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Should We Get Rid Of Monuments?

PIPEWRENCH said:
No. We cannot change peoples minds or beliefs by moving monuments around or destroying them. We cannot change the past. We can make changes today. We can stop the exploitation today.



A lot of men go to war without real knowledge of what or who they are even fighting for. Especially in the past when most soldiers could barely read or write. Look at all the men who went to war in Vietnam who did not believe what they were doing was right but fought for their country anyway.

I was in the military and would have gone and fought most anywhere I was sent at the time. I most likely would not know whether I was fighting for the right cause or the wrong cause until after the fact. If I were killed in battle serving my country and later on it was determined I died fighting for the wrong cause does that make me a worthless piece of crap. Should people pee on my grave. A lot of people fighting for the south truly believed they were fighting for what was right. Slavery was a way of life the same for them as it was for our founding fathers.

Tearing down monuments is not the answer. Denying and hiding the mistakes of the past only makes it more likely and easier to repeat them. These men fought for what they believed was a way of life necessary for survival. They believed the south could not exist without slaves just the same as the ignorant belief today that we need to exploit illegal aliens for our food to be affordable today. Both are outright lies yet millions believe the lie. Instead of tearing down monuments lets stop the exploitation that is happening today right here in this country. We can stop the exploitation today we cannot change the past only learn from it.
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Your post is dishonest. Monuments to the Confederacy should be relocated.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Because there was zero point in spending money to ship people from their own colonial empires into the mainland? I do hate to break it to you though, but plenty of people from the English and French empires ended up in England and France proper. Your grasp of history is even thinner than I first realized.
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They didn't buy the slaves from their own empires and they took them to their new territories. Getting snarky does not change the history.

Actually, considering that Europeans are the ones who, you know., kept the slave trade into the new world from continuing via the Royal Navy..... as usual you are wrong.
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Actually being the ones who protected the estabishment of it and profittes off it. Nope.

They had a soft spot for the hope that the slavers could break the US. When push came to shove England and France didn't back the "CSA". No one did.
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Because of as I said already.

Your fantasy is amusing, and it remains a fantasy. No one will ever know, and frankly it's unlikely as the actual actions of the US government shows.

Definitely. No European state needed a civil war to ban slavery.
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Its called history you should look it up.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Good luck with that buddy. Considering that the South literally went on and said "**** the constitution, African Americans don't get rights" for another hundred years after the war, you'll be waiting a while.
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You believe they had rights in the North? You really are lacking in history arent you.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Oh, the South made it pretty ****ing clear what they were fighting for.
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And you think Lincoln invaded the South to free the slaves?

If you were killing American soldiers and sailors, then yes, I see no reason why we should erect monuments to your cause, especially one as evil as the Confederacy.
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And as evil as the United States where slavery was also legal?
 
Stinger said:
They didn't buy the slaves from their own empires and they took them to their new territories. Getting snarky does not change the history.


Actually being the ones who protected the estabishment of it and profittes off it. Nope.



Because of as I said already.


Its called history you should look it up.
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Actually, buddy, by the mid 1800s the Europeans had made substantial conquests in Africa. Perhaps you should open a history book every once in a while, you might actually learn something.

Yep. Without the Royal Navy your beloved thugs would have kept importing slaves.

Because no one except for slavery and Brazilians liked the "peculiar institution".

Actual actions of the government, vs your fantasies. Hmm.....
 
Stinger said:
You believe they had rights in the North? You really are lacking in history arent you.
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Nobody was firebombing African American churches up north. Nobody was burning people alive for registering people to vote up north. And there certainly didn't need a airborne division to get kids to school up north.

Learn some ****ing history.
 
Stinger said:
And you think Lincoln invaded the South to free the slaves?


And as evil as the United States where slavery was also legal?
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Lincoln made it clear that he was going to preserve the Union. The South wholeheartedly believed he was going to end slavery. That's why they seceded in the first place.

Despite your desperation, the facts remain. But hey, way to demonstrate historical ignorance.
 
katzgar said:
Your post is dishonest. Monuments to the Confederacy should be relocated.
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You actually believe moving monuments from point A to point B will solve the prejudice and hate in this country. I don't think so.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Did we celebrate the destruction of americans' constitutional rights on his gravestone?
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It is quite obvious he said screw the constitution and the part about all men being created equal. Obviously he did not believe the black man was equal. That is why he exploited them as slaves to become rich and powerful.
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
You actually believe moving monuments from point A to point B will solve the prejudice and hate in this country. I don't think so.
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You actually believe monuments to racism shoved in African Americans face is a way to solve a problem? I don't think so.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Considering that people today still worship such evil "causes" there is no reason to pander to them. And we can absolutely change how people view the past, especially the newer generations who perhaps won't be taught that killing American soldiers and sailors is something to be celebrated.

How are we supposed to stop the exploitation today when a good chunk of the country sees nothing wrong with the idea?
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I know. Lets move a whole bunch of monuments around.

I am sure if we put them on the other side of the street or the other side of town all prejudice will come to an end.
 
katzgar said:
You actually believe monuments to racism shoved in African Americans face is a way to solve a problem? I don't think so.
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No. I believe addressing the root of the problem is the solution. The root of the problem is the teaching of children by parents and peers hate and prejudice. Moving monuments built to dead people of the past around will do nothing to solve the problem.
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
It is quite obvious he said screw the constitution and the part about all men being created equal. Obviously he did not believe the black man was equal. That is why he exploited them as slaves to become rich and powerful.
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And it's quite obvious that quite a few Americans don't believe in that either, but nobody erected a monument to it on his statues
 
Tigerace117 said:
No one is denying the Civil War is happening. No one is hiding it. We are simply correcting mistakes made after the Civil War, where in the rush to forgive the people who had killed hundreds of thousands of loyal Americans we abandoned American citizens to another hundred years of oppression.
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Building monuments to loved ones who had fallen in battle is not promoting the hate and prejudice in this country. 90+% of the people in this country have never visited any of these monuments. You can move or remove all the monuments erected to the fallen soldiers of the civil war and the hate and prejudice will continue because they are not the problem nor the solution.
 
Tigerace117 said:
And it's quite obvious that quite a few Americans don't believe in that either, but nobody erected a monument to it on his statues
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By not moving or removing the Washington Monument we are say it is OK to honor a white supremacist who exploited and enslaved people. A man who did not believe women were equal. A man who only believed that rich people who owned property should vote and be a part of the decision process in this country.
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
Building monuments to loved ones who had fallen in battle is not promoting the hate and prejudice in this country. 90+% of the people in this country have never visited any of these monuments. You can move or remove all the monuments erected to the fallen soldiers of the civil war and the hate and prejudice will continue because they are not the problem nor the solution.
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Yes it is, especially when those monuments explicitly celebrate the "triumph" of white supremacy.

Propaganda claiming that the Confederacy is somehow a "noble cause" does indeed aid the hatred.
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
By not moving or removing the Washington Monument we are say it is OK to honor a white supremacist who exploited and enslaved people. A man who did not believe women were equal. A man who only believed that rich people who owned property should vote and be a part of the decision process in this country.
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And Americans have already said they are perfectly fine with that, so why should we pretend that he's the moral equivalent of the Confederacy just because you want to sing to "muh rebellion".
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
No. I believe addressing the root of the problem is the solution. The root of the problem is the teaching of children by parents and peers hate and prejudice. Moving monuments built to dead people of the past around will do nothing to solve the problem.
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People understand that the Confederate monuments were built to remind the world about slavery and the Confederacy and white nationalism. Your support of the keeping the Confederate monuments up is understood to be code for white nationalism
 
Tigerace117 said:
Yes it is, especially when those monuments explicitly celebrate the "triumph" of white supremacy.

Propaganda claiming that the Confederacy is somehow a "noble cause" does indeed aid the hatred.
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I remember in my youth visiting the first monument to the fallen soldiers of the confederacy. I was immediately overwhelmed with hatred and prejudice. I all of sudden wanted slaves of my own. But instead I settled for a herd of unicorns. With that I conclude this lunacy that monuments are the cause of prejudice and hate in this country.
 
Tigerace117 said:
And Americans have already said they are perfectly fine with that, so why should we pretend that he's the moral equivalent of the Confederacy just because you want to sing to "muh rebellion".
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So you are Ok with monuments to white supremacist who support and participate in slavery. Just so we get it straight now.
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
So you are Ok with monuments to white supremacist who support and participate in slavery. Just so we get it straight now.
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So you are okay with making false equivalences in a desperate attempt to defend your beloved slaveocracy. Just so we have it straight.
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
I remember in my youth visiting the first monument to the fallen soldiers of the confederacy. I was immediately overwhelmed with hatred and prejudice. I all of sudden wanted slaves of my own. But instead I settled for a herd of unicorns. With that I conclude this lunacy that monuments are the cause of prejudice and hate in this country.
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Nope, the people who worship those monuments and keep talking about how they'd love to give it another go are the problem. But good job failing.
 
Tigerace117 said:
So you are okay with making false equivalences in a desperate attempt to defend your beloved slaveocracy. Just so we have it straight.
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I don't support slavery or any type of exploitation. I don't believe a granite stone causes people to become prejudice nor do I believe that moving or removing a stone from where it currently is will bring prejudice and hate to an end. I do not justify one person exploiting slavery while condemning another. That in itself is prejudice and 2 faced. It is the people who want these stones moved or removed that are the ones being filled with hate and prejudice over a monument. Mentally stable people can observe a monument without becoming full of hate and prejudice.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Nope, the people who worship those monuments and keep talking about how they'd love to give it another go are the problem. But good job failing.
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In my travels all across this country visiting all our national parks and a lot of points of interest including thousands of markers and monuments I have yet to see anyone worshiping these stones. The vast majority of the people observing these monuments were tourist from other countries and people like myself who wish to see all the wonders of this country. You imply that there are daily rituals around these monuments with millions of people worshiping these monuments the same as going to church. Save your lies for those who have never been anywhere or seen anything.
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
In my travels all across this country visiting all our national parks and a lot of points of interest including thousands of markers and monuments I have yet to see anyone worshiping these stones. The vast majority of the people observing these monuments were tourist from other countries and people like myself who wish to see all the wonders of this country. You imply that there are daily rituals around these monuments with millions of people worshiping these monuments the same as going to church. Save your lies for those who have never been anywhere or seen anything.
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A confederate monument is not a "wonder of the country"; it is a monument to a despicable and cowardly regime which murdered thousands of Americans in defense of slavery. Inscriptions celebrating the "triumph of white supremacy" are routine. And people in the south, who already worship the idea of a "War of Northern Aggression" hold them akin to holy idols.
 
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