How do you perceive capitalism?

[sookster]

Hitler was democratically elected.

What are you implying?

 

[Dittohead not!]

I don't really care about how you interpret Sanders' speeches. Point is, calling for "democratic ownership of the means of production" is exactly the kind of thing leftists say. Capitalism has nothing to do with democracy.

That's what socialists say. It's not a "leftist" position unless you define "leftist" as "socialist." Now, who is calling for "democratic ownership of the means of production"?

 

[Geoist]

On the contrary, capitalism is the most Democratic of the systems. It is the one that puts the decision making power in the hands of the people, instead of the few deciders of more managed economies.

You mean it puts the decision-making power in the hands of the capitalists. Workers typically have little power within a company. Corporations are mainly run from the top-down. It's extremely hierarchical and, therefore, undemocratic.

 

[Geoist]

not accurate.

Ah, okay, I'll let dictionary.com know right away how inaccurate their definition is. :lol:

Remember "Capitalism and Freedom", Milton Friedman's most famous book? If people want to be free to buy and sell what they want and to work where they want they will probably want to be free to pick their politicians and to insist that they not limit freedom in any way.. So, capitalism is where trade and govt are controlled privately by the choices all 320 million of us make.

Government is controlled privately?! Dude, please just stop.

Capitalism just eliminated 40% of the planets poverty when China switched to it so it is perceived as a wonderful miracle by intelligent people.

That is like saying "I can beat up a five year old, therefore I am the strongest man on Earth!" Mao was an inept fool who knew nothing about economics.

 

[Geoist]

And democracy has nothing to do with democratic ownership as democracy is the antithesis of equality, freedom or basic fundamental rights. Democracy is two wolves voting to eat the sheep. Constitutional Republic on the other hand can provide equality, freedom and basic fundamental rights and that's what the left hates.

Constitutional Republic is a form of democracy, my friend. I've been there as a right-libertarian. I know all the predictable arguments.

 

[Geoist]

And democracy has nothing to do with democratic ownership

Wait, I just reread this and can't believe I missed it the first time. The irony of this statement is worthy of a :lamo

 

[Geoist]

That's what socialists say. It's not a "leftist" position unless you define "leftist" as "socialist." Now, who is calling for "democratic ownership of the means of production"?

Leftists in general call for a more "democratic ownership of the means of production." That includes moderate liberals, to an extent as nearly every modern liberal demands more worker/union rights.

 

[Geoist]

Capitalism just eliminated 40% of the planets poverty when China switched to it so it is perceived as a wonderful miracle by intelligent people.

I initially misread this statement thinking you said 40% of China's poverty, not the world. Care to back that statement up with a source?

 

[James972]

I initially misread this statement thinking you said 40% of China's poverty, not the world. Care to back that statement up with a source?

under libsocialism 60 million slowly were starved to death in China. 35 years later under Republican capitalism they buy almost double the number of fully electric cars that we buy in the USA!!

 

[James972]

Leftists in general call for a more "democratic ownership of the means of production."

its as democratic as possible now. Everyone is free to buy what ever means of production they can afford.

 

[James972]

democracy is the antithesis of equality,

why do you say that?? in democracy everyone is equally free to vote for whom they choose and equally free to buy whatever they can afford!!

 

[Geoist]

under libsocialism 60 million slowly were starved to death in China. 35 years later under Republican capitalism they buy almost double the number of fully electric cars that we buy in the USA!!

Dude, they have quadruple our population.

Once again, please provide sources/links when you make such specific claims.

 

[Geoist]

why do you say that??

Because he is an Austrian. Austrians hate democracy and prefer the neo-feudalism proposed by Hoppe.

 

[Geoist]

its as democratic as possible now. Everyone is free to buy what ever means of production they can afford.

What does having the freedom to buy things have to do with democracy?

 

[James972]

Dude, they have quadruple our population.
.

yes and under libsocialism they bought no cars, now they buy more than we do, Its the greatest economic miracle in human history'

 

[James972]

What does having the freedom to buy things have to do with democracy?

democracy means people are free to rule themselves. People naturally want to be free to buy what they want and sell what they want.

 

[Geoist]

democracy means people are free to rule themselves. People naturally want to be free to buy what they want and sell what they want.

Democracy simply means a government or other organization being ruled by a majority rather than one (dictatorship) or a few (oligarchy).

 

[Absentglare]

On the contrary, capitalism is the most Democratic of the systems. It is the one that puts the decision making power in the hands of the people, instead of the few deciders of more managed economies.

Sent from my XT1526 using Tapatalk

This is, literally, the polar opposite of the textbook definition of capitalism.

Socialism is democratic ownership.

Capitalism is where the economy is in the hands of a few deciders who manage the economy.

 

[James972]

Democracy simply means a government or other organization being ruled by a majority rather than one (dictatorship) or a few (oligarchy).

it actually means rule by the people, not by a majority. IF not then only 51% of the people would rule and 49% would have no ability to rule.

 

[James972]

Capitalism is where the economy is in the hands of a few deciders who manage the economy.

of course thats 100% absurd since there are 150 million private corporations in the world all competing to please us. Is 150 million with 2 billion owners a few???????????????? See why we say a liberal will be absurd??

 

[austrianecon]

Constitutional Republic is a form of democracy, my friend. I've been there as a right-libertarian. I know all the predictable arguments.

Uh, no and that's the catch many miss. Constitutional Republic means there is LIMITED power in the power of the voter and those they elect. For example.. if Bernie Sanders was elected President by electoral college (another example of not being a democracy)... because he has won doesn't mean he can do what he wants. Having an absolute major in the popular doesn't mean he has a mandate to do whatever he wants either. Limited power despite absolute majority is the anthesis to democracy.

Back to the electoral college.. We do not elect the President via popular vote, we elect him or her via Electoral college and it only takes 11 states to hit 270. That means 39 States could vote for the other guy.. and he'd still lose. We've had 4 cases in US history where A) the President didn't win the popular vote B) failed to get 50%, C) Electoral voter cast a vote other then what was "expected".

We all know 2000 election when Al Gore won the popular vote but still lost the Electoral College. Not many know that in 1992 Bill Clinton if the electoral college process was "democratic" wouldn't have satisfied the 270 threshold.

Reality is.. our President is not elected by the will of the people and this supports a two part system.. 21 States do not bind electoral college voters to the popular vote, either.

 

[austrianecon]

Wait, I just reread this and can't believe I missed it the first time. The irony of this statement is worthy of a :lamo

It doesn't. Democracy is the rule of the mob, the mob can take anyone's rights away. They can remove assets from the rich or prevent the rich from owning assets. Hence.. it's not democratic.

 

[James972]

It doesn't. Democracy is the rule of the mob, the mob can take anyone's rights away. They can remove assets from the rich or prevent the rich from owning assets. Hence.. it's not democratic.

or, the mob can cripple the poor with more and more welfare.

 

[Absentglare]

of course thats 100% absurd since there are 150 million private corporations in the world all competing to please us. Is 150 million with 2 billion owners a few???????????????? See why we say a liberal will be absurd??

In capitalism, the capital owners make the decisions on investment and production. The capital owners are a subset of the economic participants, and yet they control the economy. In a free market, there is no government, so there are no regulations on capital owners behavior, no taxes, and no public services- this means that the capital owners have complete control over the economic landscape.

Any interference of the public, via minimum wage, labor unions, laws, regulations, and taxes, constitutes a "socialist" influence insofar as it empowers society (socialism: social ownership of the means of production, society owns industry) to have limited control over the economic landscape.

I used socialism in quotes because a mixed economy is neither socialist nor capitalist. Many would have you believe that a mixed economy is capitalist, they may seek to pervert the word "socialism" to only indicate an absurd extreme while capitalism gets to occupy the entire remainder of the capitalism-socialism spectrum because they are either ignorant or dishonest.

Some economists claim that capitalism is the most successful economic system ever discovered. Of course, they are glossing over the fact that pure capitalism was stillborn and has never been attempted as it would require anarchy.

 

[James972]

In capitalism, the capital owners make the decisions on investment and production. .

yes and there are 2 billion of them in 50 countries. Is 2 billion a few???????? Slow???????