Are gay people born that way or is it a choice?

[Engimo]

There are studies also defending a case for a religious faith.

No, there aren't. At least, none that I've seen. I'd like to see some statistics that say that religious people are less likely to have mental problems, be criminals, or something. Show a correlation, please.

And you will find studies re damaging effects on attempts to change a person's sexual orientation are conducted mostly by people or groupswho are opposed to any such attempt on any basis at all, thus you will find a broad segment of society who view such studies as suspect.

Actually, no. A study published in the academic journal Professional Psychology showed the psychological harm and ineffectiveness of these treatments. If my university's website were loading properly, I'd paste the contents of the paper, but it's not.

I don't deny that there are harmful methods of dealing with just about any human condition you can name. I myself was a physically and psychologically abused child. I know exactly what it feels like and what it does to a person. My point is, don't let ideology or prejudices or experience of isolated cases get in the way of real, useful, positive, and beneficial research and new innovations.

I agree, ideology should not stand in the way of progress. The thing is, even if I supported the de-homosexualization of children, the current methods simply don't work. They have a 4% success rate in just helping to sway someone's sexual orientation - that's pretty bad.

 

[AlbqOwl]

No, there aren't. At least, none that I've seen. I'd like to see some statistics that say that religious people are less likely to have mental problems, be criminals, or something. Show a correlation, please.



Actually, no. A study published in the academic journal Professional Psychology showed the psychological harm and ineffectiveness of these treatments. If my university's website were loading properly, I'd paste the contents of the paper, but it's not.



I agree, ideology should not stand in the way of progress. The thing is, even if I supported the de-homosexualization of children, the current methods simply don't work. They have a 4% success rate in just helping to sway someone's sexual orientation - that's pretty bad.

I don't need to show a correlation. You can Google up this stuff yourself as can I google up a dozen studies on the issues you raise. Googling up the study will not demonstrate the prejudices of the researchers no matter what their credentials posting such studies will just clutter up the thread.

However ineffective and/or harmful the current methods are, even a 4% success rate should suggest that research should be continued. In early attempts to combat malaria, treatment for rabies, diabetes, and many other medical issues and biological anomalies, the success rate was zero. When they got to 4% they thought that pretty good and it spurred them on to find better and better methods of treatment. You don't quit just because you don't succeed at first or because it is difficult.

I will say I don't support people being used for research without their consent.

 

[Engimo]

I don't need to show a correlation. You can Google up this stuff yourself as can I google up a dozen studies on the issues you raise. Googling up the study will not demonstrate the prejudices of the researchers no matter what their credentials posting such studies will just clutter up the thread.

So PM me, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a correlation between these things.

However ineffective and/or harmful the current methods are, even a 4% success rate should suggest that research should be continued. In early attempts to combat malaria, treatment for rabies, diabetes, and many other medical issues and biological anomalies, the success rate was zero. When they got to 4% they thought that pretty good and it spurred them on to find better and better methods of treatment. You don't quit just because you don't succeed at first or because it is difficult.

I will say I don't support people being used for research without their consent.

We're not talking about clinical studies or medical testing - we're talking about parents that send their children away to camps to have behavioral modification performed on them in order to cure them of their homosexuality. There is nothing scientific about it, and it is barbaric in many instances. Read about it here, a bit.

Techniques have included controversial therapies such as electroconvulsive therapy and aversion therapy (such as showing subjects homoerotic material whilst inducing nausea and vomiting through drugs).

 

[AlbqOwl]

So why aren't the clinics being outlawed if they are using inappropriate techniques? That's where you start. You don't start with the government telling parents how to raise their kids.

 

[saffron]

I am not a psychologist, but I think that it has a lot to do with their environment and also their minds.

I know very little about it. Don't want to know really.

 

[teacher]

So you got your head snuggly lodged up your backside and can't see the light of day? Let's try some real life analogies...

If you are a little boy in elementary school and you are busy pretending you don't want the little girls to chase you: You're straight.

If you really don't want them to chase you: You're gay.

So you are a little boy, and you come across one of those earliest moments in your life when something happens to your insides while not quite understanding what it is or what it means. For me, it was watching 1 Million Years B.C. Rachel Welch is in that tight little lion cloth get up and for the first time you could care less about clay stop motion dinosaurs and want to see more of her: You're straight.

If you are wishing she would get out of the picture so you can get a better gander at the one of the troglodytes: You're gay.

You're watching Dr. No for the first time, Octo***** steps into the scene in that white bikini with the wide low riding belt and you suddenly want to be James Bond for a whole different reason than fighting bad guys and having way cool toys: You're straight.

If you are checking out James wishing you could be 008 so you can have the locker next to him at Her Majesties Secret Service gym locker room: You're gay.

You're little and you find dad's playboy stash. You show all your friends. That one friend that is missing, and he is in your sisters room having a fake tea party with her, explaining to the dolls the finer points of dining etiquete while he sips pretend tea with pinky extented. Did he choose to be there or is that just what he wanted to do?

You guys gonna tell me at that young age you are making a choice about this?

 

[DeeJayH]

I know one thing for sure
I NEVER chose to be straight, i just am
so i beleive it is the same for homosexuals

Homosexuality, in all likelihood, is an abnormality
it is not a trait passed down, it is a deviation
just like other congenital birth defects

 

[DeeJayH]

Two Questions
1. When did you decide to be straight?
2. Have you ever asked this question to a gay person?

Ever gay person I know, and all of the research out there, says that gay people are born that way.

except for the subset of homosexuals

women who have been repeatedly abused by men and seek the comfort of a woman

and the horny men who have no self control and stick it in anything with a heartbeat
:3oops: :doh

 

[floridaguy]

except for the subset of homosexuals

women who have been repeatedly abused by men and seek the comfort of a woman

and the horny men who have no self control and stick it in anything with a heartbeat
:3oops: :doh

Are you saying you are one of the guys that has self control, and this is why you have never had sex with another guy?

 

[ptsdkid]

Environment not Genetics makes the Homo

#1 From Psychiatrist Jeffrey Satinover, M.D.:

“Like all complex behavioral and mental states, homosexuality is…neither exclusively biological nor exclusively psychological, but results from an as-yet-difficult-to-quantitative mixture of genetic factors, intrauterine influences…postnatal environment (such as parent, sibling and cultural behavior), and a complex series of repeatedly reinforced choices occurring at critical phases of development.”--J. Satinover, M.D., Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth (1996). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books.

#2

William Byne, a psychiatrist with a doctorate in biology, and Bruce Parsons (1993) carefully analyzed all the major biological studies of homosexuality. They found none that definitively supported a biological theory of causation.--W. Byne and B. Parsons, “Human Sexual Orientation: The Biological Theories Reappraised.” Archives of General Psychiatry 50, no.3.)

#3

Psychiatrists Friedman and Downey state that “a biosychosocial model” best fits our knowledge of causation, with various combinations of temperament and environmental events leading to homosexuality. They say: Despite recent neurobiological findings suggesting homosexuality is genetically-biologically determined, credible evidence is lacking for a biological model of homosexuality.”--R. Friedman, M.D. and J. Downey, M.D. Journal of Neuropsychiatry, vol. 5, no. 2, Spring 1993.

#4 From Sociologist Steven Goldberg, Ph.D.:

“Virtually all the evidence argues against there being a determinative physiological causal factor and I know of no researcher who believes that such a determinative factor exists…such factors play a predisposing, not a determinative…I know of no one in the field who argues that homosexuality can be explained without reference to environmental factors.”

While these professionals all agree that the ‘environmental’ factors are responsible for homosexuality, one did say that a ‘genetic’ causation to homosexuality could be a possibility, a genetic model of proof has still yet to be seen or proved. I did notice the word ‘choice’ used here as well. Don’t you just love that book titled, “Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth?”

Doctor of common sense…KidTim

 

[Memnon]

My (admittedly uneducated) p.o.v. is that you are born somewhere on the Kinsey Scale of Sexuality, either "gay" or "straight" and then you sort of act on that in puberty, and slowly move along the scale until you're gay, or you're straight. Or you... don't really move along it, and stay around the middle, in which case you're bisexual.

My two cents, anyways.

 

[teacher]

Re: Environment not Genetics makes the Homo

#Doctor of common sense…KidTim

Shrinks. These are the same guys that would call you a bible thumping, sexist, Navy's only friend, wack job. So they must be right.

Hey KidTim, can you choose to be gay?

teacher, Smack Phd.

 

[Navy Pride]

Re: Environment not Genetics makes the Homo

Shrinks. These are the same guys that would call you a bible thumping, sexist, Navy's only friend, wack job. So they must be right.

Hey KidTim, can you choose to be gay?

teacher, Smack Phd.

No one knows for sure whether your born gay or not but you sure as hell can choose to engage in gay sex acts whether your straight or gay and vice versa............

 

[teacher]

Re: Environment not Genetics makes the Homo

No one knows for sure whether your born gay or not but you sure as hell can choose to engage in gay sex acts whether your straight or gay and vice versa............

You can choose to engage, sure, but, could you get it up Navy? Are you trying to tell me a straight man can choose to walk on the dark side and grow wood? I can't, can you? If you can, then your not straight. What part of this simple logic is beyond you? I'm born straight, all the choosing in the world won't make me able to preform. And isn't what this is about? What about gay guys that can't get it up for hot chicks? It's not a frigging choice. And I could care less wether you religious freaks accept it or not. But it damn sure is fun watching you blowhards squirm and stutter.

I can't choose to be gay. So how can being gay be a choice?

I'd sooner fuc*k an animal than another man. At least the animal couldn't tell anyone. I'd rather be caught banging a female sheep than blowing Stan the plumber.

I'm sure there are plenty of cases where enviormental issues warps someones brain into a unhealthy mind. We damn sure saw that with sissy-boy.

And why the hell don't you believe the gay guys here that tell you it's not choice?

 

[DeeJayH]

Re: Environment not Genetics makes the Homo

You can choose to engage, sure, but, could you get it up Navy? Are you trying to tell me a straight man can choose to walk on the dark side and grow wood? I can't, can you? If you can, then your not straight. What part of this simple logic is beyond you? I'm born straight, all the choosing in the world won't make me able to preform. And isn't what this is about? What about gay guys that can't get it up for hot chicks? It's not a frigging choice. And I could care less wether you religious freaks accept it or not. But it damn sure is fun watching you blowhards squirm and stutter.

I can't choose to be gay. So how can being gay be a choice?

I'd sooner fuc*k an animal than another man. At least the animal couldn't tell anyone. I'd rather be caught banging a female sheep than blowing Stan the plumber.

I'm sure there are plenty of cases where enviormental issues warps someones brain into a unhealthy mind. We damn sure saw that with sissy-boy.

Me thinks thou doth protest to much :lol:

 

[aquapub]

1)The majority of American were opposed to the female vote. So I tend to ignore when the majority wants to oppress the minority.



2)There are many churches that will marry homosexuals. Nobody is forcing a church to do it against their will.



3) And yet, they still can't get society's recognition of their relationship. Sad really.



4) It's got nothing to do with endoresment. Nobody wants the government to push gay marriage onto heterosexuals. They only want a legal recogntion of a bond with a partner they love. Not too surprising that you find no reason to abolish an unfair tradition. I bet men who didn't want women to vote saw no real need to change that tradition.


5) And?

1) It isn't about popularity. I pointed that out to demonstrate that it WASN'T some evangelical deviation from society. You portray this as a radical Christian thing, but society in general rejects gay marriage by around 2/3 of the population.

2) I'm not talking about forcing churches...I am talking about forcing the institution of marriage and the government to undefine marriage by needlessly involving people who, by definition, can't be married. I know marriage is laughed at in the secular liberal world, but it is an important foundational building block for our society and needs to be protected.

3) Not sad, appropriate. When people demand that society publicly acknowledge and endorse their sexual choices, they are making an irrational decision. Society in no way needs to pat these people (or any people) on the head for what they do with their genitalia. These people need to grow up and stop being so damn insecure. It's nauseating.

4) You presume too much. I am for civil unions, just not calling it marriage. Calling it marriage crosses into pandering to the gay community's neurotic need for perpetual validation. Ideally, secular people would all go to civil unions, therefore avoiding the whole God thing, and religious people would have marriage, which is an inherently religious ritual, and thus, appropriate for them.

5) You would be the first woman I have ever met who doesn't assert that polygamy should be illegal because it hurts women. I figured the polygamy point would stand on its own with you.

 

[aquapub]

Basically, hormonal problems during the formation of the hypothalmus can result in fundamental change in the structure of the brain that gives men homosexual tendencies and effeminate characteristics.

Tendencies? Inclinations? We all have such instincts towards violence, sex, etc. "Tendencies" aren't that compelling. They also aren't measurable.

Have these studies measured the brains of children since birth and then followed them? Because it is possible that homosexuals use certain parts of their brains more, hence, if you only looked at adult brains you might see distinctive common threads in the physical dimensions of gay brains and falsely deduce that people must be born with orientation.

No other instinct works this way. They are about achieving stimulus, and it doesn't matter what the source is.

 

[Engimo]

2) I'm not talking about forcing churches...I am talking about forcing the institution of marriage and the government to undefine marriage by needlessly involving people who, by definition, can't be married. I know marriage is laughed at in the secular liberal world, but it is an important foundational building block for our society and needs to be protected.

If marriage is "laughed at in the secular liberal world", why do atheists have the lowest divorce rate?

 

[aquapub]

Enlighten me, cause I missed something.

Not questions like this. no abstracts. No religion. Just logic.

How do you answer it?

Here are two posts I have made that should clarify my logic on this issue:

1)

When people ask whether or not being gay is a choice, it is misleading. It is not a choice in the sense that someone wakes up one day and just decides to be gay. The popular wording emulated in the title of this thread invariably sets up a straw man argument that leads people to conclude that gays are absolved of all responsibility for their lifestyle.

It is not a fully conscious choice, but it is a choice in the sense that not voting is still voting. When you blindly follow any inclinations you are given without deciding anything for yourself, you HAVE chosen, by default, to be whatever your instincts push you towards. If you forfeit all self-control and become whatever you are pushed to become, you have still made a choice.

Sexual instincts work the same way the other ones do. When a baby has an instinct to suck on something, they will suck on a nipple, a pacifier, a bottle, etc. They don't discriminate. Instincts don't discriminate. All your root instincts guide you to do is achieve a particular stimulation. YOU fully control the means by which that stimulation is arrived at.

Your sexual instincts are equally vague. They guide you to get off, period. Your EXPERIENCES may leave you with same sex inclinations, but they are as manageable as a rape victim's instincts towards low self-esteem and promiscuity. You are not BORN gay.

I know we live in a day and age where it is considered impossible to have an instinct and not blindly follow it, but believe it or not, it happens all the time. And it is not repression to think further than basic, raw emotion and instinct; it is a sign of intelligence.



2)

Tendencies? Inclinations? We all have such instincts towards violence, sex, etc. "Tendencies" aren't that compelling. They also aren't measurable.

Have these studies measured the brains of children since birth and then followed them? Because it is possible that homosexuals use certain parts of their brains more, hence, if you only looked at adult brains you might see distinctive common threads in the physical dimensions of gay brains and falsely deduce that people must be born with orientation.

No other instinct works this way. Instincts are about achieving stimulus, and it doesn't matter what the source is.

 

[mixedmedia]

1) 5) You would be the first woman I have ever met who doesn't assert that polygamy should be illegal because it hurts women. I figured the polygamy point would stand on its own with you.

I am a woman and I have no objection to polygamy when the parties are agreeable and of age. You say that marriage is a religious institution. Well, so is polygamy.

 

[Stinger]

I do not believe gays have a choice. I believe they are born gay.

Amzing how the evidence says the opposite of what the majority of the poll want to believe.

 

[floridaguy]

Amzing how the evidence says the opposite of what the majority of the poll want to believe.

What evidence? The useless studies? How can you make someone turn gay? Your saying you could just one day decide to be gay and not have any performance issues?

 

[Citizen]

If homosexuality is genetic, how has the gene carried forward through so many generations?

If people with blue eyes, dominant and recessive, stop reproducing, in how many generations will blue eyes die out?

Yes, of course, homosexuals do, sometimes, reproduce -- but is it in enough numbers to carry the gene in such a large number through so many generations?


IMHO, its a product of environment more than anything else.

Very many homosexuals reproduce. Many homosexuals try to live a straight life and many have children. Many homosexuals have a secret homosexual life that no one knows about. I think that most homosexuals are born that way. Some are homosexuals becuase of environmental factors and some just like sex and don't care who they have relations with.

 

[Citizen]

One of the big reasons so many people don't believe in gay marriage is that they feel being gay is a choice. Thus the term "gay lifestyle". If being homosexual was proven to be something people were born as, perhaps more folks would be accepting of gay marriage. It took a long time for interracial marriage to become legal, and that was a matter of race. People don't "choose" their skin color. Since the gay marriage discussion went over 1,000 posts, I was curious to see what some of the posters thought about this issue.

Also, people chose to believe that homosexuality is perversion. But if two people decide to live their life together in marriage, that is not in my opinion perverted. Many people believe that gay men want to have sex with little boys and multiple partners. I believe that lack of understanding who gay people really are is what causes such distain towards them.

 

[Stinger]

What evidence? The useless studies?

Probably better stated as lack of evidence that someone IS a homosexual in some physical way. It is a behavior, there is no physical difference between men who do and men who don't engage in homosexuality, no genetic difference, no physical difference. Same with women, all types of women engage in lesbian behavior. There is no capability of being born "gay" or "a homosexual".

How can you make someone turn gay?

Turn gay as in "start engaging in homosexual activities", you don't they choose to. Now you might, starting with a very young immature person or a weak minded person entice them into homosexual behavior, but I imagine most freely do so.

Your saying you could just one day decide to be gay and not have any performance issues?

Well since I have no idea what you are saying..................