You Guys Can Exhale Now!

[Rich2018]

That trigger has to reset, look it up. Several people have schooled you on what a fully automatic arm is. Rather than learning and saying something valid such as "bump stocks allow someone to fire a semi automatic rifle more rapidly than the same firearm without the bump stock" you keep repeating the massive error that bump stocks turn a semi auto into a fully automatic firearm, If that was true, Bump fire stocks never would have been legal after May 19, 1986

But you don't need to reset with a bump-stock.

You get automatic fire with one trigger pull.

 

[ttwtt78640]

But you don't need to reset with a bump-stock.

You get automatic fire with one trigger pull.

Nope, you simply get more rapid trigger pulls.

 

[Rich2018]

and that is a lie--what you should say is that a bump fire allows a semi auto to fire more rapidly that the gun would without the accessory

Post #56

"Yes they are, a bump stock makes a single action gun fire automatically..."

 

[Rich2018]

Nope, you simply get more rapid trigger pulls.

No you don't, your finger doesn't make more than one depression of the trigger.

Watch the video.

 

[dave8383]

No you don't, your finger doesn't make more than one depression of the trigger.

Watch the video.

But the weapon itself is not a fully automatic weapon.

 

[dave8383]

Post #56

"Yes they are, a bump stock makes a single action gun fire automatically..."

With additional assistance from the shooter above and beyond just depressing the trigger.

 

[Rich2018]

But the weapon itself is not a fully automatic weapon.

No it's not an "automatic weapon" .

 

[Rich2018]

With additional assistance from the shooter.

Really the bump stock. The shooter doesn't really have to do anything.

 

[dave8383]

Really the bump stock. The shooter doesn't really have to do anything.

Yes he does. He can't just depress the trigger. He has to apply forward pressure on the weapon at the same time.

 

[TurtleDude]

Post #56

"Yes they are, a bump stock makes a single action gun fire automatically..."

well the ATF disagreed with you, the gun makers disagree with you, and experts like me disagree with you. Bottom line-is you clearly don't understand the terms

 

[ttwtt78640]

No you don't, your finger doesn't make more than one depression of the trigger.

Watch the video.

I did watch the video, The bump stock allows the gun's recoil to assist in making the subsequent trigger pulls - which is fine so long as your mission is to empty the magazine on a single target.

 

[Rich2018]

Yes he does. He can't just depress the trigger. He has to apply forward pressure on the weapon at the same time.

Alright the trigger is more complicated...but a shooter doesn't apply pressure from his shoulder after every shot.

And a riflemen applies such pressure to the shoulder stock anyway.

 

[Rich2018]

I did watch the video, The bump stock allows the gun's recoil to assist in making the subsequent trigger pulls - which is fine so long as your mission is to empty the magazine on a single target.

Or a large crowd.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Or a large crowd.

That is already illegal.

 

[Rich2018]

well the ATF disagreed with you, the gun makers disagree with you, and experts like me disagree with you. Bottom line-is you clearly don't understand the terms

Quote me where the ATF says a bump stoch does facilitate automatic fire.

Bump stocks are banned because they do.



"A federal ban on bump stocks -- attachments that essentially allow shooters to fire semiautomatic rifles continuously with one pull of the trigger -- begins Tuesday...."

Bump stock ban: What it means for owners - CNNPolitics



"On December 18, 2018, Acting Attorney General Matthew Whitaker announced that the Department of Justice has amended the regulations of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms (ATF), clarifying that bump stocks fall within the definition of “machinegun” under federal law, as such devices allow a shooter of a semiautomatic firearm to initiate a continuous firing cycle with a single pull of the trigger...."


Bump Stocks | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives



So no, the ATF does NOT disagree, nor does the DOJ.


But you and your limited knowledge of firearms do not....who should I believe ?

 

[TurtleDude]

Quote me where the ATF says a bump stoch does facilitate automatic fire.

Bump stocks are banned because they do.



"A federal ban on bump stocks -- attachments that essentially allow shooters to fire semiautomatic rifles continuously with one pull of the trigger -- begins Tuesday...."

Bump stock ban: What it means for owners - CNNPolitics



"On December 18, 2018, Acting Attorney General Matthew Whitaker announced that the Department of Justice has amended the regulations of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms (ATF), clarifying that bump stocks fall within the definition of “machinegun” under federal law, as such devices allow a shooter of a semiautomatic firearm to initiate a continuous firing cycle with a single pull of the trigger...."


Bump Stocks | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives



So no, the ATF does NOT disagree, nor does the DOJ.


But you and your limited knowledge of firearms do not....who should I believe ?

I cannot help it if you don't understand the technicalities of firearms. A bump stock does not turn a semi auto firearm into a fully automatic firearm. What it does do is allow an untrained individual to spray bullets with a semi auto at a faster rate than they can without the bump stock but not as fast as a true automatic weapon

What Is a Bump Stock and How Does It Work? - The New York Times
what is the normal Rate of fire of an M4 carbine being used with the selector set at fully automatic? around 800 RPM but the specs state 700-900 or so (ammunition can affect this)




what is the rate of fire with an AR 15 and a bump stock?


BTW from the NY Times

The bump stock is not banned under federal law even though it allows a weapon to fire at nearly the rate of a machine gun without technically converting it to a fully automatic firearm “The classification of these devices depends on whether they mechanically alter the function of the firearm to fire fully automatic,” Jill Snyder, a special agent in charge at the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, said at a news conference in Las Vegas on Tuesday. “Bump-fire stocks, while simulating automatic fire, do not actually alter the firearm to fire automatically, making them legal under current federal law.”

this article says similar things

Bump Stocks: What You Need to Know | Fortune

a fully automatic weapon shoots about 14 rounds per second. Using a bump stock with a semi automatic AR-15 gave the Las Vegas shooter the ability to fire about 9 shots per second, according to analysis of footage by the New York Times.

Top speed shooters, using a semi auto handgun or rifle with no modifications can achieve rates near 7 rounds a second.

 

[Rich2018]

I cannot help it if you don't understand the technicalities of firearms....

I quoted the ATF web page which says it regards bump stocks as automatic firearms under FEDERAL law...as do the DOJ


Which you said they do not. Now you refuse to admit you're wrong and scramble to post some outdated data from a dubious web page.

....a bump stock does not turn a semi auto firearm into a fully automatic firearm....

Technically no. It does, however, make it capable of automatic fire though and consequently is regarded as a machine gun by the ATF and DOJ

Which you FALSELY said was not the case

...the bump stock is not banned under federal law even though it allows a weapon to fire at nearly the rate of a machine gun without technically converting it to a fully automatic firearm “The classification of these devices depends on whether they mechanically alter the function of the firearm to fire fully automatic,” Jill Snyder, a special agent in charge at the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, said at a news conference in Las Vegas on Tuesday. “Bump-fire stocks, while simulating automatic fire, do not actually alter the firearm to fire automatically, making them legal under current federal law.”...

You are grasping at STRAWS

The Date on your simple web site is Feb 21st 2018


Here's the ATF web page again (which is way more of an official site than your Fortune web page):

"The Final Rule
The rule will go into effect March 26, 2019; 90 days from the date of publication in the Federal Register.

The final rule clarifies that the definition of “machinegun” in the Gun Control Act (GCA) and National Firearms Act (NFA) includes bump-stock-type devices, i.e., devices that allow a semiautomatic firearm to shoot more than one shot with a single pull of the trigger by harnessing the recoil energy of the semiautomatic firearm to which it is affixed so that the trigger resets and continues firing without additional physical manipulation of the trigger by the shooter... "


Bump Stocks | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives



Are you sure you want to stick by your highly doubtful claim that you have 30 years experience in prosecution? Because it's looking less plausible by the post.

 

[TurtleDude]

I quoted the ATF web page which says it regards bump stocks as automatic firearms under FEDERAL law...as do the DOJ


Which you said they do not. Now you refuse to admit you're wrong and scramble to post some outdated data from a dubious web page.




Technically no. It does, however, make it capable of automatic fire though and consequently is regarded as a machine gun by the ATF and DOJ

Which you FALSELY said was not the case





You are grasping at STRAWS

The Date on your simple web site is Feb 21st 2018


Here's the ATF web page again (which is way more of an official site than your Fortune web page):

"The Final Rule
The rule will go into effect March 26, 2019; 90 days from the date of publication in the Federal Register.

The final rule clarifies that the definition of “machinegun” in the Gun Control Act (GCA) and National Firearms Act (NFA) includes bump-stock-type devices, i.e., devices that allow a semiautomatic firearm to shoot more than one shot with a single pull of the trigger by harnessing the recoil energy of the semiautomatic firearm to which it is affixed so that the trigger resets and continues firing without additional physical manipulation of the trigger by the shooter... "


Bump Stocks | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives



Are you sure you want to stick by your highly doubtful claim that you have 30 years experience in prosecution? Because it's looking less plausible by the post.

The ATF changed the definition to allow the ban. Period.

ATF Issues Rule Banning Bump Stocks - AAF



Oddly, however, between 2008 and 2017, ATF assessed other bump stock devices and issued letter rulings allowing their use. ATF based their allowance on the definition of “automatic.” ATF ruled that enabling a firearm to shoot multiple rounds with a single trigger pull by “harnessing a combination of the recoil (energy) and the maintenance of pressure by the shooter” (on the front of the weapon with the non-trigger hand) – rather than through a spring action like the Akins Accelerator – meant the weapon did not shoot automatically.

The October 1, 2017 shooting at a Las Vegas concert that killed 58 people and injured more than 800 was perpetrated by an individual using a bump stock device. This event led to public pressure on regulators, among others, to curb or ban their use.

 

[Rich2018]

The ATF changed the definition to allow the ban. Period.

And to meet federal law

YOU claim that the ATF do not classify butt stocks as machine guns or automatic fire weapons - when the actually do.

..between 2008 and 2017, ATF assessed other bump stock devices and issued letter rulings...

That were subsequently changed in a change the seemingly you were unaware of and consequently you made a series of posts that were embarrassingly wrong.

...the October 1, 2017 shooting at a Las Vegas concert...led to public pressure on regulators, among others, to curb or ban their use.

Yes

Hence the ATF definition that you were unaware of and your citing of a past definition in the current tense.

 

[TurtleDude]

And to meet federal law

YOU claim that the ATF do not classify butt stocks as machine guns or automatic fire weapons - when the actually do.




That were subsequently changed in a change the seemingly you were unaware of and consequently you made a series of posts that were embarrassingly wrong.




Yes

Hence the ATF definition that you were unaware of and your citing of a past definition in the current tense.

that is idiotic. The gun ban in 1986 only banned automatic weapons. Not crank fired weapons or the bump stocks. Pressure was put on the ATF so they changed their opinion. Cowardly

 

[TurtleDude]

Pressured by Trump, A.T.F. Revisits Bump Stock Rules - The New York Times

The regulation of bump stocks has strayed from that pattern. The bureau determined in 2010 that it could not regulate the devices because they could not be defined as machine guns, which are regulated under the National Firearms Act, the law that regulates firearms in the United States. To prohibit bump stocks, the agency had to contradict that earlier position, essentially saying the statute had not changed but could be read differently to include such a ban.

“There will be lawsuits because it looks like the agency has bowed to political pressure,” said Adam Winkler, a constitutional law professor at the University of California, Los Angeles.

 

[humbolt]

Thank God. I mean, I been holding my breath for so long - what comes after blue? Yeah, that. Blown.

 

[Rich2018]

...pressure was put on the ATF so they changed their opinion. Cowardly....

And yet you were so willing to invoke their classification

Now you've been informed it's the opposite that you erroneously thought (through poor or most likely no research) suddenly the ATF is not a sacred source of pertinent data, but is a "cowardly" organisation

...the regulation of bump stocks has strayed from that pattern. The bureau determined in 2010 that it could not regulate the devices because they could not be defined as machine guns, which are regulated under the National Firearms Act, the law that regulates firearms in the United States. To prohibit bump stocks, the agency had to contradict that earlier position, essentially saying the statute had not changed but could be read differently to include such a ban.

“There will be lawsuits because it looks like the agency has bowed to political pressure,” said Adam Winkler...

You just won't accept when you're wrong will you ?

Give up your pathetic internet searches for a shred of a straw to cling on to to save face, and accept that the agency that YOU quoted as proof backs the opposite of your claim.

 

[TurtleDude]

And yet you were so willing to invoke their classification

Now you've been informed it's the opposite that you erroneously thought (through poor or most likely no research) suddenly the ATF is not a sacred source of pertinent data, but is a "cowardly" organisation






You just won't accept when you're wrong will you ?

Give up your pathetic internet searches for a shred of a straw to cling on to to save face, and accept that the agency that YOU quoted as proof backs the opposite of your claim.

no one considered them "machine guns" until Las Vegas. How did the definition change when the law didn't

 

[Rich2018]

no one considered them "machine guns" until Las Vegas. How did the definition change when the law didn't

Ask them.

The ATF cite DOJ classification.