Court Rules Wisconsin Right-to-Work Law Is Unconstitutional (1 Viewer)

[maquiscat]

The voucher system (like school choice in public schools) is contingent on whether their is enough room in the school. The biggest difference between those two choices is one can kick out students that they find not meeting the bar and the other will be in trouble for not having those students meet the bar.

The problem then became when there is one school who can help my child better then the one whose district I am in, and another child in that school who would do better in my child's school. Neither of us parents can afford to move just to get into the district but can afford the transportation. So why should we be stuck in those schools? And I have yet to be in a school district where it was easy to get your child into a different school even if seats were available.

 

[maquiscat]

Where do you live that private schools other those run by and paid in part by churches charge less per student than public schools?

I will have to go hunting for the figures, but it is something that has come up in other voucher/school choice threads before. Mike you that is an average. So yes there are private schools that will cost way more than public schools. Something to be considered also is what is being factored into that cost. Private schools have a lot less administration than public schools. So if the board of ed's entire budget is figured in that might be a factor. Which then brings in the question of whether public systems are over staffed.

 

[minnie616]

So given this figure either handicapped students are getting short changed in the public schools, or funds have to be taken from other students to cover their costs. Unless you have something to show that schools with the handicapped get more per handicapped student.

The schools are underfunded.
They are required to teach the disabled , which cost about 2 times at much as a non disabled. Child.

The topic of federal funding has been a concern since PL 94-142 (the Education of All Handicapped Children Act, now the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act or IDEA) was passed in 1975. Within this law was a promise of major funding for special education: this legislation mandated that 40 percent of all special education funding would be provided by the federal government. While this level of federal funding is still the expressed goal of many, in reality, this funding has not exceeded 17 percent and typically is closer to 11 to 12 percent. ...

IDEA is called the largest “unfunded” law ever passed, in that funds were promised, but the amount that has been given has fluctuated and has never reached the level stated in the law. Of course, this might be unfair in that the number of students who were identified as having disabilities far exceeded estimation, and other factors have entered the picture.

Federal funding for public school children with disabilities instruction?

 

[minnie616]

That is absolute baloney. I attended Catholic School myself. At the time I was enrolled, I was a southern baptist. There was no requirement to be a catholic or even be baptized as a condition of enrollment.

They were not required to.

From this article:

Because they’re autonomous, private schools are free to offer religious education, or curriculum not regulated by state standards. Some good schools are not accredited, although most are. Accreditation ensures that the school meets regional or national standards set by a group of peers. It also ensures that the school’s administration and academic programs undergo review by an outside group at least once every few years.


Private schools are not required to accept every child and often require extensive applications that involve multiple interviews, essays, and testing. Private schools can be extremely selective: not only can they choose students based on their academic achievement but also their ethnicity, gender, and religion, as well as the special attributes (or assets) of their parents.

Many private schools do not have special education programs or teachers trained to work with special learning disabilities (unless they are a private school created with such a population in mind). Some private schools will try to help all the students they admit, but extra resources may come at an additional cost. Other private schools quietly recommend that children with learning disabilities look elsewhere for special education. In contrast, public schools must offer children with disabilities a “free and appropriate public education” which means special services tailored to their needs and free testing.

Public vs. private vs. charter schools | GreatKids

 

[minnie616]

I will have to go hunting for the figures, but it is something that has come up in other voucher/school choice threads before. Mike you that is an average. So yes there are private schools that will cost way more than public schools. Something to be considered also is what is being factored into that cost. Private schools have a lot less administration than public schools. So if the board of ed's entire budget is figured in that might be a factor. Which then brings in the question of whether public systems are over staffed.

From the following article:

A 2014 article on school costs in Money reaches a similar conclusion. It compares the cost of private versus public school for two fictitious families living in eastern Massachusetts: One family spends $2,120 a month on a median-priced home in the village of Auburndale, which has some of the best public schools in the country; the other spends $998 a month for a home in a neighborhood with average schools, plus an average of $782 a month for private school tuition.

Adding these two costs together, the private-schooling family comes out ahead by $340 a month. However, the math changes completely if both families have two children. In that case, the public-schooling family saves a total of $70,000 over the course of both their kids’ school years.

Private School vs. Public School - Cost & Comparison

 

[minnie616]

And from this article:

On the other hand, private schools do not receive tax revenues but are funded through tuition, donations and private grants. Therefore, private schools cost more than the public schools.
According to National Association of Independent Schools, the median tuition fee for private day schools in the United States is close to $12,000 for grades 1 to 3, $13,000 for grades 6 to 8 and $15,000 for grades 9 to 12. The median tuition fee for boarding schools is $12,000 for grades 1 to 3, $27,000 for grades 6 to 9, and $28,000 for grades 9 to 12.
Fees in parochial schools are a little less. Another study found that parochial schools cost $4,200 a year while other private schools charge $8,500 per student.

Public School vs. Private School | PublicSchoolReview.com

 

[CanadaJohn]

While I have been supporting your overall point here, I have to argue this point. The majority of the money is either going into the administration and union pockets, or if to the teachers, so spread out as to make their pay a joke compared to most private individual's pay yet alone other union jobs.

Having worked in education administration for over 30 years prior to retirement, I can assure you that over 80% of all public school funding through taxation goes into paying teacher salaries and benefits. Perhaps here in Canada it's different, but here in Toronto, where I worked, the average teacher salary was in the mid $90,000 range because well over 50% of the teachers in the system were at the top of their pay grid after about 10 years in the system.

 

[minnie616]

Having worked in education administration for over 30 years prior to retirement, I can assure you that over 80% of all public school funding through taxation goes into paying teacher salaries and benefits. Perhaps here in Canada it's different, but here in Toronto, where I worked, the average teacher salary was in the mid $90,000 range because well over 50% of the teachers in the system were at the top of their pay grid after about 10 years in the system.

According to the Florida Department of Education, during the 2012-2013 school year teachers made an average of $46,583 a year.

On national average about 80 percent goes for salaries and benefits.
10 percent for services
8 per cent for supplies

The Condition of Education - Elementary and Secondary Education - Finance - Public School Expenditures - Indicator May (2015)

 

[CanadaJohn]

According to the Florida Department of Education, during the 2012-2013 school year teachers made an average of $46,583 a year.

On national average about 80 percent goes for salaries and benefits.
10 percent for services
8 per cent for supplies

The Condition of Education - Elementary and Secondary Education - Finance - Public School Expenditures - Indicator May (2015)

Regardless of the dollar figures, the ratio remains the same - above 80% of all public school funding goes to teacher salaries and benefits.

 

[minnie616]

Regardless of the dollar figures, the ratio remains the same - above 80% of all public school funding goes to teacher salaries and benefits.

Correct. I posted the link that in the US about 80 percent of public funding funding also goes to teachers salaries and benefits.

 

[CanadaJohn]

Correct. I posted the link that in the US about 80 percent of public funding funding also goes to teachers salaries and benefits.

Which begs the question, do you really believe that public school teachers, on the whole, are better able to serve special needs children than those schools that specialize in those services, considering that there is precious little extra funding left in the public system, with its facilities costs and bloated administration, to fund the extras?

 

[minnie616]

Which begs the question, do you really believe that public school teachers, on the whole, are better able to serve special needs children than those schools that specialize in those services, considering that there is precious little extra funding left in the public system, with its facilities costs and bloated administration, to fund the extras?

10 percent goes to services including special education.
How much goes to special ed in private schools?

As I posted earlier

Many private schools do not have special education programs or teachers trained to work with special learning disabilities (unless they are a private school created with such a population in mind). Some private schools will try to help all the students they admit, but extra resources may come at an additional cost. Other private schools quietly recommend that children with learning disabilities look elsewhere for special education. In contrast, public schools must offer children with disabilities a “free and appropriate public education” which means special services tailored to their needs and free testing.

Public vs. private vs. charter schools | GreatKids

When we inquired about sending our oldest daughter ( who had speech problems ) to a private school, they told us she would get more help in the public school where they had the specialists to teach her.

 

[CanadaJohn]

10 percent goes to services including special education.
How much goes to special ed in private schools?

As I posted earlier


Public vs. private vs. charter schools | GreatKids

When we inquired about sending our oldest daughter ( who had speech problems ) to a private school, they told us she would get more help in the public school where they had the specialists to teach her.

You're trying to tell me that 10% of the total budgets, over an above teacher salaries, goes to special education services? When pigs fly.

I worked for a school board that had a budget of just under $1 billion dollars annually and less than 5% of that total went to special education and that 5% included teacher salaries. The vast majority of public school funding that goes to special education, like any other program, goes to teacher salaries.

It is impossible to argue that the public school system, that provides cookie cutter services to all children would be better equipped to serve the specialized needs of all children than if parents could direct their child's education dollars to a school designed to serve their child's needs.

You talk about what exists - I talk about what should be. You can't get to where I think education should be if you're wedded to a public school system that fails the majority and badly services the minority with special needs.

 

[minnie616]

You're trying to tell me that 10% of the total budgets, over an above teacher salaries, goes to special education services? When pigs fly.

I worked for a school board that had a budget of just under $1 billion dollars annually and less than 5% of that total went to special education and that 5% included teacher salaries. The vast majority of public school funding that goes to special education, like any other program, goes to teacher salaries.

It is impossible to argue that the public school system, that provides cookie cutter services to all children would be better equipped to serve the specialized needs of all children than if parents could direct their child's education dollars to a school designed to serve their child's needs.

You talk about what exists - I talk about what should be. You can't get to where I think education should be if you're wedded to a public school system that fails the majority and badly services the minority with special needs.

And as I posted there are very few private schools for the disabled and they usually are quite pricey.

Independent Schools for Students with LD | DyslexiaHelp at the University of Michigan

My sis in law sent her son who has learning disabilities to Eaton Academy in Birmingham , Mi

Besides having to provide her own transportation for him the yearly fee for day school K - 8 was a close to $20,000 a year.

Tuition:* $19,900

Tuition & Fees | Eaton Academy

Even so Eaton only gets a rating of 3 out 10

Ratings and Reviews for Eton Academy in Birmingham MI | Zillow

Nearby elementary public schools rated 6 and 8

See same link

 

[CanadaJohn]

And as I posted there are very few private schools for the disabled and they usually are quite pricey.

Independent Schools for Students with LD | DyslexiaHelp at the University of Michigan

My sis in law sent her son who has learning disabilities to Eaton Academy in Birmingham , Mi

Besides having to provide her own transportation for him the yearly fee for day school K - 8 was a close to $20,000 a year.

Tuition:* $19,900

Tuition & Fees | Eaton Academy

Even so Eaton only gets a rating of 3 out 10

Ratings and Reviews for Eton Academy in Birmingham MI | Zillow

Nearby elementary public schools rated 6 and 8

See same link

And again - you want to focus on what is - while I am focused on what could be.

Nothing will change as long as all taxation follows the public school system and doesn't follow where the child wants to go. You seem incapable of imagining what could happen if all special needs children had their education dollars follow them. Imagine thousands and thousands of special needs children with $thousands of education dollars, looking for the best possible placement to serve their needs. You don't think schools that specialize in servicing those needs wouldn't pop up and expand almost overnight? They don't exist now or are prohibitively expensive because parents have to foot the entire bill themselves. If that wasn't the case, the parents would be lining up to get in and one thing that increases opportunity is demand.

 

[maquiscat]

And from this article:

Public School vs. Private School | PublicSchoolReview.com

Didn't read the article, just have to make this comment about the part you quoted. Boarding schools are not comparable to private or public schools. The students live there thus they cost more since they also have to cover housing and meals and other facilities that day schools do not. Now if we did have public boarding schools, then we could do comparisons.

 

[minnie616]

And again - you want to focus on what is - while I am focused on what could be.

Nothing will change as long as all taxation follows the public school system and doesn't follow where the child wants to go. You seem incapable of imagining what could happen if all special needs children had their education dollars follow them. Imagine thousands and thousands of special needs children with $thousands of education dollars, looking for the best possible placement to serve their needs. You don't think schools that specialize in servicing those needs wouldn't pop up and expand almost overnight? They don't exist now or are prohibitively expensive because parents have to foot the entire bill themselves. If that wasn't the case, the parents would be lining up to get in and one thing that increases opportunity is demand.

You did not even comment on the fact that testing at Eaton Academy only revived a 3 out 10
When nearby public elementariness received a 6 and 8 out of 10

And no , I don't think so there will be schools for special needs popping up to take tax dollars.
Many private schools like not taking tax dollars and post that proudly.
I also don't think enough parents will have access to transportion to take them out of district.

 

[minnie616]

Didn't read the article, just have to make this comment about the part you quoted. Boarding schools are not comparable to private or public schools. The students live there thus they cost more since they also have to cover housing and meals and other facilities that day schools do not. Now if we did have public boarding schools, then we could do comparisons.

They mentioned boarding schools but that was not what the article was about.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

The problem then became when there is one school who can help my child better then the one whose district I am in, and another child in that school who would do better in my child's school. Neither of us parents can afford to move just to get into the district but can afford the transportation. So why should we be stuck in those schools? And I have yet to be in a school district where it was easy to get your child into a different school even if seats were available.

In my state, when seats are open, schools definitely are looking to attract them from other districts. Perhaps, the problem in your state is your public schools don't allow transfers. That is an issue that can be resolved with a better outcome than taking money away from those who attend public schools.

 

[maquiscat]

In my state, when seats are open, schools definitely are looking to attract them from other districts. Perhaps, the problem in your state is your public schools don't allow transfers. That is an issue that can be resolved with a better outcome than taking money away from those who attend public schools.

Why would the school with open seats be looking to fill them with students from other districts?

 

[VanceMack]

The union forces no one to pay dues, you choose to work at a represented workplace .

The cited article states that in fact that is precisely what is happening. Do you have some evidence to the contrary that refutes it or are you just spouting off because you support unions?

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

And again - you want to focus on what is - while I am focused on what could be.

Nothing will change as long as all taxation follows the public school system and doesn't follow where the child wants to go. You seem incapable of imagining what could happen if all special needs children had their education dollars follow them. Imagine thousands and thousands of special needs children with $thousands of education dollars, looking for the best possible placement to serve their needs. You don't think schools that specialize in servicing those needs wouldn't pop up and expand almost overnight? They don't exist now or are prohibitively expensive because parents have to foot the entire bill themselves. If that wasn't the case, the parents would be lining up to get in and one thing that increases opportunity is demand.

That is not how it works. Only schools that will follow federal/state mandates will see special education money. Most parents with special needs children want them mainstreamed with regular education children with appropriate laws in place to protect them and ensure they will get a free and appropriate education with their peers.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Why would the school with open seats be looking to fill them with students from other districts?

They get more money to cover the budget.

 

[CanadaJohn]

That is not how it works. Only schools that will follow federal/state mandates will see special education money. Most parents with special needs children want them mainstreamed with regular education children with appropriate laws in place to protect them and ensure they will get a free and appropriate education with their peers.

Never mind - you and Minnie are stuck in the current, as if there couldn't possibly be any other way to deliver education to our children. It's thinking like your's and Minnie's that keeps our education systems stagnating and being surpassed by others around the world while we keep throwing more and more money at the same broken schools.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Never mind - you and Minnie are stuck in the current, as if there couldn't possibly be any other way to deliver education to our children. It's thinking like your's and Minnie's that keeps our education systems stagnating and being surpassed by others around the world while we keep throwing more and more money at the same broken schools.

The problem is our poverty levels and if we use the PISA as a measure, no many other countries can do what we have done with the those students. Your method has been tried and has only led to more stratification.