Biblically, life begins at birth

[Fletch]

I'm not ignoring everything. And I've seen it. Both at birth and at death.

Breath of life.

Abortion is not murder.

A child in the womb is not breathing, yet it is alive. So 'breath of life' is not accurate.

 

[mac]

Sure it does. It described the point where (human) life began as God breathing the breath of life into Adam's nostrils.

Well, since we aren't discussing aborting life, but rather aborting an individual life, then claiming that the bible states the starting point of life to be at Adam's first breath is simply irrelevant.

If the Bible means nothing to me as you claim, then why would I post so much about it?

I would have to make an assumption here...

 

[mac]

I'm not ignoring everything. And I've seen it. Both at birth and at death.

Breath of life.

To claim that a human fetus is not alive before it takes it's first breath of air is quite simply your politics getting in the way of your common sense and logic.

Abortion is not murder.

I didn't claim it was. It's legal.

 

[Jredbaron96]

Entity | Define Entity at Dictionary.com



Yes it is. Just like you are the same entity that burst through your mother's. I imagine you look somewhat different now, though.

I think you and I are using entity in different concepts...

 

[mac]

I think you and I are using entity in different concepts...

What "concept" are you using it in? I'm using it as a word in how its defined.

 

[Jredbaron96]

What "concept" are you using it in? I'm using it as a word in how its defined.

Your using the word entity as if it has value.

A tree is an entity. A turtle is an entity.

Dammit mac, why are you not out there protecting the turtles!?

 

[mac]

Your using the word entity as if it has value.

A tree is an entity. A turtle is an entity.

Dammit mac, why are you not out there protecting the turtles!?

no, i used entity because it is an entity. it has "value" because that entity is human.

p.s.....we do protect the turtles...

 

[Jredbaron96]

p.s.....we do protect the turtles...

Never mind, misread.

 

[hazlnut]

A child in the womb is not breathing, yet it is alive. So 'breath of life' is not accurate.

Just going by what is says in the bible.

Yes, the body is 'alive' but without a soul.

First breath. Breath of Life.

 

[mac]

Just going by what is says in the bible.

Yes, the body is 'alive' but without a soul.

First breath. Breath of Life.

That's absolutely incorrect. The soul enters the body in the womb, according to the bible.

 

[Thunder]

That's absolutely incorrect. The soul enters the body in the womb, according to the bible.

evidence please.

 

[Panache]

A child in the womb is not breathing, yet it is alive. So 'breath of life' is not accurate.

"Breath of life" is what it says in the Bible. Every major translation I know of uses it.

New International Version (©1984)
the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
New Living Translation (©2007)
Then the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life into the man's nostrils, and the man became a living person.

English Standard Version (©2001)
then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Then the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the earth and blew the breath of life into his nostrils. The man became a living being.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

American King James Version
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

American Standard Version
And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

Darby Bible Translation
And Jehovah Elohim formed Man, dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and Man became a living soul.

English Revised Version
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Webster's Bible Translation
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

World English Bible
Yahweh God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Young's Literal Translation
And Jehovah God formeth the man -- dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature.

Obviously "breath of life" is accurate according to the Bible. If you want a non-biblical discussion of abortion, I believe there is a forum for that.

 

[Panache]

Well, since we aren't discussing aborting life, but rather aborting an individual life, then claiming that the bible states the starting point of life to be at Adam's first breath is simply irrelevant.



I would have to make an assumption here...

Adam was alive because he received the "Breath of life." a fetus does not possess the "Breath of life." The connection is not a difficult one to make.

What assumption would you make as to why I would create a thread about a book that you claim means nothing to me?

 

[Panache]

evidence please.

I believe he is referring to Ecclesiastes 11:5 which in some translations says this:

"As you do not know the way the spirit comes to the bones in the womb[a] of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything."

Of course, this verse says that the spirit comes to the bones, so the Spirit must come after the bones are already formed, which is post-conception, but pre-birth.

Of course if you read the footnote:

"Ecclesiastes 11:5 Some Hebrew manuscripts, Targum; most Hebrew manuscripts As you do not know the way of the wind, or how the bones grow in the womb"

Most Hebrew manuscripts indicate that it was talking about bones growing in the womb, not ensoulment.

 

[mac]

I believe he is referring to Ecclesiastes 11:5 which in some translations says this:

"As you do not know the way the spirit comes to the bones in the womb[a] of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything."

Of course, this verse says that the spirit comes to the bones, so the Spirit must come after the bones are already formed, which is post-conception, but pre-birth.

Of course if you read the footnote:

"Ecclesiastes 11:5 Some Hebrew manuscripts, Targum; most Hebrew manuscripts As you do not know the way of the wind, or how the bones grow in the womb"

Most Hebrew manuscripts indicate that it was talking about bones growing in the womb, not ensoulment.

Psalm 139, Romans 9:10-12, Jeremiah 1:5, for example.

 

[mac]

Adam was alive because he received the "Breath of life." a fetus does not possess the "Breath of life." The connection is not a difficult one to make.

What assumption would you make as to why I would create a thread about a book that you claim means nothing to me?

Adam was created from dust, you and I were not.

My assumption would be that you are attempting to undermine the belief that life begins at conception. With an underlying subtext of ridiculing Christians. :shrug:

 

[Panache]

Adam was created from dust, you and I were not.

My assumption would be that you are attempting to undermine the belief that life begins at conception. With an underlying subtext of ridiculing Christians. :shrug:

So you think Genesis 3:19 is just talking about Adam returning to dust, since from dust he came, and really has no bearing on those of us who weren't made from dust? Shall we all return to the womb then, since it is from the womb we came?

Even if your assumption were correct, the Bible would still mean something to me. It just wouldn't mean the same thing to me as it does to you.

 

[Fletch]

So you think Genesis 3:19 is just talking about Adam returning to dust, since from dust he came, and really has no bearing on those of us who weren't made from dust? Shall we all return to the womb then, since it is from the womb we came?

No. The life of Adam would end the way all human life ends, but his life began as no other life after him began. Adam was not born. He did not emerge from a womb, he was formed from the dust of the ground. He was formed the way we might form a man out of clay, or chisel him out of rock, or roll him out of snow. Breath of Life applies to Adam, not to you and me.

 

[Panache]

Psalm 139, Romans 9:10-12, Jeremiah 1:5, for example.

Psalm 139 seems to talk about the unfathomable wonder of how God wove the human body together in secret in the depths of the Earth, which we all know is where babies come from. It doesn't really have anything to say on the subject of ensoulment.

Romans 9:10-12 talks about how the Fate of Issac's sons had already been decided by God according to arbitrary election before they were born, rather than according to the choices that either son might make. It is essentially an argument against the existence of free will, and really says nothing about conception or ensoulment either.

As for Jer 1:5, it says not only that God knew him before he was born, but before he was even conceived. BEFORE he was formed in the womb. This in no way implies that life begins at conception, since Jer was known to God BEFORE that point. If you want to make a case against abortion using Jer 1:5 than the same case can be made against abstinence from sex. Since God knew Jer before he was conceived, for Hilkiah not to have had sex would have been murder.

Is the moral of the story that not putting out to your prom date destroys a precious human life?

 

[Panache]

No. The life of Adam would end the way all human life ends, but his life began as no other life after him began. Adam was not born. He did not emerge from a womb, he was formed from the dust of the ground. He was formed the way we might form a man out of clay, or chisel him out of rock, or roll him out of snow. Breath of Life applies to Adam, not to you and me.

Then why did breath of life apply to all the pairs of animals that went in the Ark with Noah, Gen 7:15. Why did it apply to Job?

 

[Fletch]

Then why did breath of life apply to all the pairs of animals that went in the Ark with Noah, Gen 7:15. Why did it apply to Job?

The Breath of Life refers to Gods breath. God breaths into a thing and it comes to life. There is nothing to say that God cannot breath the breath of life into a child in the womb.

 

[mac]

Psalm 139 seems to talk about the unfathomable wonder of how God wove the human body together in secret in the depths of the Earth, which we all know is where babies come from. It doesn't really have anything to say on the subject of ensoulment.

You knit me together in my mothers womb....there is no "me" in a lifeless lump of cells.

Romans 9:10-12 talks about how the Fate of Issac's sons had already been decided by God according to arbitrary election before they were born, rather than according to the choices that either son might make. It is essentially an argument against the existence of free will, and really says nothing about conception or ensoulment either.

Speaks of Rebekah's sons being known in the womb. One does not know lifeless objects.

As for Jer 1:5, it says not only that God knew him before he was born, but before he was even conceived. BEFORE he was formed in the womb. This in no way implies that life begins at conception, since Jer was known to God BEFORE that point. If you want to make a case against abortion using Jer 1:5 than the same case can be made against abstinence from sex. Since God knew Jer before he was conceived, for Hilkiah not to have had sex would have been murder.

One doesn't know inanimate objects. It doesn't say "before you were conceived" it says "before I formed you in the womb".

Is the moral of the story that not putting out to your prom date destroys a precious human life?

No, the moral of the story is that we are known by God in the womb. There is nothing to know if we are lifeless, soulless objects.

 

[Panache]

The Breath of Life refers to Gods breath. God breaths into a thing and it comes to life. There is nothing to say that God cannot breath the breath of life into a child in the womb.

So animals have possesion of God's breath?

 

[Panache]

You knit me together in my mothers womb....there is no "me" in a lifeless lump of cells.



Speaks of Rebekah's sons being known in the womb. One does not know lifeless objects.



One doesn't know inanimate objects. It doesn't say "before you were conceived" it says "before I formed you in the womb".



No, the moral of the story is that we are known by God in the womb. There is nothing to know if we are lifeless, soulless objects.

There is no "you" in a lifeless bunch of dust. Yet the Bible says that Adam came from dust and will return to it. Gen 3:19. Does that mean that everyone else goes to heaven or hell when they die, but Adam will return to dust instead? I think not. The verse refers to the body coming from dust and returning to dust, not the spirit. In the same way it uses the word "me" to refer to the body being knit together in the womb, not the spirit.

At what point in time do you believe God formed Jeremiah in the womb? If conception, then God knew him before conception. If after conception, that is proof that the formation of the soul is a post conception event.

 

[mac]

There is no "you" in a lifeless bunch of dust. Yet the Bible says that Adam came from dust and will return to it. Gen 3:19. Does that mean that everyone else goes to heaven or hell when they die, but Adam will return to dust instead? I think not. The verse refers to the body coming from dust and returning to dust, not the spirit. In the same way it uses the word "me" to refer to the body being knit together in the womb, not the spirit.

At what point in time do you believe God formed Jeremiah in the womb? If conception, then God knew him before conception. If after conception, that is proof that the formation of the soul is a post conception event.

it would appear from that passage that the soul is formed prior to entering the body and that it enters the body post conception.