
Then we have to consider the large-just right size of the universe - exactly the size it must be for life to exist at all.

Provide evidence of this. Show factual evidence that life can not exist at all if the universe were a slightly different size. You made a factual claim that requires evidence. Please provide it.

That's just one among the many conditions that made life possible on earth! That's the whole point!

Everything that was given in the OP - and that's not probably even all of it since I'm not a scientist - made up the condition that made it possible for life to exist! Take away one, and life won't be possible! That's what science says! I'm not the one saying this.....

That's why it's not logical to say everything happened by accident!
And if it's not accident.... the only logical answer would be that everything has been designed!

 

[roughdraft274]

Re: Is There A God?

That's just one among the many conditions that made life possible on earth! That's the whole point!

Everything that was given in the OP - and that's not probably even all of it since I'm not a scientist - made up the condition that made it possible for life to exist!

That's why it's not logical to say everything happened by accident!

Nope. You said:

Originally Posted by tosca1
Then we have to consider the large-just right size of the universe - exactly the size it must be for life to exist at all.

Provide proof of this claim. Show proof that if the universe were a slightly different size then life couldn't exist at all. Either prove this or admit that you don't know.

 

[tosca1]

Re: Is There A God?

Nope. You said:



Provide proof of this claim. Show proof that if the universe were a slightly different size then life couldn't exist at all. Either prove this or admit that you don't know.

I told you - the conditions - the fine-tuning, that science says made it possible for life are all enumerated in the OP.
If you don't buy that....then don't.

 

[roughdraft274]

Re: Is There A God?

I told you - the conditions - the fine-tuning, that science says made it possible for life are all enumerated in the OP.
If you don't buy that....then don't.

Show me the scientific studies that say that life couldn't exist - at all - if the universe was ANY other size. You made this claim Tosca. Provide evidence of it.

 

[tosca1]

Re: Is There A God?

Show me the scientific studies that say that life couldn't exist - at all - if the universe was ANY other size. You made this claim Tosca. Provide evidence of it.

I'm not a scientist, therefore I cannot give you the proof. I'm simply relying on science findings and studies. But I can pass on to you what was said about that by science. It has to do with the Big Bang.

There are physical constraints on the maximum and minimum mass of the universe. According to science, in order for nuclear fusion to have occurred during the first few minutes after the Big Bang, the universe could not have been much smaller than it is. That brief period is called nucleosynthesis.

Nucleosynthesis is the process that creates new atomic nuclei from pre-existing nucleons, primarily protons and neutrons. The first nuclei were formed about three minutes after the Big Bang, through the process called Big Bang nucleosynthesis. It was then that hydrogen and helium formed to become the content of the first stars, and this primeval process is responsible for the present hydrogen/helium ratio of the cosmos.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nucleosynthesis


Without nucleosynthesis, the early universe would have consisted entirely of hydrogen. If it's all entirely hydrogen, then there wouldn't be any helium. Without helium, heavy element production in stars is not possible, so that no rocky planets would have ever existed in the entire history of the universe.

Likewise, life would not have been possible had the universe not have been much more massive than it is. If the universe is just one part massive, the universe would've collapsed...even before life was possible. It has to do with "baryons."

There. Any more proofs you want....you'll have to do your own research.

 

[roughdraft274]

Re: Is There A God?

I'm not a scientist, therefore I cannot give you the proof. I'm simply relying on science findings and studies. But I can pass on to you what was said about that by science. It has to do with the Big Bang.

Can you quote me the part that backs up your statement? Nothing in there that I saw claimed that life couldn't possibly exist at all if the universe were a different size. You made the claim. Back it up or take it back.

There. Any more proofs you want....you'll have to do your own research.

YOU made the claim. If you can't back it up then don't make it. If you make a claim and then refuse to provide evidence for it then I can dismiss your claim out of hand.

Give me a study that backs up your exact claim.

 

[Ikari]

Re: Is There A God?

1. FINE-TUNING[/B]

The consistency of the physical law of the universe is evidence for having been planned/designed, and put in place.
Just the fact that we're situated in the suburbs of the Milky Way, where it's not crowded thus star collisions are rare, sort of reminds me of
the first rule for a successful business. LOCATION. LOCATION. LOCATION.


The nature of the universe is the best evidence for Design and how it came to be. One of the fundamental properties of the universe, dark energy (or the cosmological constant), was discovered late in the last century....and we still add to our knowledge as new studies continue.
The Big Bang - with its dramatic hyper inflationary expansion (cause of it is unknown), but it's required for life to be possible in the universe.
The masses of quarks that has to be fine-tuned in order to achieve a universe that contains any matter at all.
Then we have to consider the large-just right size of the universe - exactly the size it must be for life to exist at all.
We have just the right laws of physics,too. Of course.

Although it would be possible that one or two constants might require unusual fine-tuning by sheer accident or chance, it would be virtually impossible that
all of them would require such fine-tuning.
There are some physicists who have indicated that any of a number of different physical laws would be compatible with our present universe. However, it is not just this current state of the universe that must be compatible with the physical laws. Even more exacting are the initial conditions of the universe in its initial stage, since even minor deviations would have completely disrupted the process.
For example, adding a grain of sand to the weight of the current universe would have no effect. However, adding even this small amount of weight at the beginning of the universe would have resulted in its collapse early in its infancy.


Have you noticed? All those above that explained about the origin of the universe have numerous evidences that support one another.
Yep. We're talking CUMULATIVE EVIDENCE again here, folks. Just by the first evidence given - it has its own cumulative evidences.

Having cumulative evidences is evident on various differing individual evidence(s) that will be given to you.

There is a system in place here that deals with evidences for God, by the obvious looks of it.
Most, if not all, evidences that will be given to you have cumulative evidences supporting each and every one of them.

I see a PATTERN! Which is another evidence for DESIGN.

Fine tuning is not evidence of gods. Obviously if life is to evolve in an environment, it will do so to best exploit that environment. This universe is the one that happens to exist with the physical constants it has, and within in it, life evolved to fit it. We came from that line of evolution. With slightly different constants you might get different life.

But one this is for sure, if the universe supported a different form of life, and that evolved a species of great intellect, they'd be having the same conversation.

 

[tosca1]

Re: Is There A God?

Fine tuning is not evidence of gods. Obviously if life is to evolve in an environment, it will do so to best exploit that environment.

You're skipping the important part. Before there could be any life to evolve (that is assuming evolution is true)....a life has to start! The conditions they talk, enabled life to start.

 

[Quag]

Re: Is There A God?

You're skipping the important part. Before there could be any life to evolve (that is assuming evolution is true)....a life has to start! The conditions they talk, enabled life to start.

That doesnt imply any need for a God, as far as we can tell it is an exceedingly rare and random event.

 

[tosca1]

Re: Is There A God?

An amazing array of scientists are bewildered by the design of the universe and admit a possibility of a designer.

1) Professor Steven Weinberg, a Nobel laureate in high energy physics (a field of science that deals with the very early universe), writing in the journal “Scientific American”, reflects on

how surprising it is that the laws of nature and the initial conditions of the universe should allow for the existence of beings who could observe it. Life as we know it would be impossible if any one of several physical quantities had slightly different values.

Although Weinberg is a self-described agnostic, he cannot but be astounded by the extent of the fine-tuning. He goes on to describe how a beryllium isotope having the minuscule half life of 0.0000000000000001 seconds must find and absorb a helium nucleus in that split of time before decaying. This occurs only because of a totally unexpected, exquisitely precise, energy match between the two nuclei. If this did not occur there would be none of the heavier elements. No carbon, no nitrogen, no life. Our universe would be composed of hydrogen and helium. But this is not the end of Professor Weinberg’s wonder at our well-tuned universe. He continues:......

The "Fine-Tuning" of the Universe

 

[tosca1]

Re: Is There A God?

The Fine Tuning of the Universe

an article by Gerald Schroeder

According to growing numbers of scientists, the laws and constants of nature are so "finely-tuned," and so many "coincidences" have occurred to allow for the possibility of life, the universe must have come into existence through intentional planning and intelligence.

In fact, this "fine-tuning" is so pronounced, and the "coincidences" are so numerous, many scientists have come to espouse The Anthropic Principle, which contends that the universe was brought into existence intentionally for the sake of producing mankind. Even those who do not accept The Anthropic Principle admit to the "fine-tuning" and conclude that the universe is "too contrived" to be a chance event.

In a BBC science documentary, "The Anthropic Principle," some of the greatest scientific minds of our day describe the recent findings which compel this conclusion.

Dr. Dennis Scania, the distinguished head of Cambridge University Observatories:

If you change a little bit the laws of nature, or you change a little bit the constants of nature -- like the charge on the electron -- then the way the universe develops is so changed, it is very likely that intelligent life would not have been able to develop.

Dr. David D. Deutsch, Institute of Mathematics, Oxford University:

If we nudge one of these constants just a few percent in one direction, stars burn out within a million years of their formation, and there is no time for evolution. If we nudge it a few percent in the other direction, then no elements heavier than helium form. No carbon, no life. Not even any chemistry. No complexity at all.

Dr. Paul Davies, noted author and professor of theoretical physics at Adelaide University:

"The really amazing thing is not that life on Earth is balanced on a knife-edge, but that the entire universe is balanced on a knife-edge, and would be total chaos if any of the natural 'constants' were off even slightly. You see," Davies adds, "even if you dismiss man as a chance happening, the fact remains that the universe seems unreasonably suited to the existence of life -- almost contrived -- you might say a 'put-up job'."


Gerald Schroeder - Articles - Fine Tuning of the Universe





Gerald Lawrence Schroeder is an Orthodox Jewish physicist, author, lecturer and teacher at College of Jewish Studies Aish HaTorah's Discovery Seminar, Essentials and Fellowships programs and Executive Learning Center,[1] who focuses on what he perceives to be an inherent relationship between science and spirituality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Schroeder

 

[Manc Skipper]

Re: Is There A God?

That's argument by lack of imagination. Who said life has to be carbon-based?

 

[Ikari]

Re: Is There A God?

You're skipping the important part. Before there could be any life to evolve (that is assuming evolution is true)....a life has to start! The conditions they talk, enabled life to start.

For our life to start. And even then, it doesn't mean a god had to do it.

 

[tosca1]

Re: Is There A God?

For our life to start. And even then, it doesn't mean a god had to do it.

"It doesn't mean a god had to do it," isn't a valid argument........what more when we're using logic.

You'll have to scrap that, if logic points to the answer that God, is the most plausible answer.
Otherwise, there's no difference between you and those who belong in cult religions.

 

[tosca1]

Re: Is There A God?

2. CAUSALITY aka THE LAW OF CAUSE AND EFFECT



The Law of Cause and Effect is the most certain and universal of all scientific principles. Its universal acceptance in the world of experimental science,
as well as in ordinary experience, cannot be denied.
In ordinary experience, we know intuitively that nothing happens in isolation. We can trace every event to one or more events that preceded it,
and we know what caused it.

How did this happen? What caused it?
When we try to trace the event further to its cause.....we find that it seems to go on and on and on. We never seem to reach a stopping point.

Children are wonderful at using the law of cause and effect. Like the child asking, "mommy, where do apples come from?" And mommy answers, "from the apple tree." Then the child asks, " where do apple trees come from?" etc., You see the cycle. But really, the child (in his own way) must be wondering and wanting to know where the first apple tree got there. So clearly....the cause of the event had a prior cause.

A scientific experiment specifically tries to relate effects to causes. If possible, they do it in the form of quantitative equations.
If the scientist repeats the same experiment with exactly the same factors, then exactly the same results will be reproduced.



The rational person will admit that the universe exists, and is real. We wouldn't be talking right now, or posting replies to forums if it doesn't exists.
So the question arises: how did the universe get here?

One thing is definite: The universe did not create itself. We know this for a scientific fact, because matter cannot create matter.

Another thing is also definite: The universe did not come from nothing. Because, nothing produces nothing.