Does a Trump win save democracy?

[eohrnberger]

I think that an erosion of faith in voting is a bigger threat to democracy than any one term by any one person.

First premise: Voting IS a faith-based endeavor. Voters have to have faith that the system is fair. By this I mean that the vast majority of voters have zero proof that their vote was recorded as they intended it to be cast. It’s basically a black box system for most people. Push button and have faith in the system after that.

This 'faith' somewhat shaken when this is what the left is thinking:

"It is obvious now. The 2024 election must be won by Democrats with a smashing defeat of the GOP from President on down."​

This appears to be what the left is willing to do about it:

The elite 1%—individuals who make over $150,000 a year, live in densely populated areas, and have postgraduate degrees—are overwhelmingly liberal. They give President Joe Biden an 82% approval rating, compared to his 40% average from the rest of Americans.​

​

Rasmussen asked these liberal voters: “Suppose that your favorite candidate loses a close election. However, people on the campaign know that they can win by cheating without being caught. Would you rather have your candidate win by cheating or lose by playing fair?”​

​

Among all Americans, just 7% said they would want their candidate to win by cheating. But that number rose to 35% among the elite 1% and skyrocketed to 69% among those who are part of the politically obsessed 1%, meaning they talk about politics every day.​

Politically Obsessed Elites Say It’s OK to Win by Cheating

"I've been polling for a very long time and the last finding is the most terrifying poll result I've ever seen," Scott Rasmussen says.

www.dailysignal.com

(bolding mine)
The prudent position would be to believe the left intends to do exactly what they appear to be saying that they are prepared to do.

Talk about degrading 'faith' in Democratic institutions, specifically elections.

Second premise: Election deniers belief that the system is rigged will only be exacerbated by a Biden win. Democrats would be unhappy but will likely accept the results.

I’m sure some deniers would claim a Trump win was 5-D chess by the cabal to trick conservatives the system isn’t rigged, but wouldn’t some have to begin to believe in the system again?

 

[Donatello]

I think that an erosion of faith in voting is a bigger threat to democracy than any one term by any one person.

First premise: Voting IS a faith-based endeavor. Voters have to have faith that the system is fair. By this I mean that the vast majority of voters have zero proof that their vote was recorded as they intended it to be cast. It’s basically a black box system for most people. Push button and have faith in the system after that.

Second premise: Election deniers belief that the system is rigged will only be exacerbated by a Biden win. Democrats would be unhappy but will likely accept the results.

I’m sure some deniers would claim a Trump win was 5-D chess by the cabal to trick conservatives the system isn’t rigged, but wouldn’t some have to begin to believe in the system again?

By your definition, all of Govt. is a faith based endeavor. And you seem to believe that everyone will play fair. Do you remember the fake electors? Are you comfortable that both sides have the correct checks and balances in place, (recount procedures, auditing) to assure a fair election? If not, why not?

 

[Visbek]

I’m sure some deniers would claim a Trump win was 5-D chess by the cabal to trick conservatives the system isn’t rigged, but wouldn’t some have to begin to believe in the system again?

No.

Whatever faith that might theoretically restore, it would be lost the instant any Democrat won any elected office.

The election deniers are permanently aggrieved, and Republican elected officials have spent years feeding, and feeding off, that mistrust, bitterness and grievance.

For example, it finally dawned on Republican elected officials that their incessant attacks on mail-in voting were hurting their own candidates. So, they've tried to encourage people to mail in their votes; but a lot of the "base" is not buying it.

The chalice is already poisoned. One national election is not going to change that.

 

[Tbird19482]

I agree. If a sizable portion of Americans do not trust that we have free and fair elections something is seriously wrong.

I partially disagree on that one. I think the states that run elections by traditional methods such as one day in person voting with traditional absentee balloting allowed, have passed and enforce voter ID laws and prohibit such things as ballot harvesting and drop boxes are trustworthy. I have complete faith in my state that my vote is counted and not canceled out by someone not legally entitled to vote.

Sadly at least one presidential election was rigged. I don't think any seriously objective person actually believes that Joe Biden, who could not draw much more then flies to his rallies in 2020 could actually earned over 80 million votes, when for instance the very charasmatic president he served under could not garner that many votes. My point is that for presidential elections to be trusted, all states should have the same safeguards, which in my opinion includes same day in person voting while allowing traditional absentee balloting (not mass mailout), no ballot harvesting, and no drop boxes.

and yet you conservatives have been saying this " at least one presidential election was rigged." and still haven't brought forward any evidence to back up that the 2020 election was rigged.
and YES one election MAY have been rigged and should be looked into and that is the 2016 election as I said TRUMP came out BEFORE it was even held and said it was rigged.
again aren't things usually " RIGGED " in favor of the winner and Trump won so maybe they should investigate the 2016 election , seeing Trump said it was rigged BEFORE it was held, how did he know that , who rigged it ( Trump ? ) how was it rigged , and a lot more questions ,
Yes you are right ONE of these elections may have been rigged and the need to look into the 2016 election and not the 2020 election
Have a nice day

 

[LetsGoBrandon]

and yet you conservatives have been saying this " at least one presidential election was rigged." and still haven't brought forward any evidence to back up that the 2020 election was rigged.

The only evidence I need regarding the 2020 election is several states using pandemic porn to push a mad rush to unsecure mass mailout balloting, and at a lesser level ballot harvesting and unsecure drop boxes.

and YES one election MAY have been rigged and should be looked into and that is the 2016 election as I said TRUMP came out BEFORE it was even held and said it was rigged.
again aren't things usually " RIGGED " in favor of the winner and Trump won so maybe they should investigate the 2016 election , seeing Trump said it was rigged BEFORE it was held, how did he know that , who rigged it ( Trump ? ) how was it rigged , and a lot more questions ,
Yes you are right ONE of these elections may have been rigged and the need to look into the 2016 election and not the 2020 election
Have a nice day

To a point the 2016 election was rigged as well. Ask the Bernie Sanders supporters. The primaries and the DNC Convention were clearly rigged. And the Russian Cllusion hoax was a rigged effort to either deny Trump victory or go after him if he won.

 

[Loulit01]

As long as we hold elections, we're no less a democracy.

Russia holds elections.

 

[Visbek]

This 'faith' somewhat shaken when this is what the left is thinking:

"It is obvious now. The 2024 election must be won by Democrats with a smashing defeat of the GOP from President on down."​

As opposed to the right, which insisted that 2016 was a "Flight 93 election," the last chance to save America from total disaster? That conservatives have no choice but to "charge the cockpit or die" ? (Note: Even the author of that memo stepped back from that bullshit by 2020.)

This appears to be what the left is willing to do about it....

Rasmussen

Spare us the bullshit. When Trump got elected, women flocked to DC for a peaceful protest. When Biden got elected, Trumpettes attacked the Capital Building in an attempted coup.

The prudent position would be to believe the left intends to do exactly what they appear to be saying that they are prepared to do.

Defend the right to vote, and increase democratic participation? Yup, sounds about right.

Talk about degrading 'faith' in Democratic institutions, specifically elections.

Talk about an accusation being a confession!

It's not 1967. The left stopped attacking democratic institutions decades ago.

In contrast, Republicans have spent the past several decades undermining democracy, elections, and governance in general. In the past decade, they've ramped up their wildly false and unsubstantiated allegations about fraud, insisting that it happens even as they can't find any, and the courts repeatedly confirm the lack of fraud.

If anyone is corroding faith in elections and democracy these days, it isn't the left.

 

[Tbird19482]

The only evidence I need regarding the 2020 election is several states using pandemic porn to push a mad rush to unsecure mass mailout balloting, and at a lesser level ballot harvesting and unsecure drop boxes.

To a point the 2016 election was rigged as well. Ask the Bernie Sanders supporters. The primaries and the DNC Convention were clearly rigged. And the Russian Cllusion hoax was a rigged effort to either deny Trump victory or go after him if he won.

and yet there has been NO evidence that there was any fraud , or enough fraud to have made any difference in the out come.
I believe I read it was way less then 1% .
and again it was TRUMP that said it was rigged WAY WAY BEFORE IT WAS EVEN HELD.
That is something that should be looked into.
Have a nice day

 

[Zyphlin]

Trump winning or losing doesn't do anything to “democracy” let alone American “democracy” or more accurate “republicanism”. Our country and it's institutions are stronger than people seem to be giving it credit for and one person isn't going to doom it. This ridiculous hyperbole goes with the over use of the term “existential” in our current world. Everything has to be made out to be the worst ever, the end of everything, etc because we’ve became a short sited, self centered society

 

[Individual]

Russia holds elections.

How democratic of them.

 

[eohrnberger]

The only evidence I need regarding the 2020 election is several states using pandemic porn to push a mad rush to unsecure mass mailout balloting, and at a lesser level ballot harvesting and unsecure drop boxes.

To a point the 2016 election was rigged as well. Ask the Bernie Sanders supporters. The primaries and the DNC Convention were clearly rigged. And the Russian Cllusion hoax was a rigged effort to either deny Trump victory or go after him if he won.

In addition (from another thread but applicable to your topic)

79% say ‘truthful’ coverage of Hunter Biden’s laptop would have changed 2020 election

Among Republicans, 57% were strongly convinced Trump would have won, compared to 48% of independents and just 44% of Democrats.

nypost.com

Question: What sort of Democracy buries relevant info the electorate needs to know in order to make an informed decision?

 

[LetsGoBrandon]

and yet there has been NO evidence that there was any fraud , or enough fraud to have made any difference in the out come.
I believe I read it was way less then 1% .
and again it was TRUMP that said it was rigged WAY WAY BEFORE IT WAS EVEN HELD.
That is something that should be looked into.
Have a nice day

and again it was TRUMP that said it was rigged WAY WAY BEFORE IT WAS EVEN HELD.
That is something that should be looked into.

Trump was quite aware that the Russian Collusion hoax was already under way and the democrat "supermajority delegate" system has been a form of rigging in the democrat primaries for quite some time.

Have a nice day

You as well.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

I don't like it, for there is no way of knowing if my vote was tabulated correctly.

Actually thats incorrect, you can always work as a poll worker, get informed and educated, and learn something about the system. Its nobody's fault but yours if you decide to remain ignorant about it.

 

[LetsGoBrandon]

In addition (from another thread but applicable to your topic)

Good point. The democrats pushed social media giants like Twitter and Facebook to immediately brand the Hunter laptop stories as disinformation.

 

[PoliSciPulse]

I don't think Trump being re-elected will save faith in Democracy. This is especially true if he and his white supremacist brethren (no, not every Trump supporter is a White Supremacist -- just talking about the "bigly" ones like the Proud Boys) engaged in voter suppression.

What needs to happen, instead, is that voters need to be better informed. Chris Christie (R-NJ) to his credit, when he was interviewed on CNN, did a step-by-step takedown of Trump's claims. There were also many open questions I had, such as, "What stops a vote counter from opening a ballot, whiting out the name, putting it in a new envelope, and then counting it," other than the fact that it's against the law? A criminal is gonna criminal. Another good one that's never been explained in a way I can understand is, "What failsafes do Dominion and other electronic voting devices have in place if someone tried to tamper with it?" I knew suspect voting machines were automatically taken off the lines, but what indication was given that it may have been tampered with? Etc.

I imagine there were several failsafes in play especially because of the large volume of mail-in votes that were expected due to the pandemic. These needed to be explained much better than they were. Voter education about "newer" or "less often used" methods of voting were key. The media fell down on the job, and Fox News especially took advantage of their audience's ignorance.

Could a generic voter search for these concerns? Yes. But sometimes, you have to spoon-feed the knowledge to lead someone to water.

 

[Bugsy]

Good point. The democrats pushed social media giants like Twitter and Facebook to immediately brand the Hunter laptop stories as disinformation.

This ALONE proves election rigging. Had the truth been made available to the electorate, Trump would have had his second term.

I know this will make all the Libbie heads explode but...

C'est la vie.

 

[Taylor]

Trump is also hugely unpopular way more so than Biden
Amazing isnt that those that like him love him those that dislike him loathe him

Nope. People like Biden even less.

 

[Tbird19482]

Trump was quite aware that the Russian Collusion hoax was already under way and the democrat "supermajority delegate" system has been a form of rigging in the democrat primaries for quite some time.

You as well.

when was he talking about the DEM Primaries ?
Trump was talking about the Presidential election.
Have a nice day

 

[Brack]

I agree. If a sizable portion of Americans do not trust that we have free and fair elections something is seriously wrong.

I partially disagree on that one. I think the states that run elections by traditional methods such as one day in person voting with traditional absentee balloting allowed, have passed and enforce voter ID laws and prohibit such things as ballot harvesting and drop boxes are trustworthy. I have complete faith in my state that my vote is counted and not canceled out by someone not legally entitled to vote.

Sadly at least one presidential election was rigged. I don't think any seriously objective person actually believes that Joe Biden, who could not draw much more then flies to his rallies in 2020 could actually earned over 80 million votes, when for instance the very charasmatic president he served under could not garner that many votes. My point is that for presidential elections to be trusted, all states should have the same safeguards, which in my opinion includes same day in person voting while allowing traditional absentee balloting (not mass mailout), no ballot harvesting, and no drop boxes.

That's bull.

Arizona (swing state) has had no-excuse mail-in voting since the early 1990s. Republicans who have won this state with no-excuse mail-in voting include Bush in 2000 and in 2004, McCain in 2008, Romney in 2012 and Trump in 2016.

Biden didn't do the big campaign rallies in 2020 due to the pandemic. The 2020 presidential election is the most investigated and scrutinized election in US history. Hand recounts of the paper ballots confirmed that Biden won. Link

'Truth is truth': Trump dealt blow as Republican-led Arizona audit reaffirms Biden win

Donald Trump lost the 2020 presidential election to Joe Biden in Arizona's most populous county, a review of results by his allies in the Republican Party has reaffirmed, capping a widely panned effort spurred by Trump's false claims of voter fraud.

www.reuters.com

 

[PoliSciPulse]

This ALONE proves election rigging. Had the truth been made available to the electorate, Trump would have had his second term.

I know this will make all the Libbie heads explode but...

C'est la vie.

Not election rigging. If it was election rigging, MSNBC and Fox News presenters would have been subject to criminal charges a long time ago, well before Trump's time. All that Facebook and Twitter did was add their opinion and presented it as fact, just like MSNBC, Fox News, and all the other networks did.

To prove election rigging, you would have to prove that the Biden campaign colluded with Facebook and Twitter specifically to censor the Hunter Biden story -before- he was President. Not entirely sure you can prove that. You can prove the "collusion" with COVID stories because President Joe Biden asked them to do that (personally, I think it was the right thing to do because it was a public health crisis -- but this is all up for interpretation and depends on what side you are on -- my opinion is not a universal truth). Do not remember the same proof for the Hunter Biden laptop. If someone can prove me wrong, I will gladly examine the proof you provide.

 

[eohrnberger]

Good point. The democrats pushed social media giants like Twitter and Facebook to immediately brand the Hunter laptop stories as disinformation.

Oh, that's just the tip of the iceberg.
There are all kinds of electorate manipulation, information hiding, and gross misrepresentation instances where Democrats, their accomplices in the federal bureaucracy, and their accomplices in the DNC political propaganda lamestream media influenced / manipulated the electorate for the election outcome they wanted.

Hell, the left even bragged about it in print, if you can imagine.

The Secret History of the Shadow Campaign That Saved the 2020 Election

For more than a year, a loosely organized coalition of operatives scrambled to shore up America’s institutions

time.com

All those 'ZuckerBucks' were all legal, right?

https://www.npr.org/2022/10/27/1131907041/facebook-meta-campaign-finance-fine

Hardly.

And on and on it goes. Making the below, hardly a surprise to anyone who's been paying any sort of attention.

This is what the left is thinking:

"It is obvious now. The 2024 election must be won by Democrats with a smashing defeat of the GOP from President on down."​

This appears to be what the left is willing to do about it:

The elite 1%—individuals who make over $150,000 a year, live in densely populated areas, and have postgraduate degrees—are overwhelmingly liberal. They give President Joe Biden an 82% approval rating, compared to his 40% average from the rest of Americans.​

​

Rasmussen asked these liberal voters: “Suppose that your favorite candidate loses a close election. However, people on the campaign know that they can win by cheating without being caught. Would you rather have your candidate win by cheating or lose by playing fair?”​

​

Among all Americans, just 7% said they would want their candidate to win by cheating. But that number rose to 35% among the elite 1% and skyrocketed to 69% among those who are part of the politically obsessed 1%, meaning they talk about politics every day.​

Politically Obsessed Elites Say It’s OK to Win by Cheating

"I've been polling for a very long time and the last finding is the most terrifying poll result I've ever seen," Scott Rasmussen says.

www.dailysignal.com

(bolding mine)
The prudent position would be to believe the left intends to do exactly what they appear to be saying that they are prepared to do.

Talk about degrading Democratic institutions, specifically elections.

There had better not be any 'irregularities' in this November's elections, else it will have likely threaten the nation's Democracy.

 

[Bugsy]

I don't think Trump being re-elected will save faith in Democracy. This is especially true if he and his white supremacist brethren (no, not every Trump supporter is a White Supremacist -- just talking about the "bigly" ones like the Proud Boys) engaged in voter suppression.

@PoliSciPulse
As opposed to ANTIFA and BLM?

both parties have their extremities. One side tries to distance themselves from their extremities...the other side embraces their extremities.

Now...what voter suppression might we be talkin' 'bout?

 

[PoliSciPulse]

@PoliSciPulse
As opposed to ANTIFA and BLM?

both parties have their extremities. One side tries to distance themselves from their extremities...the other side embraces their extremities.

Now...what voter suppression might we be talkin' 'bout?

Specifically, the ones that make the news. Here's the standard in specific: During the Obama election(s), there was news going around about the Black Panthers scaring voters by brandishing weapons. I would say if Trump's cadre, or "Antifa" (which isn't really an organization in the sense of officially existing last I knew) or BLM (which -is- an organization) did the same, that would be the "voter suppression" I would be talking about.

Also, Republicans don't distance themselves from their political extremes. They use them to their advantage. It's how the TEA Party became part of the GOP, which led to the Trump takeover of the GOP. GOP leaned into Trump in 2016 because it saw the political benefit. Now, he's useful to be kept an arm's length.

Democrats did the same thing with BLM, ANFITA, and Occupy Wall Street (Remember them?). Except the problem is, with at least Occupy Wall Street, was if these movements wanted to influence government, they had to go the way of the TEA Party. Occupy, especially, seemed to believe that it had its own government and could play by a unofficial (and at times Constitutionally illegal -- they wanted to punish bankers for doing what was legal at the time, remember?) set of rules. BLM was absolutely fine until it splintered and you have like the regular BLM and the extreme BLM, and no Democrat I know wants to go the route of the extreme BLM -- which means they have to distance themselves from BLM as a whole since the extreme wing is the most visible. Then, you have ANTIFA, which Biden discarded as "an idea.," if you remember. If you read between the lines, if ANTIFA is "an idea," then you can't really negotiate with them or speak with them because they don't exist in a form that you're able to talk to. Yes, it minimized some of the misbehavior, but it also delegitimized them as an organization that he could approach in the same breath.

 

[Bugsy]

Not election rigging. If it was election rigging, MSNBC and Fox News presenters would have been subject to criminal charges a long time ago, well before Trump's time. All that Facebook and Twitter did was add their opinion and presented it as fact, just like MSNBC, Fox News, and all the other networks did.

To prove election rigging, you would have to prove that the Biden campaign colluded with Facebook and Twitter specifically to censor the Hunter Biden story -before- he was President. Not entirely sure you can prove that. You can prove the "collusion" with COVID stories because President Joe Biden asked them to do that (personally, I think it was the right thing to do because it was a public health crisis -- but this is all up for interpretation and depends on what side you are on -- my opinion is not a universal truth). Do not remember the same proof for the Hunter Biden laptop. If someone can prove me wrong, I will gladly examine the proof you provide.

So you've never heard of The Twitter Files?

Ok...examine them.

 

[Geoist]

The USA is both a republic and a democracy

Nooo! A lion can't also be a cat!!