Is There A God?[W:262, 890]

[Jetboogieman]

Re: Is There A God?

100%, eh? And you support that number how?

There is nothing, absolutely nothing in our current world that shows the existence of anything supernatural of any kind that we are aware of.

The existence of an entity such as "god" as described in the bible has as little validity as the gods of old worshipped in Greece, Egypt, Rome and Scandinavia...

Lets see one way in which god might be man made...

Egypt and the freeing of the Hebrews.

So this "all loving, all powerful god" could have freed the slaves himself... but let me get this straight.

Instead of just yah know, doing that, he inflicts Egypt (of which the vast majority of Egyptians probably would have been innocent of involvement with how slaves were treated or the historical decisions that lead to their enslavement) with horrific famine, disease, pests and eventually... kills all their first born children... sounds pretty human to me.

Speaking of which are we sure gods against abortion in that case?

 

[maquiscat]

Re: Is There A God?

And any one of those people will offer a completely different and contradictory testimony to any of the other testimonies. I think it's funny how quick you christians are to pool all believers of all religions onto your side as if your numbers make it true. You still can't get past the fact that while there are roughly 2 billion christians, there are still 5 billion people who think you're full of ****.

Now how many more Jews (religious, not racial) are there? Muslims? Wiccians? Druids? Let's not forget those who follow Thor, and Zeus, and so many other gods. Somehow, I really don't think atheists outnumber theists.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

Re: Is There A God?

In the end that is what it is, a belief. If there is no evidence for the existence or non-existence of something then one can only have a belief in said thing's existence or non-existence. Lack of knowledge of something does not constitute a belief in something's existence. Until I first heard of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, I could not believe that it does not exist.

Atheism does not require a positive statement of disbelief. Lacking a belief in something is not a belief. You don't believe in the flying spaghetti monster (I assume) and that doesn't really require any faith on your part because the burden of proof lies on the person making the claim and as of now there is exactly zero evidence of any kind for an FSM or any god for that matter.

Now how many more Jews (religious, not racial) are there? Muslims? Wiccians? Druids? Let's not forget those who follow Thor, and Zeus, and so many other gods. Somehow, I really don't think atheists outnumber theists.

So you think we live in a world where number of believers constitutes evidence? Theism trumps atheism because there's more. Christianity trumps all other religions because there's more. Catholicism trumps all other denominations because there's more. I mean, really?

What I'm saying is that you can't pool together all of the testimonies given by theists as proof for god when the testimonies all contradict each other. (Nevermind the fact that anecdotal testimonies about how 'god' helped you through a hard time isn't evidence of god)

 

[roughdraft274]

Re: Is There A God?

There is nothing, absolutely nothing in our current world that shows the existence of anything supernatural of any kind that we are aware of.

The existence of an entity such as "god" as described in the bible has as little validity as the gods of old worshipped in Greece, Egypt, Rome and Scandinavia...

Lets see one way in which god might be man made...

Egypt and the freeing of the Hebrews.

So this "all loving, all powerful god" could have freed the slaves himself... but let me get this straight.

Instead of just yah know, doing that, he inflicts Egypt (of which the vast majority of Egyptians probably would have been innocent of involvement with how slaves were treated or the historical decisions that lead to their enslavement) with horrific famine, disease, pests and eventually... kills all their first born children... sounds pretty human to me.

Speaking of which are we sure gods against abortion in that case?

Hence why we get awful apologetics like "god works in mysterious ways!"

 

[zyzygy]

Re: Is There A God?

Can not collecting stamps be called a hobby?

 

[LowDown]

Re: Is There A God?

And any one of those people will offer a completely different and contradictory testimony to any of the other testimonies.

In fact, testimony is surprisingly uniform, and there is a lot of overlap between different major faiths.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Is There A God?

There are people who "believe" there is a GOD or gods.

I am not one of them.

Therefore, I lack a belief that there are any gods.

I do not use the descriptor "atheist" nor am I an atheist simply by virtue of not having a belief in a god.

I am an agnostic.

(There also are people who "believe" there are no gods. I am not one of them either.)

I have often said that it is my opinion that people who use the descriptor "atheist" do so for reasons more involved than simply not having a belief in a god. (That statement, which I have made many, many times was distorted by Rabid, in order to make a point he could not make if he had used what I actually said.)

And for certain, it is my opinion that people who use the descriptor "atheist" do so for more compelling reasons than simply not having a belief in a god.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

Re: Is There A God?

In fact, testimony is surprisingly uniform, and there is a lot of overlap between different major faiths.

Suprisingly uniform...

Person A: I was going through a hard time, but I read some religious motivational literature and spent time in isolation thinking about my problem. Eventually a solution presented itself and now everything is great. PRAISE GOD FOR HELPING ME DIRECTLY! THIS IS ALL THE EVIDENCE I NEED.

Person B: OMG! The EXACT thing happened to me! GOD IS GREAT!

God ignored the screaming prayers of 6 million Jews as they were systematically and slowly murdered, yet he actively changes the laws of physics to help you in your piddly day-to-day problems.

There are people who "believe" there is a GOD or gods.

I am not one of them.

Therefore, I lack a belief that there are any gods.

I do not use the descriptor "atheist" nor am I an atheist simply by virtue of not having a belief in a god.

I am an agnostic.

(There also are people who "believe" there are no gods. I am not one of them either.)

I have often said that it is my opinion that people who use the descriptor "atheist" do so for reasons more involved than simply not having a belief in a god. (That statement, which I have made many, many times was distorted by Rabid, in order to make a point he could not make if he had used what I actually said.)

And for certain, it is my opinion that people who use the descriptor "atheist" do so for more compelling reasons than simply not having a belief in a god.

Yes, that's exactly what I said. You think atheism is a political statement and even though you believe the exact same thing as atheists (nothing) you dislike the title so you reject it. I'm sorry you dislike the term, but trying to tell all atheists world-wide that not believing something is a belief system is silly and rather dishonest.

 

[Quag]

Re: Is There A God?

There are people who "believe" there is a GOD or gods.

I am not one of them.

Therefore, I lack a belief that there are any gods.

I do not use the descriptor "atheist" nor am I an atheist simply by virtue of not having a belief in a god.

I am an agnostic.

(There also are people who "believe" there are no gods. I am not one of them either.)

I have often said that it is my opinion that people who use the descriptor "atheist" do so for reasons more involved than simply not having a belief in a god. (That statement, which I have made many, many times was distorted by Rabid, in order to make a point he could not make if he had used what I actually said.)

And for certain, it is my opinion that people who use the descriptor "atheist" do so for more compelling reasons than simply not having a belief in a god.

In my experience the vast majority of people who call themselves atheist are actually agnostics that lean (sometimes heavily) towards atheism.

 

[LowDown]

Re: Is There A God?

But personal experiences are anecdotal evidence and are not enough to support that an existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent entity truly exists.

With faith one knows God exists. Faith is a gift of God. Not everyone gets or accepts the gift.

 

[tosca1]

Re: Is There A God?

You are supposing "design" implies a designer...but design may simply be an accident of nature.

Oh c'mon Frank. You don't really mean that.

Although it would be possible that one or two constants might require unusual fine-tuning by sheer accident or chance, it would be virtually impossible that all of them would require such fine-tuning.

You are saying (very arbitrarily) design = God. But the truth MAY BE design = nature. We really do not know...and for you to insist it must be one way over the other is gratuitous.

I do have evidences to support my belief that the Designer is God......none other than the God of the Abrahamic religions.

So...other than design being arbitrarily and illogically indicative of a god..

So that means, at least.....you're accepting that there is indeed design! You just don't agree that the Designer is a god.

what is your most compelling single piece of evidence that there is a god?

Weren't you the one who said "god" can be anything? That there are many definitions to a "god?" So.....why can't this designer be a god?

It could be anything......but a god?

You are showing me why you want very much to think there is a god...and you may be right.

But, respectfully as possible, Tosca, you most assuredly are not "showing me through evidence"...that there is a god.[

Pardon me, Frank....but you are showing me you want very much to say that it's not a god who's done all the designing.....despite the cumulative evidences. How can you pretend that those cumulative evidences doesn't amount to anything?


Going against logic - you are doing exactly what atheists are doing.
Even to that part that says, the designer could be anything........except a god.

 

[LowDown]

Re: Is There A God?

Suprisingly uniform...

Person A: I was going through a hard time, but I read some religious motivational literature and spent time in isolation thinking about my problem. Eventually a solution presented itself and now everything is great. PRAISE GOD FOR HELPING ME DIRECTLY! THIS IS ALL THE EVIDENCE I NEED.

Person B: OMG! The EXACT thing happened to me! GOD IS GREAT!

God ignored the screaming prayers of 6 million Jews as they were systematically and slowly murdered, yet he actively changes the laws of physics to help you in your piddly day-to-day problems.



Yes, that's exactly what I said. You think atheism is a political statement and even though you believe the exact same thing as atheists (nothing) you dislike the title so you reject it. I'm sorry you dislike the term, but trying to tell all atheists world-wide that not believing something is a belief system is silly and rather dishonest.

You need to learn something about religions beyond the caricatures you describe before you reject them.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Is There A God?

Yes, that's exactly what I said. You think atheism is a political statement and even though you believe the exact same thing as atheists (nothing) you dislike the title so you reject it. I'm sorry you dislike the term, but trying to tell all atheists world-wide that not believing something is a belief system is silly and rather dishonest.

That is not exactly what you said...

...and your characterization of what I said...and what you quoted...is an absurdity.

At no point did I say it is a political statement...and no point did I say I "believe" anything...at no point did I say I dislike the "title."

Get real.

I said: There are people who "believe" there is a GOD or gods.

Do you agree or disagree with that?

I said I am not one of them.

Do you disagree with that?

I said I do not use the descriptor "atheist" nor am I an atheist simply by virtue of not having a belief in a god.

Do you disagree with that?

I said I am an agnostic.

Do you disagree with that?

I said "There also are people who 'believe' there are no gods. I am not one of them either."

Do you disagree with that?

Huh?

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Is There A God?

Oh c'mon Frank. You don't really mean that.

Although it would be possible that one or two constants might require unusual fine-tuning by sheer accident or chance, it would be virtually impossible that
all of them would require such fine-tuning.





I do have evidences to support my belief that the Designer is God......none other than the God of the Abrahamic religions.





So that means, at least.....you're accepting that there is indeed design. You just don't agree that the Designer is a god.





Weren't you the one who said "god" can be anything? That there are many definitions to a "god?" So.....why can't this designer be a god?






Pardon me, Frank....but you are showing me you want very much to say that it's not a god who's done all the designing.....despite the cumulative evidences. To go against logic - you are doing exactly what atheists are doing.

How can you pretend that those cumulative evidences doesn't amount to anything?

Tosca...if you have any evidence at all that supports "there is a god"...please present it.

So far...you haven't.

And if it is a list that ultimately come to "CUMULATIVE EVIDENCE"...we can discuss the components one by one first. So come up with one...even if it is not what you consider to be the most compelling.

Come up with one!

 

[RabidAlpaca]

Re: Is There A God?

You need to learn something about religions beyond the caricatures you describe before you reject them.

You need to provide better arguments than proclaiming that because there are a lot of theists in the world there must be a god.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Is There A God?

Tosca...I will say this:

This thread already is a lot more interesting...

...and fun...

...than I thought it would be when I read it originally.

Thanks for posting it.

If I could figure out how to create a new thread (something I used to know, but cannot figure out now) I probably would have posted something like it myself.

 

[tosca1]

Re: Is There A God?

You're essential argument can be summed up as "everything is the way it is, therefor there is a god!"

Not exactly. There's the explanation as to why! The WHY, is what's significant.

You can't say "look, we are in the milky way, and that's the perfect spot for us!" because there are other reasons for that, or at the very least there are other more believe explanations. Whether there is a god or not, wherever you find humans, you'd expect to see them in a place where they could survive and thrive. Period.

Eh? Of course we expect to see humans to be in a place that supports their existence! Why would we expect them to be present where they cannot survive?

If you think this is the perfect spot for a god to place us, then it could also be argued it's a good spot for us to have evolved etc.

Well....you've got to explain first how life started. How it came to be here....

Also, to chalk this up to design seems silly. If you were to let me "intelligently design" the world and the human body I could improve it dramatically. Think about it, we are on a planet where the large majority of the water isn't even drinkable. Some design.

I'm not talking about any ifs.....so I wouldn't entertain your hypothesis.

 

[tosca1]

Re: Is There A God?

As others have said, this is not evidence at all. Cumulative or fact or stats or any other measure of a persuasive argument. There is not a single example above that even points to deity in any sense, and no direct association of what you call design to what you call God.

And yours is not an argument at all! It's a typical knee-jerk reaction. Sorry, I don't do knee-jerks....so I expect the same from my "opponents."

And......I don't accept personal opinion without any credible support.

 

[DDD]

Re: Is There A God?

With faith one knows God exists.

With blind faith one can know that anything exists.

Faith is a gift of God.

Not everyone gets or accepts the gift.

Circular logic,

With faith one knows that there is "god" so as then "god" gives faith to one in order to know.

Also a leap of faith is attempted because there is no actual empirical evidence that this "god" concept really exists, and whether it is capable of "giving," and that among things that might give it happened to be faith. Lets not speak of how exactly does this "god" concept "gives" faith to one? Telepathy? Or one should also have faith that "god" can give faith?

Once one blindly has faith then rather than reality test they can use faith for every gap in one's logic.

Have faith that this "god" exists and do not bother looking for one.

Have faith that this "god" gives and do not bother looking if it really can.

Have faith that "god" gives faith and not bother looking for alternative explanations.

Have faith that "god" can like and do not bother looking whether that is so.

Have faith that "god" likes some over others and do not bother looking the damage that may come with that (referencing Crusaders and ISIS).

Just have faith and let the religious zombify your brain and use you for their political gains.

 

[tosca1]

Re: Is There A God?

At no point in this thread did you provide anything even remotely scientific. Saying "Everything seems so complex to me, so it must be god!" is not evidence. No one here considers anything you've posted as evidence, because it's not. Give us evidence that god, and even more specifically YOUR god is real and the only one.

If you think there weren't scientific facts given in the OP....you must be out of the loop, science-wise. Sorry.....can't help you there.

 

[OrphanSlug]

Re: Is There A God?

And yours is not an argument at all! It's a typical knee-jerk reaction. Sorry, I don't do knee-jerks....so I expect the same from my "opponents."

And......I don't accept personal opinion without any credible support.

You have not offered us anything as credible in the first place, that is the point.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

Re: Is There A God?

If you think there weren't scientific facts given in the OP....you must be out of the loop, science-wise. Sorry.....can't help you there.

Coming from the person that thinks evolution and global warming are hoaxes... You are scientifically illiterate. If and when you want to have an actual scientific conversation about scientific data, evidence and facts, let me know. As long as you keep labeling your unsubstantiated opinions as scientific evidence there isn't anything for me to rebut.

 

[maquiscat]

Re: Is There A God?

Atheism does not require a positive statement of disbelief. Lacking a belief in something is not a belief. You don't believe in the flying spaghetti monster (I assume) and that doesn't really require any faith on your part because the burden of proof lies on the person making the claim and as of now there is exactly zero evidence of any kind for an FSM or any god for that matter.

I will agree that burden of proof for something lies on the person making the positive claim. One can't prove something doesn't exist. Plenty of things have existed long before man could ever prove they did. Anything that is outside the realm of provable fact lies in the realm of belief. And that only insofar as human observation. Human observation doesn't always reflect reality (ex. heliocentric vs geocentric).

So you think we live in a world where number of believers constitutes evidence? Theism trumps atheism because there's more. Christianity trumps all other religions because there's more. Catholicism trumps all other denominations because there's more. I mean, really?

No more so than atheism trumps theism because there is more. Which was my point.

What I'm saying is that you can't pool together all of the testimonies given by theists as proof for god when the testimonies all contradict each other. (Nevermind the fact that anecdotal testimonies about how 'god' helped you through a hard time isn't evidence of god)

I have always been of the mind that God purposefully limits His proof of existence to a personal level. Why is beyond me but then again by definition God is beyond my full comprehension at this stage. My arguments will never be that God can be proven, at least not at this stage of human existence. I have always argued that simply because He can't be proven, doesn't mean that He doesn't exist. Nor do I hold that every detail in the Bible is free from human error.

 

[DDD]

Re: Is There A God?

And yours is not an argument at all! It's a typical knee-jerk reaction.

Those knee-jerk reactions are healthy critical thinking questions aimed at the cumulative nonsense (e.g., good location = there is god) presented as "cumulative evidence." The argument is that there is still an evidence to be provided that this "god" concept really exists.

Sorry, I don't do knee-jerks....so I expect the same from my "opponents."

This seems like a knee-jerk response.

And......I don't accept personal opinion without any credible support.

Why post 1 and present it as "cumulative evidence" then?

 

[tosca1]

Re: Is There A God?

Attempting to prove the existence of God using secular standards of evidence and proof is a fool's errand.

I don't know if it's a fool's errand, Lowdown.

I know that there were several atheist scientists who ended up believing in God, some converting to Christianity - because they got convinced by their own findings. Most of them are now Christian apologists - aggressively promoting and defending Christianity.

Most or all posters (and viewers for that matter) on this forum may not get convinced now.....but hopefully, some will open their minds and do their own research about the God of Abraham. We don't know whom we'll touch. Or, in what way.

The best evidence for God's existence is the personal experience that billions of people share of a living God that touches their lives every day.

Yes, I agree with you on that. 100%.

However, I never said that I was giving the best evidence for God's existence.