Conservative US top court justices skeptical over union fees

[ttwtt78640]

Re: Unions about to take another hit

what I said stands....we are talking about a workplace....if that workplace is unionized, and my union brothers and sisters are expected to represent you, and you are going to get the same benefits , the same pay, you can at least pay the portion of your dues that cover the collective bargaining process...wanna opt out of the portion that is used in politics? fine....

That is pure BS - you do not have to get the **** out and find another job simply because 51% want a union that you would rather not pay for or participate in. That is what right to work laws are all about - your right not to have to pay union dues.

Who gets to define what portion of dues are used for politics? Are only direct gifts to campaign funds counted but not union bosses salaries who make political endorsements, lobbying costs or costs of hanging posters on walls to urge harassment of non-members? How about if I get personal union representation by filing a grievance then I must pay for only that?

A union does not have the power to tax - it is as simple as that.

 

[SocialD]

Re: Unions about to take another hit

Public service unions are not "organizing against taxpayers and ratepayers." They are organizing against the caprices of bought-and-paid-for politicians, and their transient policies enforced by their transient political appointees.

Or did you forget that every public service worker is ALSO a taxpayer??? There is no quid-pro-quo between government agencies when it comes to services provided. If you work in the unemployment dept. and go to the DMV, you don't get any special treatment. If you are a teacher and need a police officer, they don't respond any faster than they would for anyone else. They also pay the same tax rates as everyone else.

Public service employees also contribute to their pension funds like any other employee who has a pension fund. State governments abuse those funds, misusing them to pay for projects when taxes are insufficient. How would you like it if a private employer misused your pension funds?

Your animosity amazes me. Just how have you been hurt by public service unions?

The point that every public service work is a taxpayer yes... but in order for them to pay taxes first taxes have to be taken from other people in order to pay them in the first place. They are not producers. We allow for public service workers as a necessity. But there are limits. I use to have to make deliveries to a state government office that handled sec licenses for insurance agents and one lady that worked there .. yes a government employee.. put it this way. she said ' government jobs are for people who couldn't make it in the private sector ' pretty telling as she was saying that about herself. No I am sure some of those people could in fact make it in the private sector but the point is still valid to a degree.

 

[randel]

Re: Unions about to take another hit

That is pure BS - you do not have to get the **** out and find another job simply because 51% want a union that you would rather not pay for or participate in. That is what right to work laws are all about - your right not to have to pay union dues.

Who gets to define what portion of dues are used for politics? Are only direct gifts to campaign funds counted but not union bosses salaries who make political endorsements, lobbying costs or costs of hanging posters on walls to urge harassment of non-members? How about if I get personal union representation by filing a grievance then I must pay for only that?

A union does not have the power to tax - it is as simple as that.

you are not forced to work in a unionized shop, you have made a choice to work in a unionized shop, in order to obtain the pay and benefits that union has negotiated...let us not BS that this is not the case.... unions are heavily regulated by the federal government, and i would imagine have to follow strict guidelines as to what is considered 'political activity'...i know for a fact every penny has to be accounted for...want the pay and benefits? PAY YOUR DUES.....don't want to work in a union shop? DON'T APPLY..find work elsewhere in a non unionized enviorment....simple as....no one is "forced" to be union, everyone makes a choice, don't pretend that it isnt so.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Re: Unions about to take another hit

you are not forced to work in a unionized shop, you have made a choice to work in a unionized shop, in order to obtain the pay and benefits that union has negotiated...let us not BS that this is not the case.... unions are heavily regulated by the federal government, and i would imagine have to follow strict guidelines as to what is considered 'political activity'...i know for a fact every penny has to be accounted for...want the pay and benefits? PAY YOUR DUES.....don't want to work in a union shop? DON'T APPLY..find work elsewhere in a non unionized enviorment....simple as....no one is "forced" to be union, everyone makes a choice, don't pretend that it isnt so.

And if the unions get their wishes, and make 100% of the jobs unionized, where are we suppose to work?

 

[randel]

Re: Unions about to take another hit

And if the unions get their wishes, and make 100% of the jobs unionized, where are we suppose to work?

hmmm... 100% unionized....boy does that sound good..good wages, good benefits, a grievance procedeure...why wouldnt you want 100% unionization?

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Unions about to take another hit

you are not forced to work in a unionized shop, you have made a choice to work in a unionized shop, in order to obtain the pay and benefits that union has negotiated...let us not BS that this is not the case.... unions are heavily regulated by the federal government, and i would imagine have to follow strict guidelines as to what is considered 'political activity'...i know for a fact every penny has to be accounted for...want the pay and benefits? PAY YOUR DUES.....don't want to work in a union shop? DON'T APPLY..find work elsewhere in a non unionized enviorment....simple as....no one is "forced" to be union, everyone makes a choice, don't pretend that it isnt so.

why should it be illegal for a private sector employer to fire those trying to unionize? I would support a change in the law =

if the union has merit, the employer won't be able to find enough workers to fill his needs and will have to bargain with the union. On the other hand, unions shouldn't have any protections beyond what they can achieve through the withholding of labor.


Public service unions are problematic in the sense that the bargaining with them is not at arms length. When my late father bargained with the union, my father was fairly representing the interests of management and the owners, while the union was fairly representing the interests of the rank and file. Ultimately, after my father died, the new CEO, decided to move most of the operations to right to work states and overseas-something my father had opposed as much as possible while he was alive. Now all that is left of this company in Cincinnati (that dates back to the 1840s) is a bunch of white collar types who direct where stuff made in other states and other countries will go. The unions priced themselves out of a job but I will note that in hard times (under Carter for example) the union was smart enough to make concessions since they knew my father was straight with them

but in a public sector union, us taxpayers are "represented" by politicians who may well be dependent on that same union for votes

and we don't get fair representation from the "management".

as I noted, I have mixed feelings about workers not paying for the benefits of representation that often mitigate or minimize sometimes harsh or unfair discipline. but since I don't believe in public sector unions, its not as big an issue to me

 

[clownboy]

Re: Unions about to take another hit

The only that that gives the average worker power is to unite with other workers. By themselves, they are at a serious and extreme disadvantage in putting themselves against a large company.

A union is their only hope.

Once again, the average worker isn't working for a large company.

 

[randel]

Re: Unions about to take another hit

Once again, the average worker isn't working for a large company.

same principle...large or small company

 

[Lord of Planar]

Re: Unions about to take another hit

hmmm... 100% unionized....boy does that sound good..good wages, good benefits, a grievance procedeure...why wouldnt you want 100% unionization?

Because unions are not good for fields that use science and a persons ability. The best people get paid the same as the worse people in the same job. The protections of the unions keep people from acceling. The unions are why we have among the lowest educated children among first world nations, because the teachers are protected, and get lazy in teaching practices.

Nobody is "entitled" to job protection. We need a weeding process.

 

[randel]

Re: Unions about to take another hit

Because unions are not good for fields that use science and a persons ability. The best people get paid the same as the worse people in the same job. The protections of the unions keep people from acceling. The unions are why we have among the lowest educated children among first world nations, because the teachers are protected, and get lazy in teaching practices.

Nobody is "entitled" to job protection. We need a weeding process.

alot of opinion, little fact here....

 

[Lord of Planar]

Re: Unions about to take another hit

Once again, the average worker isn't working for a large company.

That's just it. The companies I worked for that were non union payed better and had better benefits so they could attract the best workers. Lazy union types didn't cut the mustard. These companies no longer exist with the globalized free trade agreements, because it is now cheaper to move operations overseas. Unionizing more workplaces will simply make more operations more desirable overseas. What we need is to disassemble these free trade agreements, place tariffs, and tax producers less.

Unions are fine for laborers. Just not any job that needs to be competitive in the mental aspects of work.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Re: Unions about to take another hit

alot of opinion, little fact here....

Like you have any facts?

LOL...

Better wages...

LOL...

Not in high tech jobs.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Re: Unions about to take another hit

you are not forced to work in a unionized shop, you have made a choice to work in a unionized shop, in order to obtain the pay and benefits that union has negotiated...let us not BS that this is not the case.... unions are heavily regulated by the federal government, and i would imagine have to follow strict guidelines as to what is considered 'political activity'...i know for a fact every penny has to be accounted for...want the pay and benefits? PAY YOUR DUES.....don't want to work in a union shop? DON'T APPLY..find work elsewhere in a non unionized enviorment....simple as....no one is "forced" to be union, everyone makes a choice, don't pretend that it isnt so.

I live in a right to work state and that is a fact. Your imagination does not apply to me.

 

[haymarket]

Re: Unions about to take another hit

If unions are the 'only hope' why is it that you, and not 90+% of the American workforce think that? The fact is, unions are unnecessary and unwanted--except by people who still think its the 1930's and still view America as some Dickensian nightmare

Is it your belief that a correct statement is decided by vote?

 

[haymarket]

Re: Unions about to take another hit

Once again, the average worker isn't working for a large company.

My statement applies to any situation where the company has an advantage over the worker. it is only the union of numbers that give the average worker power.

 

[ludin]

Re: Unions about to take another hit

I'm completely fine with that with the proviso that the company and employee can agree to whatever terms they like. I'm relatively sure that if the union has any worth they'll get a better deal for their members than individuals can get on their own.

if this was the cased you would see more car makers unionized. the UAW can't get into Toyota, Honda etc ... why?
because the company already gives better benefits than what the UAW can promise which their promises are
empty.

Really good employee's could do better than the union could. they will also get promoted and possibly earn more money
by being a better asset.

of course this will make the union mad and they will want the same increases, but that won't be very possible.

 

[ludin]

Re: Unions about to take another hit

Normally these cases wouldn't get traction but in this case it is and here is the main reason.

These 10 teachers have opted out of paying for political activities which by the way would have cost them 350 more.
even though they are paying union dues of 650 a year because they opted out of the other
they get no voice or vote when it comes to union activities.

their argument is that this violates their 1st amendment rights and it does.
frankly they have a case.

I don't think this is going to bode well for the union.

of course the teachers union doesn't really care as long as they are grabbing money from taxpayers and holding
students hostage.

 

[gdgyva]

Re: Unions about to take another hit

don't want to work in a union shop, don't apply there, simple as.....if you want the wages and benefits, and protections that the union has negotiated, pay up....don't want your dues going to pay for political activities? there are laws that allow you to opt out of that portion....nothing is free...you don't get to go into a fitness facility, and enjoy the equipment, or programs they offer, without being a member...you don't get your groceries, or gas for your vehicle for free...bottom line, you should not get the benefits the union has negotiated, or the pay, or the representation, without paying your dues.

the "union" shop may be the only place to work for miles

so again....i can only work there if i join the gang?

no thanks....

i can negotiate my own wages, benefits, and terms

and the 9 justices when they overturn this law, should allow just that

if i dont want to join your gang, i should be able to negotiate my own stuff

if i get better than the union...oh well

if i get worse, that's on ME

but i should have the FREEDOM to choose.....

 

[Moderate Right]

Re: Unions about to take another hit

After reading through this thread I realized that unions are somewhat similar to organized crime syndicates in neighborhoods where they would demand money from businesses in order to "protect" them. If the business does not pay it's dues for "protection" then their store can be broken into and robbed by some mysterious bad guys.

 

[randel]

Re: Unions about to take another hit

the "union" shop may be the only place to work for miles

so again....i can only work there if i join the gang?

no thanks....

i can negotiate my own wages, benefits, and terms

and the 9 justices when they overturn this law, should allow just that

if i dont want to join your gang, i should be able to negotiate my own stuff

if i get better than the union...oh well

if i get worse, that's on ME

but i should have the FREEDOM to choose.....

if working in a union shop bothers you that much then don't work there, it really is that simple....the 'only place for miles' is a BS argument....if that were the case, THEN GO A LITTLE FURTHER DOWN THE ROAD. you do have the 'freedom' to choose, if you apply and get a job in a union shop, you made a CHOICE.

 

[randel]

Re: Unions about to take another hit

After reading through this thread I realized that unions are somewhat similar to organized crime syndicates in neighborhoods where they would demand money from businesses in order to "protect" them. If the business does not pay it's dues for "protection" then their store can be broken into and robbed by some mysterious bad guys.

no, not even close...the people in a union shop , with a DEMOCRATIC VOTE, voted to join a union, elect their bargaining committee, their shift stewards...

 

[gdgyva]

Re: Unions about to take another hit

no, not even close...the people in a union shop , with a DEMOCRATIC VOTE, voted to join a union, elect their bargaining committee, their shift stewards...

only not everyone wants to play by those rules

and shouldnt have to in a "free society"

i am sorry that unions have nothing to offer their constituents at this point, so they have to rely on CLOSED shops to keep dues coming in

maybe you guys should see the writing on the walls, and actually change your game

and SELL your services so people WANT to join

lower your dues, and offer more than what you are giving

but then the political power goes away doesnt it....and the bosses wont like that part

 

[randel]

Re: Unions about to take another hit

only not everyone wants to play by those rules

and shouldnt have to in a "free society"

i am sorry that unions have nothing to offer their constituents at this point, so they have to rely on CLOSED shops to keep dues coming in

maybe you guys should see the writing on the walls, and actually change your game

and SELL your services so people WANT to join

lower your dues, and offer more than what you are giving

but then the political power goes away doesnt it....and the bosses wont like that part

if you want to work there, and enjoy the benefits, the wages, the greivance procedure that the union has negotiated, then yes, you should .....again, don't like working at a union shop, find another job in a non union workplace.

 

[gdgyva]

Re: Unions about to take another hit

if you want to work there, and enjoy the benefits, the wages, the greivance procedure that the union has negotiated, then yes, you should .....again, don't like working at a union shop, find another job in a non union workplace.

you are losing this battle....and you know it

the tides have turned

the unions are still acting as if it was 1920...not almost 2020

the supreme court is going to overturn the 1977 ruling....and then you wont even be able to collect dues from those who dont want to be members

and fewer and fewer people will be part of the unions until they are a shell of what they once were

and why?

because they cant or wont change....

because they still want to behave like thugs

because they havent figured out a way to adapt to the 21st century

blame it on your leaders....and blame it on the guys who keep preaching the same crap from 60 & 70 years ago

adapt or die.....two options

 

[Ikari]

Re: Unions about to take another hit

no, not even close...the people in a union shop , with a DEMOCRATIC VOTE, voted to join a union, elect their bargaining committee, their shift stewards...

And now, not everyone is forced to join their little club. That's all.