Geert Wilders on Track to Become Next Prime Minister of the Netherlands[W:91]

[coldjoint]

The Western world is not a receptacle, they invited/flew/boated them in by the millions to do the jobs the lazy and well to do Dutch and other European citizens where unwilling to do.

Years and years these people did the most horrible menial jobs (cleaning, dirty factory jobs, refuse collection) for which no or virtually no Dutch people (and I think it will be like that in most EU countries with a lot of immigrants) could be found to do those jobs.

And what Islam agenda? That they care about their own issues too? Newsflash!!!!! They live in Europe too and just like any other minority they care about their rights and try to get their gripes and wishes on the political agenda. This has nothing to do with Muhammed or his followers, that has to do with human nature.

That is all it has to do with. Stop lying to yourself and others.

 

[Chagos]

Because many believers do not significantly care about their religion and live as they personally fit rather than trying to rationally stick to dogmas written in what is obviously a horrible text for another age.

The good Muslims are the Muslims who do not care about the Koran and Muhammad. They used to amount to two thirds of Muslims, now it is one third, tomorrow it will probably be even less. Radicalism is advancing at the beat of Mars' trumpet.

That in no way addresses the logical conundrum I addressed. If one does not adhere to the concept of Islam, all of it being radical as is claimed, one cannot by those very parameters be a Muslim at all.

So say the advocates of the take of there being no moderate Islam, it's not me dreaming up this nonsense.

 

[Auvergnat]

That in no way addresses the logical conundrum I addressed. If one does not adhere to the concept of Islam, all of it being radical as is claimed, one cannot by those very parameters be a Muslim at all.

Do you really ignore that human beings are much more nuanced than this?

Do you really ignore that human beings are more emotional creatures than rational ones?

Do you really ignore that most never formalize their religious or political stances?

Do you really ignore that most claim some religion or ideology, yet reject parts of them?

Do you really ignore that one's beliefs are subject to contradictions and depend on what happened during the last five minutes and who he is presently talking to?

Do you really ignore that religions and ideologies are as much identities and cultures than they are sets of dogmas?

Even you should not be so ignorant about human nature.

 

[Chagos]

Do you really ignore that human beings are much more nuanced than this?

Do you really ignore that human beings are more emotional creatures than rational ones?

Do you really ignore that most never formalize their religious or political stances?

Do you really ignore that most claim some religion or ideology, yet reject parts of them?

Do you really ignore that one's beliefs are subject to contradictions and depend on what happened during the last five minutes and who he is presently talking to?

Do you really ignore that religions and ideologies are as much identities and cultures than they are sets of dogmas?

Even you should not be so ignorant about human nature.

All of which, rant as you may in completely unrelated directions in your habitual manner, in no way addresses the logical conundrum that I raised.

If you can't solve or, better said, choose to ignore it in the usual habit of jumping whichever other way serves personal convenience, that's okay.

Just don't complain if it makes you look incapable of serious debate, not to mention ignorant of the basic laws of logic.

 

[mbig]

That in no way addresses the logical conundrum I addressed. If one does not adhere to the concept of Islam, all of it being radical as is claimed, one cannot by those very parameters be a Muslim at all.

So say the advocates of the take of there being no moderate Islam, it's not me dreaming up this nonsense.

That's really Not true: like most of Your posts.
I am Jewish but adhere to No tenets of Judaism.
Similar is true of Most Christians who, in general, are Much more secular than Muslims.
Your disingenuous/Fallacious attempt at semantic argumentation ignores secularism which Auvergnat acknowledges. Literalism (to it's violent and intolerant Scripture), and Lack of Secularism being one of the biggest problems with Islam. In fact, 'secular Islam' ('reform Islam'?) would be considered Apostasy in a good deal of the Muslim world.
See those like Irshad Manji or...

Ibn Warraq: auithor of 'Why I Am Not A Muslim'
Secular Islam | Center for Inquiry
[.......]

Ah, but you are confusing Islam with Islamic fundamentalism. The Real Islam has nothing to do with violence,” Apologists of Islam argue.

There may be moderate Muslims, but Islam itself is not moderate. There is no difference between Islam and Islamic fundamentalism: at most there is a difference of degree but not of kind. All the tenets of Islamic fundamentalism are derived from the Qur’an, the Sunna, and the Hadith – Islamic fundamentalism is a totalitarian construct derived by Muslim jurists from the fundamental and defining texts of Islam. The fundamentalists, with greater logic and coherence than so-called moderate or liberal Muslims, have made Islam the basis of a radical utopian ideology that aims to replace capitalism and democracy as the reigning world system. Islamism accounts for the anti-American hatred to be found in places far from the Arab-Israeli conflict, like Nigeria and Afghanistan, demonstrating that the Middle East conflict cannot legitimately be used to explain this phenomenon called Islamism. A Palestinian involved in the WTC bombings would be seen as a martyr to the Palestinian cause, but even more as a martyr to Islam.

“Ah, but Islamic fundamentalism is like any other kind of fundamentalism, one must not demonise it. It is the result of political, social grievances. It must be explained in terms of economics and not religion,” continue the Apologists of Islam.

There are enormous differences between Islamic fundamentalism and any other kind of modern fundamentalism. It is true that Hindu, Jewish, and Christian fundamentalists have been responsible for acts of violence, but these have been confined to particular countries and regions. Islamic fundamentalism has global aspirations: the submission of the entire world to the all-embracing Shari’a, Islamic Law, a fascist system of dictates designed to control every single act of all individuals. Nor do Hindus or Jews seek to convert the world to their religion. Christians do indulge in proselytism but no longer use acts of violence or international terrorism to achieve their aims.
Only Islam treats non-believers as inferior beings who are expendable in the drive to world hegemony. Islam justifies any means to achieve the end of establishing an Islamic world.

Islamic fundamentalists recruit among Muslim populations, they appeal to Islamic religious symbols, and they motivate their recruits with Islamic doctrine derived from the Qur’an. Economic poverty alone cannot explain the phenomenon of Islamism. Poverty in Brazil or Mexico has not resulted in Christian fundamentalist acts of international terror. Islamists are against what they see as western materialism itself[/u]. Their choice is clear: Islam or jahiliyya. The latter term is redefined to mean modern-style jahiliyya of modern, democratic, industrialised societies of Europe and America, where man is under the dominion of man rather than Allah. They totally reject the values of the West, which they feel are poisoning Islamic culture. So, it is not just a question of economics, but of an entirely different worldview, which they wish to impose on the whole world. Sayyid Qutb, the very influential Egyptian Muslim thinker, said that “dominion should be reverted to Allah alone, namely to Islam, that holistic system He conferred upon men. An all-out offensive, a jihad, should be waged against modernity so that this moral rearmament could take place. The ultimate objective is to re-establish the Kingdom of Allah upon earth...”​

 

[Peter King]

That is all it has to do with. Stop lying to yourself and others.

Nope, it is not all it has to do with, the issue of immigration is a sensitive and complex issue and can never be solved by ignoring the issue or making it into an Mount Everest size (like Wilders does) and not have anything workable solution for the issue (something that Wilders has no clue about how to solve it).

And thankfully I know I am telling the truth and will keep on telling it and speaking up against the people (on both sides, left and right) who are making the problem worse instead of better.

 

[Manc Skipper]

Islam is not a 'race'. To suggest that any criticism of this unpleasant creed is 'racist' is entirely mistaken. Islam is an absolutist world view, philosophy, religion and political programme. It is inimical to Western standards of democracy, justice and equality. It is outstandingly intolerant - to suggest that absolute intolerance must be tolerated is to stand reason on its head.

There are indeed moderate Muslims but there is no such thing as moderate Islam.

Yawn. Islam is racist code for "nasty brown foreif=gners who need killing before they kill us"

 

[coldjoint]

Nope, it is not all it has to do with, the issue of immigration is a sensitive and complex issue and can never be solved by ignoring the issue or making it into an Mount Everest size (like Wilders does) and not have anything workable solution for the issue (something that Wilders has no clue about how to solve it).

And thankfully I know I am telling the truth and will keep on telling it and speaking up against the people (on both sides, left and right) who are making the problem worse instead of better.

It is not complex and you are ignoring the stark differences between cultures. Do you want your culture or not? And the problem gets worse right along with Muslim increases in the population. It will get better when Muslim immigration ceases.

 

[coldjoint]

Yawn. Islam is racist code for "nasty brown foreif=gners who need killing before they kill us"

Not what he said. But that doesn't stop you from saying he did. Can we stop lying about what others say?

 

[Sweden]

Yawn. Islam is racist code for "nasty brown foreif=gners who need killing before they kill us"

I would like to thank you for a well expressed and thoughtful comment. Indeed, I will do so should you ever make one.

 

[Chagos]

I would like to thank you for a well expressed and thoughtful comment. Indeed, I will do so should you ever make one.

Back at ya.

And I won't share into general insinuating (here yours that the case for thanks is unlikely to arise), seeing how, in another thread, I found cause to give your informative outlining of Swedish rape laws presenting a totally different set-up than in other countries, a like.

 

[Peter King]

It is not complex and you are ignoring the stark differences between cultures. Do you want your culture or not? And the problem gets worse right along with Muslim increases in the population. It will get better when Muslim immigration ceases.

It's not complex :lamo

Sure, that is why countries have such an easy time dealing with immigration. :roll:

And the problem is not getting worse in the future because the Muslim population (as a percentage of the population) will decrease. The second generation Muslim immigrants are having less and less children and are almost as child-limited as non-immigrant Dutch people.

It will get better when people start respecting each other and all immigrants are properly pushed to integrate into our society and the natural born people allow them to do so/help them integrate properly.

 

[Abbazorkzog]

I would like to agree that Wilders will not become Dutch PM, but with the recent election of Trump, I'm not claiming anything.

 

[coldjoint]

It's not complex :lamo

Sure, that is why countries have such an easy time dealing with immigration. :roll:

And the problem is not getting worse in the future because the Muslim population (as a percentage of the population) will decrease. The second generation Muslim immigrants are having less and less children and are almost as child-limited as non-immigrant Dutch people.

It will get better when people start respecting each other and all immigrants are properly pushed to integrate into our society and the natural born people allow them to do so/help them integrate properly.

The basic things are not complex. Islam is intolerant, you are not going to change that. Talking about it won't change it either. You are not going to change the fact Muslims are told not to respect us. What makes you think that has vanished? It is preached every Friday in a mosque, and some Muslims listen.

 

[coldjoint]

I would like to agree that Wilders will not become Dutch PM, but with the recent election of Trump, I'm not claiming anything.

Postponing the inevitable confrontation won't stop it. The Dutch will do better handling Islam on Dutch terms. Wilders is what all of Europe needs.

 

[Peter King]

The basic things are not complex. Islam is intolerant, you are not going to change that. Talking about it won't change it either. You are not going to change the fact Muslims are told not to respect us. What makes you think that has vanished? It is preached every Friday in a mosque, and some Muslims listen.

Nonsense, the issue is very very very very complex. All strict religions and doctrines are intolerant but thank goodness most Muslims are not intolerant. There is no "one Muslim" that fits all Muslims, Muslims are as diverse as most religions are.

 

[Peter King]

Postponing the inevitable confrontation won't stop it. The Dutch will do better handling Islam on Dutch terms. Wilders is what all of Europe needs.

Nobody needs Wilders, not the Dutch and certainly not Europe.

 

[coldjoint]

Nonsense, the issue is very very very very complex. All strict religions and doctrines are intolerant but thank goodness most Muslims are not intolerant. There is no "one Muslim" that fits all Muslims, Muslims are as diverse as most religions are.

Not of other human beings. Islam does that.

 

[coldjoint]

Nobody needs Wilders, not the Dutch and certainly not Europe.

Wilders 2017!

 

[Abbazorkzog]

Wilders 2017!

:doh
,

 

[Lafayette]

:doh

Cute, but clearly an understatement ... :shock:

 

[Lafayette]

I guess they are finally getting fed up with the kids running the asylum and feel the need to become adults again.

And what if you guess wrong?

Enjoy the classic reaction to the generalized economic condition of miasma. Even General Franco is polling well in Spain.

It wont last, Europe is on the mend. As for the BS-artist Wilders, let's see what the actual election results show ...

 

[Lafayette]

The most recent Dutch poll shows that the People's Party for Freedom and Democracy (VVD) is ahead of the Party for Freedom (PVV) by 1%, 28% to 27%. But 240 days ago, PVV took 33%, while VVD was only 25%. Geert Wilders' popularity may be on the wane because of the ongoing hate speech trial in the Netherlands.

"May be"?

You are too kind to the jerk ...

 

[Peter King]

Wilders 2017!

Wilders never!!

 

[Peter King]

Not of other human beings. Islam does that.

Yeah, the Catholic church was the pillar of tolerance during it's most powerful period :lamo