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Conservative US top court justices skeptical over union fees

Re: Unions about to take another hit

if you want to work there, and enjoy the benefits, the wages, the greivance procedure that the union has negotiated, then yes, you should .....again, don't like working at a union shop, find another job in a non union workplace.

Now we have the freedom not to. If one wants to get a job somewhere but not join the union, that is their prerogative. Freedom of association. A union doesn't own the business and just because a union has set up shop in a business doesn't mean that other people shouldn't apply of they don't want to be part of the union.

Now Unions will have to compete, and if they truly provide a benefit then people will join. But if they're just taking money and running political games, then they may face dying out.
 
Re: Unions about to take another hit

if working in a union shop bothers you that much then don't work there, it really is that simple....the 'only place for miles' is a BS argument....if that were the case, THEN GO A LITTLE FURTHER DOWN THE ROAD. you do have the 'freedom' to choose, if you apply and get a job in a union shop, you made a CHOICE.

I don't mind working in a union setting. I just don't like working with the losers that are part of the union, that would be fired in a non-union job.
 
Re: Unions about to take another hit

no, not even close...the people in a union shop , with a DEMOCRATIC VOTE, voted to join a union, elect their bargaining committee, their shift stewards...

Yes, but it is possible that 49% did not want to join a union but were forced to anyway against their will, and if they opt out of paying union dues the union wants to plaster their name up for all to see, very similar to businesses that choose to not pay for "protection" being intimidated for not doing so.
 
Re: Unions about to take another hit

no, not even close...the people in a union shop , with a DEMOCRATIC VOTE, voted to join a union, elect their bargaining committee, their shift stewards...

In most cases this was done long ago, before anyone who currently works in the shop was even hired. The choice was only given to the founders of the union, the folks who come after not so much. Making MR's comment right on the money.
 
Re: Unions about to take another hit

if you want to work there, and enjoy the benefits, the wages, the greivance procedure that the union has negotiated, then yes, you should .....again, don't like working at a union shop, find another job in a non union workplace.

You keep parroting the same old line over and over. Oh well, you know your arguments are crap, hopefully the SCOTUS will too and the rest of us can watch your beloved mafia sink into obscurity.
 
Re: Unions about to take another hit

no, not even close...the people in a union shop , with a DEMOCRATIC VOTE, voted to join a union, elect their bargaining committee, their shift stewards...

It seems obvious to me that you are a proud union member. There are many good things to say about unions. Their apprentice programs are great, and their skills requirements usually lead to quality work. On the other hand, I've experienced organizing activity by unions in my business. The effort focuses on intimidation, threats, and gross misrepresentation. I'm sorry, but if you can't accept this as one factor in how unions organize, you're credibility is a bit suspect. If someone is not in support of voting for representation, they are marked people, and treated as such. I have had people come to my office frightened by their treatment, and concerned about their safety. That is not a DEMOCRATIC VOTE effort.
 
Re: Unions about to take another hit

And this one is going to hurt big time

Both Roberts and Kennedy appeared unsympathetic to the California Teachers Association's argument that non-members would become "free-riders" if not required to pay the fees to fund collective bargaining activities because they would benefit from collective bargaining without having to pay for it.

Kennedy said that non-members currently are "compelled riders" if they disagree with the union's stances on various issues. Roberts said the issue of "free-riders" was "insignificant."

The 10 teachers that filed the lawsuit in 2013 are asking the justices to overturn a 1977 Supreme Court ruling in the case Abood v. Detroit Board of Education that allowed public sector unions to collect fees from workers who do not want representation as long as the money is not spent on political activities.

Conservative US top court justices skeptical over union fees

Conservative US top court justices skeptical over union fees - AOL

the 1977 rule was bad from go....

this will allow those who want to forego joining a union the complete right NOT to pay any fees....

about damn time

I agree, no one should be forced to pay Union dues to a Union they do not belong to. That said, no one that is not in a Union should get the perks a Union may negotiate for and get unless the entity that is paying for the services should they do.
While I have no problem with people having the right to work as they wish I would also say that also includes belonging to a Union, and never forget when you are talking about public service Unions you are not only talking about teachers, but also police officers, firefighters and several other groups, without which society would be up a creek without a paddle.
 
Re: Unions about to take another hit

Is it your belief that a correct statement is decided by vote?
Thats silly

My statement applies to any situation where the company has an advantage over the worker. it is only the union of numbers that give the average worker power.
And that's false. Any employee with a skill has power. I know that because, unlike you, I actually own a small business and hire people.
 
Re: Unions about to take another hit

Thats silly

And that's false. Any employee with a skill has power. I know that because, unlike you, I actually own a small business and hire people.

exactly

and those with the best skills get the best wages

employers compete to hire them

and their wages are driven up...and up

the best sales people can write their own ticket practically

just as the NFL and MLB compete in free agency for the best players, employers compete for the best workers with skills

now if all you can do is work a fry machine, or run a cash register, you are going to be competing with thousands of others in your area

the more skills you have...the more power you have
 
Re: Unions about to take another hit

Thats silly

And that's false. Any employee with a skill has power. I know that because, unlike you, I actually own a small business and hire people.

Yes - thinking that the majority opinion can decide a matter of fact is indeed silly. And that is why I questioned your statement.

As to workers power - yes, if a worker has a special skill or talent that places him in a must have category , the worker can negotiate a good deal. However if a worker only same the same skills that far more people than jobs have - then they are at a disadvantage.

I find it revealing that even professional athletes like baseball, basketball and football players who do have those special skills also see a need for a union. So your argument has a little bit of merit in some cases - but generally my statement is still valid and true.
 
Re: Unions about to take another hit

Money taken by mandate is de facto tax money. The requirement to pay private sector insurance companies was ruled constitutional by declaring the penalty associated with not doing it to be a "taxing power." Money the government requires by rules be surrendered by people who don't want to engage in a trade is a de facto taxing power. Tax money is not allowed to be spent on politics. But other money that government requires one party surrender to another, can be? That's wrong. Money that law requires be taken from citizens is either a tax, or a tax by another name, and such money should not be able to be spent on politics.

First of all, you clearly don't understand what "fair share" means. No money provided by non-union fair share employees is used for political purposes. NONE! It is against the law. Fair share is money contributed for the services provided by the union "shared" by ALL non-management employees. The cost inherent in collective bargaining, union representation in labor disputes, grievance resolution, legal representation in wrongful termination actions, and protection from unfair disciplinary action. The fair share amount is between 60 - 70% of standard Union membership dues, the difference of 30 - 40% represents the portion unions are legally allowed to use for political purposes.

Bottom line? Fair share employees are NOT paying for Union political action.

At least it's their money, which they did not take by force from anyone. That's what differentiates private money spent on politics (which is legal) from tax/public money being used on politics (which isn't).

This B/S argument is based on your notion that Public Service employees are somehow "robbing taxpayers" of their hard earned money. That Public Service employees are not "real" employees because they don't produce anything and are stealing money from the producing public.

Well, if you think only "producers" are real employees I'd say you have just re-classified every service sector employee as robbing "real taxpayers" every time a barber cuts your hair, an accountant does your books or works on your taxes, a food service employee makes you a burger, or a sales person helps you in a store. They all provide services for people who can't, won't, or are too lazy to, do things for themselves.

Neither do truckers, warehouse workers, Airline workers, mail delivery services, farm hands, lawyers, doctors (unless dedicated to research), etc.

If you really want to pick nits, most factory workers don't produce anything either! They WORK for a factory owner who bought all the machines, materials, and buildings the employees work in and with.

So by your definition you've limited "REAL taxpayers" to the very people who are indoctrinating you into thinking YOU are one of THEM, the "Koch's and their ilk." They are just tickled to death that people are buying their crap, that Unions are the enemy of free enterprise.

And no reason given, whether erroneous or not, for its faltering in the private sector provides additional support for why unionism should exist in the public sector.

The link you seem to be missing is that WORKERS have the right to unionize against the caprices and depredations of employers. Public Sector employees ARE workers! They WORK to provide services the PUBLIC demands. Otherwise their jobs would not exist. Basic Economics 101: Supply and Demand, heard of it?

Trying to classify them as "the other," so you can say "they" are doing such and so to you, and "they" must be treated as somehow underserving of consideration because of imaginary differences is total B/S. Their jobs exist because the PEOPLE have demanded something, the POLITICIANS have acquiesced to these demands by creating the agencies; and the PEOPLE have to pay for those services via shared taxation.

The only difference between Public Service and Private Service? Private service is pay-as-you-go. Public Service is "pay-because-you go." And you go all the time.
 
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Re: Unions about to take another hit

I agree, no one should be forced to pay Union dues to a Union they do not belong to. That said, no one that is not in a Union should get the perks a Union may negotiate for and get unless the entity that is paying for the services should they do.
While I have no problem with people having the right to work as they wish I would also say that also includes belonging to a Union, and never forget when you are talking about public service Unions you are not only talking about teachers, but also police officers, firefighters and several other groups, without which society would be up a creek without a paddle.

Public service unions should not be allowed. If for no other reason than that the people public service unions give campaign contributions to are also the same people that oversee those same unions. That is a huge, breathtaking conflict of interest.
 
Re: Unions about to take another hit

Public service unions should not be allowed. If for no other reason than that the people public service unions give campaign contributions to are also the same people that oversee those same unions. That is a huge, breathtaking conflict of interest.

No different than when the Koch's et al contribute to politicians in order to get all the bennies they do once their hired guns are elected.

Still, I would agree with your position but by expanding it to prohibit ALL contributions from PACs, Super-PACs, etc., AND limit the maximum amount any single citizen can contribute to any one politician to a fixed figure regardless of personal wealth.

Let's say $100.00? ;)
 
Re: Unions about to take another hit

Yes - thinking that the majority opinion can decide a matter of fact is indeed silly. And that is why I questioned your statement.
Too bad I didn't claim it did. Try to focus on what is being said, not what you wish was said. Unions, in case you aren't aware, are formed by majority vote. That unions aren't being formed demonstrates that no one really wants them. That was my point.

As to workers power - yes, if a worker has a special skill or talent that places him in a must have category , the worker can negotiate a good deal. However if a worker only same the same skills that far more people than jobs have - then they are at a disadvantage.
Unskilled workers benefit unfairly from unionization because the union, with the aid of its political allies, are able to blackmail the business to pay workers more than their skills and education warrant. Just so you know, I have no objection to unions. They are every bit as much a part of capitalism as free enterprise. The problem with unions is that they have enlisted the state as their ally and , thus, thwart the market. In a free society, you would be free to unionize my shop and I would be free to fire the whole lot of you for doing so.
 
Re: Unions about to take another hit

Unskilled workers benefit unfairly from unionization because the union, with the aid of its political allies, are able to blackmail the business to pay workers more than their skills and education warrant. Just so you know, I have no objection to unions. They are every bit as much a part of capitalism as free enterprise. The problem with unions is that they have enlisted the state as their ally and , thus, thwart the market. In a free society, you would be free to unionize my shop and I would be free to fire the whole lot of you for doing so.

True, but did you ever wonder about the evolution of getting "the state as their ally?"

I know you know your history. Once upon a time, in a free society, big business could do exactly what you said. They even had the force of government behind them.

But firing the entire workforce simply turned the employees into rebels who, like many do, turned to armed and violent action. Occupying the factories or mines, threatening to destroy them if attacked, and fighting back. The bosses usually won, eventually. But as more and more employees fought back, more and more people became aware of the abuses of employers, and eventually the wheel turned and public opinion shifted the state from business enforcer to union supporter. :shrug:

It's funny, but as a Libertarian I find myself in the odd position of defending public sector and other forms of Unionization. I really believe in limited government, and would prefer a society guided by Enlightened (rather than Rapacious) Capitalism.

I guess facing social reality forces my support.
 
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Re: Unions about to take another hit

First of all, you clearly don't understand what "fair share" means. No money provided by non-union fair share employees is used for political purposes. NONE! It is against the law. Fair share is money contributed for the services provided by the union "shared" by ALL non-management employees. The cost inherent in collective bargaining, union representation in labor disputes, grievance resolution, legal representation in wrongful termination actions, and protection from unfair disciplinary action. The fair share amount is between 60 - 70% of standard Union membership dues, the difference of 30 - 40% represents the portion unions are legally allowed to use for political purposes.

Bottom line? Fair share employees are NOT paying for Union political action.



This B/S argument is based on your notion that Public Service employees are somehow "robbing taxpayers" of their hard earned money. That Public Service employees are not "real" employees because they don't produce anything and are stealing money from the producing public.

Well, if you think only "producers" are real employees I'd say you have just re-classified every service sector employee as robbing "real taxpayers" every time a barber cuts your hair, an accountant does your books or works on your taxes, a food service employee makes you a burger, or a sales person helps you in a store. They all provide services for people who can't, won't, or are too lazy to, do things for themselves.

Neither do truckers, warehouse workers, Airline workers, mail delivery services, farm hands, lawyers, doctors (unless dedicated to research), etc.

If you really want to pick nits, most factory workers don't produce anything either! They WORK for a factory owner who bought all the machines, materials, and buildings the employees work in and with.

So by your definition you've limited "REAL taxpayers" to the very people who are indoctrinating you into thinking YOU are one of THEM, the "Koch's and their ilk." They are just tickled to death that people are buying their crap, that Unions are the enemy of free enterprise.



The link you seem to be missing is that WORKERS have the right to unionize against the caprices and depredations of employers. Public Sector employees ARE workers! They WORK to provide services the PUBLIC demands. Otherwise their jobs would not exist. Basic Economics 101: Supply and Demand, heard of it?

Trying to classify them as "the other," so you can say "they" are doing such and so to you, and "they" must be treated as somehow underserving of consideration because of imaginary differences is total B/S. Their jobs exist because the PEOPLE have demanded something, the POLITICIANS have acquiesced to these demands by creating the agencies; and the PEOPLE have to pay for those services via shared taxation.

The only difference between Public Service and Private Service? Private service is pay-as-you-go. Public Service is "pay-because-you go." And you go all the time.

The whole thing is based on an anti-union agenda and these people expect to get this into the supreme court. They are taking down the labor unions in this country and by default the pension system: that's the goal. This is happening because labor is making headway in this country and the corps are scared of it.

Posters like Neomalthusian are not going to get any of it: they don't want to.

I remember about years ago, say 1984, when Ronald Reagan was having his fun, a business agent and I were talking about it, and he said; "You can whip a dog and whip a dog, and back him into a corner and keep whipping him, but pretty soon - he's gonna lunge at you...

That's what happened in the 30s, remember; those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
 
Re: Unions about to take another hit

The whole thing is based on an anti-union agenda and these people expect to get this into the supreme court. They are taking down the labor unions in this country and by default the pension system: that's the goal. This is happening because labor is making headway in this country and the corps are scared of it.

Posters like Neomalthusian are not going to get any of it: they don't want to.

I remember about years ago, say 1984, when Ronald Reagan was having his fun, a business agent and I were talking about it, and he said; "You can whip a dog and whip a dog, and back him into a corner and keep whipping him, but pretty soon - he's gonna lunge at you...

That's what happened in the 30s, remember; those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Pensions are on their way out no matter what

Numbers require it

Whether it be private or public, you cant have someone work 30-35 years, retire at 50-55, and still live another 35-40 years

There just isn't enough money to cover it all

Legacy costs are killing half of the cities in this country....

And if the Feds hadn't changed their system, we would already be broke

The last companies will be stopping them soon....changing them over to 401k's.....

Blame the human condition....we are living longer....the actuarial accountants never expected life spans to extend this far, this fast

And math doesn't lie.....
 
Re: Unions about to take another hit

It's funny, but as a Libertarian I find myself in the odd position of defending public sector and other forms of Unionization. I really believe in limited government, and would prefer a society guided by Enlightened (rather than Rapacious) Capitalism.

I guess facing social reality forces my support.

It's not so much at odds to support the collective will of employees. Part of it depends on your experience in such matters. From my perspective, I see unions as a great thing from the past, that just isn't what it used to be. The unions i have seen surrounding Highj Tech are far from the unions of the past, and destructive. I'm sure there are some good ones around.
 
Re: Unions about to take another hit

Pensions are on their way out no matter what

Numbers require it

Whether it be private or public, you cant have someone work 30-35 years, retire at 50-55, and still live another 35-40 years

There just isn't enough money to cover it all

Legacy costs are killing half of the cities in this country....

And if the Feds hadn't changed their system, we would already be broke

The last companies will be stopping them soon....changing them over to 401k's.....

Blame the human condition....we are living longer....the actuarial accountants never expected life spans to extend this far, this fast

And math doesn't lie.....

Yet the voters keep electing the same politicians who allowed this. The faults are multiple, and in this case, the voters are destroying their children's future.
 
Re: Unions about to take another hit

Too bad I didn't claim it did.

Here is where you invoked the majority assume sort of proof for unions being bad in your post 60

If unions are the 'only hope' why is it that you, and not 90+% of the American workforce think that?

So you clearly did. What you did is called invoking the fallacy of Argumentum ad Populum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."

This type of argument is known by several names,[1] including appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, appeal to democracy, appeal to popularity, argument by consensus, consensus fallacy, authority of the many, and bandwagon fallacy (also known as a vox populi),[2] and in Latin as argumentum ad numerum ("appeal to the number"), and consensus gentium ("agreement of the clans"). It is also the basis of a number of social phenomena, including communal reinforcement and the bandwagon effect. The Chinese proverb "three men make a tiger" concerns the same idea.

and then you compound your error by the following


Unskilled workers benefit unfairly from unionization because the union, with the aid of its political allies, are able to blackmail the business to pay workers more than their skills and education warrant.

Hyperbolic over the top exaggeration like BLACKMAIL dooms your post - your viewpoint - and your argument.
 
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Re: Unions about to take another hit

No different than when the Koch's et al contribute to politicians in order to get all the bennies they do once their hired guns are elected.

Still, I would agree with your position but by expanding it to prohibit ALL contributions from PACs, Super-PACs, etc., AND limit the maximum amount any single citizen can contribute to any one politician to a fixed figure regardless of personal wealth.

Let's say $100.00? ;)

That works for me.

Honestly though the situation of a union's political contributions smells different to me than that of a plain old rich guy campaign contributor. I'm not sure - especially at 6am - if I can say exactly why.

Side note - our Congressman, Steve Israel, who is leaving the House did an op-ed piece in the Times about political fundraising. His opening sentence was along the lines of "If I call you it's safe to pick up the phone because I won't be hitting you up for money." He went on to say that on day 1 as a new Congressman the first they were told was not some uplifting tale of the great things that had happened in Congress but rather "if you don't raise 10K a week you won't be coming back."
 
Re: Unions about to take another hit

This case deals with a public sector union and public sector unions make no sense.

Neither does compelled membership. Unions don't have to represent all employees. Yes I know there may be laws that say they do but those laws should be rescinded. People should have the right to negotiate their own LOWER compensation package or choose collective bargaining if the see value in it. The union should earn it's membership does by proving it can do better for the worker than the worker can on his own.
there, fixed it for you.
 
Re: Unions about to take another hit

The point that every public service work is a taxpayer yes... but in order for them to pay taxes first taxes have to be taken from other people in order to pay them in the first place. They are not producers. We allow for public service workers as a necessity. But there are limits. I use to have to make deliveries to a state government office that handled sec licenses for insurance agents and one lady that worked there .. yes a government employee.. put it this way. she said ' government jobs are for people who couldn't make it in the private sector ' pretty telling as she was saying that about herself. No I am sure some of those people could in fact make it in the private sector but the point is still valid to a degree.

one, this conversation never happened, well it did in your imagination, but not real life.

two, it's an opinion (that you invented and didn't hear from a state worker, refer to one), and a relatively uneducated one at that.
 
Re: Unions about to take another hit

I couldn't agree more. Eventually, America's absurd, unfettered love of neoliberalism (fiscal conservativism and "trickdown" voodoo economics) will catch up with it. After we let a bunch of business-school educated managers and bean-counters slowly rot out all of American infrastructure and institutions until all of their raw wealth has been extracted and converted into money for rich people, the US crumbles into nothingness. Once the last university is converted into the worst form of education system possible, after the last successful business produces only produces the most cheapest, crappiest, former shadow-of-itself product will their goals be completed.

It's amazing how most American recognize the problem, but refuse to do anything about it and instead listen to morons like Donald Trump or Fox News.

Donald Trump will be a boon for unions, the two things being used to undercut labor is illegal immigration and permitting of China to undervalue their currency, Trump pledges to fix both, in detailed policy prescriptions. I don't see how Trump will be bad for unions. I'm sure most of the labor used in his real estate and construction projects are union also.
 
Re: Unions about to take another hit

Pensions are on their way out no matter what

Numbers require it

Whether it be private or public, you cant have someone work 30-35 years, retire at 50-55, and still live another 35-40 years

There just isn't enough money to cover it all

Legacy costs are killing half of the cities in this country....

And if the Feds hadn't changed their system, we would already be broke

The last companies will be stopping them soon....changing them over to 401k's.....

Blame the human condition....we are living longer....the actuarial accountants never expected life spans to extend this far, this fast

And math doesn't lie.....

Agreed, for the most part. The post office pension fund it a joke. Ditto many others.
 
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