Trump attacks: Students, Teachers, the Chronically Ill ,orphans and the homeless.

Geoist said:

I have no problem with tightening belts when necessary. But you have to know this is a complete farce when those same 'fiscal conservatives' push for more and more spending on an already bloated military.

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No one is losing an allowance, Americans will be losing what they work for. Social Security is a pension Americans paid into not an allowance. To be given help when a natural disaster strikes isn't an allowance it's a Christian ethic. To help our children succeed by assisting in their education isn't an allowance ,it's an investment in our countries future. What is an allowance is generous subsidies to corporations and huge tax breaks to already filthy rich people who will not reinvest it in America's future. We've been down this road in the past many times. They just wont do it.

During the Eisenhower administration their was a much higher corporate tax rate than by today's standards yet there was full employment. Why, because written into the tax law there was incentives to hire people. Today a corporation can do business in America and hire people in far off countries and get tax breaks anyway. What idiotic CEO would hire Americans if that's the arena he's playing in? Would you folks stop drinking that Kool-aid:lol:

ashurbanipal said:

My ex-wife was a teacher for a while, and she regularly purchased supplies like pencils, erasers, and paper for her students. Pretty hard to see how those are "extra bells and whistles." We averaged spending about $2,000 per year out of pocket on those kinds of supplies.

Had she not made those purchases and flunked her students, she'd have been out of a job, since the district she worked in (like many districts) measured her progress by how well her students did.

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I was waiting for someone to weigh in on the teachers side. Teachers are totally under paid and under appreciated. Just by virtue of the fact that they are continually striving for higher educational excellence as a job requirement should be enough. But that coupled with a relatively low rate of reimbursement as compared to other professions with similar educational requirements shows how under appreciated and under compensated they really are. Now I know I've open a whole new can of worms here, jump right in folks.:lol: But just because I ended that on a light doesn't mean I don't men what I said. Educators are the best in my opinion. So what happened to Trump?

HowardBThiname said:

I've never known pencils and erasers to cost $2,000 per year, but, let's just say they do for argument's sake. It's not the responsibility of the teacher to purchase them. It's the responsibility of the parents.

Let's say the parents won't/can't do it -- go to PTA. I was the President of our District Council PTA for three years and we raised a lot of funds to help in classrooms.

What we found the majority of teacher expenditures to be were decorations for the class walls and things like tissue in the classroom. There again, approach the room parent who has volunteered to help with things like that.

My guess (and, I'm not talking about your wife), is that there's a lot of fraud in this deduction. Teachers were able to purchase all manner of tape, scissors, markers, and just about anything they could say was for the classroom, and then use it at home, instead.

By removing this deduction, we're removing the potential for fraud, and the teachers can still get the supplies they need/want via the regular routes.

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Oh ya I'm sure all the teachers have at least ten thousand pencil and erasers tucked away in their secret hiding places at home. Boy they sure are getting over on all of us. This has to cost the federal government at least ten dollars annually. Let's Mueller on it right away.:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

joG said:

It's always unpleasant to lose your allowance. And it is easier to just stay put as long as the cash comes in, doing thing under the radar. And we now have women having children, whose grandmothers were already living on dole. The system we have built is not so much unsocial. It is asocial in that it has stabilized victim culture. Our Good Human approach has not been good nor humane. It was the easy way to go and lazily excecuted. And now those paying the price are the ones we bred into poverty and crime.

The mess we have build will be difficult to fix.

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Good for you: your resentment didn’t mention welfare queens or strapping young bucks as Reagan did, but “bred into poverty and crime” is a nice phrase. Of course you also didn’t mention the subsidies those of us who are better off get.

Cisero said:

Bump. I want to hear from the pro-Trump members of this forum. How can they justify the cuts in these programs ?

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Simplify the tax code. Doubling the standard deduction, which is a tax cut for 80% of households. Double the child tax credit to $2000.00 A nice overall tax cut for most families. Eliminating the state and local deduction effects primarily wealthier people in high tax states who itemize.

ashurbanipal said:

Sure, but if the parents can't or won't, and she would lose her job if her students don't learn, what is she going to do?

My answer, that I put to teachers in that district at a few meetings, was that they should quit and do something else. Last I heard, the budgets have been cut back so much there that students are now standing or sitting on the floor in classrooms in that building, there's no heat in winter or air conditioning in summer. Those conditions are even starting to creep into wealthier districts, and teachers are finally giving up and just leaving.

She eventually did as well. It was just impossible to do her job and survive on what they were paying her. She was heartbroken because she wanted to teach, but had to realize she just couldn't. Not in that state and district, anyway.



The PTA has no authority to affect whether she's judged a good or bad teacher. What funds the PTA raised typically went to the football team, not to any classrooms, as far as I could tell. She certainly never got anything.



Her school didn't have "room parents." I would put it to you that there are plenty of studies that show a visually rich environment aids early development. I suppose you can avoid tissues if you want germ-infused snot everywhere.



I'm sure there's some fraud. There is any time money is flowing anywhere.



Some may. But many cannot.

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If all of that is honest, and I have no reason to think that it isn't, I'd say there's a lack of parental participation in the district where your wife taught.

The "visually rich" aids comment is interesting, however, since classrooms today are decorated to the 9s while literacy outcomes are consistently dropping.

If your ex had to buy pencils and paper for the children who didn't have them, she couldn't have spent more than $100 per year, for a class of around 30. Those, as far as I can tell, would be the only truly necessary items to keep the kids from flunking, as you say.

At any rate, I can't see allowing a deduction, since those deductions aren't allowed in other types of careers.

It's really up to the teachers in a school to get together and ask parent associations to support them if they need extra support.

Rich123 said:

Oh ya I'm sure all the teachers have at least ten thousand pencil and erasers tucked away in their secret hiding places at home. Boy they sure are getting over on all of us. This has to cost the federal government at least ten dollars annually. Let's Mueller on it right away.:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

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That's the point, Rich. No one has 10K pencils tucked away, meaning the money is being funneled into other home items. Want a digital projector for your home theater? Buy it for your class.

No, it's not $10 annually, it's $2,500 per teacher. You understand, of course, that the govt. is not handing them that amount, but rather deducting it from their income for tax purposes.

Many teachers never take the deduction, so it won't be missed by them.

At any rate -- what can you possibly think of (item-wise) that justifies $2,500, annually, in purchases for a classroom?

And, why should teachers get that deduction while other workers in other careers -- who must buy items to supplement their careers -- are not allowed deductions?

Rich123 said:

I was waiting for someone to weigh in on the teachers side. Teachers are totally under paid and under appreciated. Just by virtue of the fact that they are continually striving for higher educational excellence as a job requirement should be enough. But that coupled with a relatively low rate of reimbursement as compared to other professions with similar educational requirements shows how under appreciated and under compensated they really are. Now I know I've open a whole new can of worms here, jump right in folks.:lol: But just because I ended that on a light doesn't mean I don't men what I said. Educators are the best in my opinion. So what happened to Trump?

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Elementary school teachers typically need a bachelors and the national median salary is around $55K. New hires are less, of course, and tenured teachers are more.

Here's the problem, teachers, as a whole, are not getting better, in fact literacy rates are still dropping and the US currently ranks 17th in educational performance. That's nothing to be proud of. Why are we lagging behind other first-world nations?

Are you going to tell me it's because we don't pay our teachers enough? If so, why then, were achievement rates so much higher when teaching salaries were much lower in the 50s and 60s?

I know this is a broad topic, but I'd like to hear your ideas. We have students graduating with bachelors today that don't have nearly the grasp (on average) of math and language arts as did high school graduates in the 60s. Why are we seeing this if our educators are world class?

Nickyjo said:

Good for you: your resentment didn’t mention welfare queens or strapping young bucks as Reagan did, but “bred into poverty and crime” is a nice phrase. Of course you also didn’t mention the subsidies those of us who are better off get.

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Actually i borrowed that nice phrase from a sociology paper i read a while ago.

joG said:

Actually i borrowed that nice phrase from a sociology paper i read a while ago.

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Still, a bad phrase, as no one is bred into poverty and crime, but into circumstances that make poverty and crime more likely. The latter, of course is too awkward a phrase for our sound bite culture.

HowardBThiname said:

That's the point, Rich. No one has 10K pencils tucked away, meaning the money is being funneled into other home items. Want a digital projector for your home theater? Buy it for your class.

No, it's not $10 annually, it's $2,500 per teacher. You understand, of course, that the govt. is not handing them that amount, but rather deducting it from their income for tax purposes.

Many teachers never take the deduction, so it won't be missed by them.

At any rate -- what can you possibly think of (item-wise) that justifies $2,500, annually, in purchases for a classroom?

And, why should teachers get that deduction while other workers in other careers -- who must buy items to supplement their careers -- are not allowed deductions?

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Why should corporations be allowed to deduct their expenses but not teachers? If you're concerned about fraud, why are you not concerned about the generous corporate deductions allowed in both the senate and house versions of the bill? Perhaps teachers should just incorporate themselves as pass-through entities ... lol. You're trying to rationalize something that isn't rational. The bill is just a giveaway to the wealthy. If you support that, at least own it.

GhostlyJoe said:

Why should corporations be allowed to deduct their expenses but not teachers? If you're concerned about fraud, why are you not concerned about the generous corporate deductions allowed in both the senate and house versions of the bill? Perhaps teachers should just incorporate themselves as pass-through entities ... lol. You're trying to rationalize something that isn't rational. The bill is just a giveaway to the wealthy. If you support that, at least own it.

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You obviously know very little about taxation.

Legitimate deductions are expenses that translate into the cost of doing business. For example, if a corporation must hire 10 workers to produce its product, the cost paid to those workers, plus the value paid in benefit to those workers is a cost of doing business. Therefore, it's legitimately deductible because it is not a part of the net income.

However, costs incurred that are not necessary for doing business are not deductible. A corporation must account for every transaction during the fiscal year, both in and out.

Teachers, being employees, do not deduct the cost of the things they buy for the classroom on a separate business Schedule, unless they're independent contractors, in which case it would be a legitimate expense. However, teachers were being allowed to use up to the $2,500 limit, ostensibly for classroom costs as a direct deduction without having to file as an independent contractor. That puts them in the same category as carpenters who supply their own hand tools for work and any other worker who pays out of his own pocket toward his job. The point is -- teachers are not more valuable than carpenters, or ditch diggers, or burger-flippers, or any other workers. They should not get a deduction that other workers do not get.

Understand?

HowardBThiname said:

You obviously know very little about taxation.

Legitimate deductions are expenses that translate into the cost of doing business. For example, if a corporation must hire 10 workers to produce its product, the cost paid to those workers, plus the value paid in benefit to those workers is a cost of doing business. Therefore, it's legitimately deductible because it is not a part of the net income.

However, costs incurred that are not necessary for doing business are not deductible. A corporation must account for every transaction during the fiscal year, both in and out.

Teachers, being employees, do not deduct the cost of the things they buy for the classroom on a separate business Schedule, unless they're independent contractors, in which case it would be a legitimate expense. However, teachers were being allowed to use up to the $2,500 limit, ostensibly for classroom costs as a direct deduction without having to file as an independent contractor. That puts them in the same category as carpenters who supply their own hand tools for work and any other worker who pays out of his own pocket toward his job. The point is -- teachers are not more valuable than carpenters, or ditch diggers, or burger-flippers, or any other workers. They should not get a deduction that other workers do not get.

Understand?

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I understand perfectly: In your and Republicans' minds, employees are equivalent to staplers and fax machines -- tools to be used for corporate gain. In reality, there's no real reason to allow corporations to deduct business expenses but not teachers, or ditch-diggers, or burger flippers. If McDonald's makes burger flippers buy their own spatulas, then they should be able to deduct that, too.

GhostlyJoe said:

I understand perfectly: In your and Republicans' minds, employees are equivalent to staplers and fax machines -- tools to be used for corporate gain. In reality, there's no real reason to allow corporations to deduct business expenses but not teachers, or ditch-diggers, or burger flippers. If McDonald's makes burger flippers buy their own spatulas, then they should be able to deduct that, too.

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McDonald's doesn't make their burger-flippers buy their own spatulas -- and neither do school systems make teachers buy additional supplies.

Many carpenters, however, must buy their own hand tools and many workplaces require workers to wear uniforms that they must buy themselves -- yet they have no way to deduct them.

You're making my point for me, because you don't understand how taxation works.

The teachers are losing the deduction because it wasn't valid and it wasn't fair across the board.

There is no legitimate comparison between that and business deductions, that's what they are, btw, business deductions, not "corporation" deductions.

HowardBThiname said:

McDonald's doesn't make their burger-flippers buy their own spatulas -- and neither do school systems make teachers buy additional supplies.

Many carpenters, however, must buy their own hand tools and many workplaces require workers to wear uniforms that they must buy themselves -- yet they have no way to deduct them.

You're making my point for me, because you don't understand how taxation works.

The teachers are losing the deduction because it wasn't valid and it wasn't fair across the board.

There is no legitimate comparison between that and business deductions, that's what they are, btw, business deductions, not "corporation" deductions.

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How many years were you a teacher?

HowardBThiname said:

That's the point, Rich. No one has 10K pencils tucked away, meaning the money is being funneled into other home items. Want a digital projector for your home theater? Buy it for your class.

No, it's not $10 annually, it's $2,500 per teacher. You understand, of course, that the govt. is not handing them that amount, but rather deducting it from their income for tax purposes.

Many teachers never take the deduction, so it won't be missed by them.

At any rate -- what can you possibly think of (item-wise) that justifies $2,500, annually, in purchases for a classroom?

And, why should teachers get that deduction while other workers in other careers -- who must buy items to supplement their careers -- are not allowed deductions?

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Not to labor the point but my research has the deduction for teachers supplying class room supplies at $250.00 per teacher per year, not $2500.00. Other workers do get deductions. I deduct my union dues,uniforms and their upkeep. If trade journals were necessary for my employment I could deduct their cost. I could also deduct cell services if required for my employment . Trade people can and should deduct their tools. I do my own taxes so I know this stuff.

haymarket said:

How many years were you a teacher?

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Howard your wrong about those deductions. Uniforms and their up keep are certainly a deduction. So are trade journal's cost, cell service, tools, transportation and union dues . Anything which is not supplied or reimbursed by the employer and are required for you to do your job are generally considered deductible. I do my own taxes and every year some of those items,are line item deduction for me. Which ones depends on your employment circumstances.

HowardBThiname said:

McDonald's doesn't make their burger-flippers buy their own spatulas -- and neither do school systems make teachers buy additional supplies.

Many carpenters, however, must buy their own hand tools and many workplaces require workers to wear uniforms that they must buy themselves -- yet they have no way to deduct them.

You're making my point for me, because you don't understand how taxation works.

The teachers are losing the deduction because it wasn't valid and it wasn't fair across the board.

There is no legitimate comparison between that and business deductions, that's what they are, btw, business deductions, not "corporation" deductions.

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Nonsense. We're talking about the tools you need to do your job. The different classifications are what's arbitrary -- as are the differing cut expiration dates for individuals and businesses. You're just stretching to justify the absurdity of this tax plan.

Chomsky said:

They (trump/GOP) are constrained by what they thought they could get away with in increasing the debt payment to increase the deficit.

CBO scored it as $1.5T added to the deficit, as long as the individual tax cuts (to make up for the removed individual deductions) end in 2023/27. Otherwise, the deficit shoots up much higher. And this is all predicated in their rich-guy tax cuts strongly stimulating the economy! If not, the deficit goes up even higher!

So we will have much lower revenue, and rising deficits, in a rising interest rate environment. But the deficit and debt can't increase past the 1.5T allotted! So we will then hit sequestration, and we start cutting Social Security, Medicaid, and other things the GOP don't like.

Cutting social programs is a big part of this, I believe. And now, they've (GOP) finally figured out how to do it; by law.

And of course Trump walks away with an estimated $1B+, when he signs on the dotted line. And the other Billionaires and Corps laugh all the way to the bank (a bank probably located in some other non-taxing country).

Great times in America, alright. And the populace stands idly by, with many not even understanding or caring about what's occurring. Kinda' makes you wonder if there should be an IQ or civic-participation test administered before one has kids, doesn't? 'Cuz I'm sure as hell not happy leaving my kids with this mess!

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Yah my kids are aware of what's happening but I have a brother and several other friends and relatives who just think everything is business as usual.

Teachers can no longer deduct out-of-pocket expenses for supplemental supplies for their classroom or students who lack materials because some belong to unions .

Childless couples can contribute to college funds for children that don't exist. Just because non-existent children have the right to an education?

GhostlyJoe said:

I understand perfectly: In your and Republicans' minds, employees are equivalent to staplers and fax machines -- tools to be used for corporate gain. In reality, there's no real reason to allow corporations to deduct business expenses but not teachers, or ditch-diggers, or burger flippers. If McDonald's makes burger flippers buy their own spatulas, then they should be able to deduct that, too.

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Howard I'm sorry to have to tell you that the deduction teachers can take for supplying certain class room items is only $250.00 per year, not $2500.00 per year. Secondly you do not have to file as an independent contractor in order to itemize on your return. I itemize every year and I never file as a independent contractor. Thirdly, there are deductions every one who is gainfully employed can take if, there employer requires those items for you to have to do your work and the employer doesn't supply or reimburse you for them. Some of those items include, trade journals, union dues, uniforms, transportation, cell service and tools. I deduct some but not all of the item's expense listed above every year. I will not be audited because these are legitimate deductions. I've been doing it for many years now. The qualifying condition is, does your employer require them and does your employer reimburse or supply them to you. If you are reimbursed or supplied the item, you can not claim them.

Parrish said:

Teachers can no longer deduct out-of-pocket expenses for supplemental supplies for their classroom or students who lack materials because some belong to unions .

Childless couples can contribute to college funds for children that don't exist. Just because non-existent children have the right to an education?

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I'm sorry Parrish but I don't understand what your saying.

HowardBThiname said:

Elementary school teachers typically need a bachelors and the national median salary is around $55K. New hires are less, of course, and tenured teachers are more.

Here's the problem, teachers, as a whole, are not getting better, in fact literacy rates are still dropping and the US currently ranks 17th in educational performance. That's nothing to be proud of. Why are we lagging behind other first-world nations?

Are you going to tell me it's because we don't pay our teachers enough? If so, why then, were achievement rates so much higher when teaching salaries were much lower in the 50s and 60s?

I know this is a broad topic, but I'd like to hear your ideas. We have students graduating with bachelors today that don't have nearly the grasp (on average) of math and language arts as did high school graduates in the 60s. Why are we seeing this if our educators are world class?

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In my opinion too much of societies ills is placed on the educational system. Such things that should actually begin in the home. Under nourished children coming from unstructured home life impacts the whole of the educational system. LATCH KEY children are another significant problem. The fact that it takes two salaries for a family to make these days. When I was coming up it was general understood that it took one week to pay for the roof over your head and three weeks of earnings to pay for every thing else including savings for your future and that was done on one salary. Now two people have to work and there's no savings. With one person working children had more structure and the educational environment within a school was superior. Teachers for the most part are dedicated and want all children to succeed but this social load puts an unfair burden on them. By the way this unfair burden didn't happen by accident and the fact that teachers are scapegoated isn't accidental either. Just like social security and medicare will be blamed for the huge hole in the budget that will be caused by this tax bill that was just passed. It's all part of the plan. The same people who will blame social security and medicare are the same one's who have wanted to kill the educational system . They are the same one's who give huge tax breaks to people who are already wealthy and tell the rest of us it's needed so they will create jobs. Trouble is, they wont , and never have . Under Eisenhower the corporate tax rate was nearly 90% and there was full employment because there was tax incentives to hire people. Now the one's who want to kill Social Security, medicare and the educational system give everything tho the wealthy and allow them to set up shops in low wage countries and import their products and do business in America all the while we lower their taxes. Where's the incentive to hire Americans? So when the budget gets blown out, the republicans wont blame the tax cut, they will blame under educated Americans and so the cycle goes. It's real easy to see if one wants to view with an honest eye.

haymarket said:

How many years were you a teacher?

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What is that comment supposed to mean?

Does a person have to be a teacher to understand how taxation works?

I've seen you post a lot of silly things, but that just might be the silliest.

Rich123 said:

In my opinion too much of societies ills is placed on the educational system. Such things that should actually begin in the home. Under nourished children coming from unstructured home life impacts the whole of the educational system. LATCH KEY children are another significant problem. The fact that it takes two salaries for a family to make these days. When I was coming up it was general understood that it took one week to pay for the roof over your head and three weeks of earnings to pay for every thing else including savings for your future and that was done on one salary. Now two people have to work and there's no savings. With one person working children had more structure and the educational environment within a school was superior.

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I don't disagree with any of that but, as a society, we evolved away from the model you're describing. Women decided they wanted careers instead of just being stay-at-home mothers and wives. They understood that they were every bit as smart, if not smarter, than their husbands, and they wanted a shot at making the world a better place. That genie just isn't going back down into that bottle. Women demand "rights" today. LOL

Teachers for the most part are dedicated and want all children to succeed but this social load puts an unfair burden on them. By the way this unfair burden didn't happen by accident and the fact that teachers are scapegoated isn't accidental either. Just like social security and medicare will be blamed for the huge hole in the budget that will be caused by this tax bill that was just passed. It's all part of the plan. The same people who will blame social security and medicare are the same one's who have wanted to kill the educational system .

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Teachers probably start out wanting to help children, but the NEA turns those good intentions into a "me, me, me" syndrome, that pits teachers against taxpayers. Jimmy Carter was instrumental in that epic failure.

If you've ever seen the hiring requirements for teachers 100 years ago, I think you'd call the requirements of today's teachers an "unfair burden." But, that said, it is more difficult for teachers to operate under the requirements of being unable to discipline unruly students. That's not a factor in parochial schools where kids still get paddled -- and mind. There are numerous reasons why private school students (and even homeschooled kids) outscore public school kids, and I'm not talking about just the average kids, but also those considered "gifted." It's obvious that it's less about the teacher's credentials than it is about structure and expectations.

They are the same one's who give huge tax breaks to people who are already wealthy and tell the rest of us it's needed so they will create jobs. Trouble is, they wont , and never have . Under Eisenhower the corporate tax rate was nearly 90% and there was full employment because there was tax incentives to hire people. Now the one's who want to kill Social Security, medicare and the educational system give everything tho the wealthy and allow them to set up shops in low wage countries and import their products and do business in America all the while we lower their taxes.

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That was 90% of "taxable income," and due to massive deductions, the effective rate was closer to 40%, but even that's really too much. Isn't it? When taxation gets that high, where is the motivation to keep creating huge incomes? Why not slack off, earn a fraction as much and keep nearly the same amount? That's always been the problem in the equation.

Where's the incentive to hire Americans? So when the budget gets blown out, the republicans wont blame the tax cut, they will blame under educated Americans and so the cycle goes. It's real easy to see if one wants to view with an honest eye.

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When Americans price themselves out of the market as workers, which happened in the auto industry, manufacturers will go overseas. It's simple math. No manufacturer is going to value hiring Americans so highly that he ends up bankrupt. This, of course, is a direct result of organized labor and their anti-American tactics. There's a reason union membership is at an all-time low today. What goes around, tends to come back around.

So, while many of your observations are correct, the reasoning behind them is sort of faulty.