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You don't even understand patriotism...

Actually, the right to self determination is clearly outlined as a fundamental human right in the Declaration of Independence. The South was well within its rights. And if you really think the War of Aggression against the South was fought over the South being pro slavery and the North being against slavery, then you need to study and explain the Corwin Amendment passed by the 36th Congress on March 2, 1861, Of course you will not be able to....

Did the South reject the American flag and create their own? My criticism is not of the South necessarily. It's this outrage over something that half of White America did to a far worse degree. Yet when Blacks protest against what they feel is injustice, they're labelled unpatriotic. It doesn't make much sense.

I makes no sense for Trump to defend Robert E. Lee's statue yet attack Kaepernick. Kaepernick doesn't want to secede. He didn't kill Americans during his struggle.
 
Did the South reject the American flag and create their own? My criticism is not of the South necessarily. It's this outrage over something that half of White America did to a far worse degree. Yet when Blacks protest against what they feel is injustice, they're labelled unpatriotic. It doesn't make much sense.

I makes no sense for Trump to defend Robert E. Lee's statue yet attack Kaepernick. Kaepernick doesn't want to secede. He didn't kill Americans during his struggle.

I totally support Kaepernick, he sacrificed his career to bring attention to a problem that our government completely ignores.
The entire purpose of government is to protect the rights of its citizens and the foremost right anyone has is the right to life.

When the US is gunning down more than a thousand of its Citizens a year, and in all of Europe that number is low double digits, there is something seriously wrong going on here....
 
It has EVERYTHING to do with free speech and freedom to protest. Your job can no more force you to stand and salute the flag or the anthem than they can force you to pray. You do not lose your basic rights because you are working. If they try to fire you for refusing to partake in a political show, you can sue the holy sh^t out of them and they will not have a foot to stand on.

If it's part of your job to partake in a political show for 30 seconds... you do that job... or, you don't and get fired for it. It is YOUR choice. You won't be punished for it, other than you don't get to work for the place you don't want to do all the guidelines.

Let's say I put in a offer on craigslist to hire someone to pledge the allegence for 8 hours every day.... for 30 dollars an hour... and someone takes up on that job offer....

then they decide to not pledge the allegiance... they are not doing the job, and will be fired...but according your your logic, I cannot fire the person at all!!!! I also can't fire a person for telling my customers that they disagree with their political opinions. As an employer, you can deem what is appropriate for your employee while on the job. It is in the nfl contract to pledge the allegiance during the anthem.
 
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I totally support Kaepernick, he sacrificed his career to bring attention to a problem that our government completely ignores.
The entire purpose of government is to protect the rights of its citizens and the foremost right anyone has is the right to life.

When the US is gunning down more than a thousand of its Citizens a year, and in all of Europe that number is low double digits, there is something seriously wrong going on here....

Or when the land of freedom has more incarcerated citizens than any other nation. Yet these patriots are throwing fits about a symbol but don't ask why we have a for profit prison industry.
 
If it's part of your job to partake in a political show for 30 seconds... you do that job... or, you don't and get fired for it. It is YOUR choice. You won't be punished for it, other than you don't get to work for the place you don't want to do all the guidelines.

Let's say I put in a offer on craigslist to hire someone to pledge the allegence for 8 hours every day.... for 30 dollars an hour... and someone takes up on that job offer....

then they decide to not pledge the allegiance... they are not doing the job, and will be fired...but according your your logic, I cannot fire the person at all!!!! It is in the nfl contract to pledge the allegiance during the anthem.

Aren't libertarians supposed to be against coercion? Please remove that "Libertarian" label from you profile.

Maybe your post is genuinely libertarian. Anti government tyranny. Pro corporate tyranny. Yep, I take that back. You're a libertarian.
 
Aren't libertarians supposed to be against coercion? Please remove that "Libertarian" label from you profile.

Maybe your post is genuinely libertarian. Anti government tyranny. Pro corporate tyranny. Yep, I take that back. You're a libertarian.

People can hire you for whatever reason you agree to... if you no longer agree with their practices... you can leave.

Has absolutely nothing to do with the government or freedom of speech.
 
People can hire you for whatever reason you agree to... if you no longer agree with their practices... you can leave.

Has absolutely nothing to do with the government or freedom of speech.

I understand. You support corporate tyranny. You believe you have to do whatever your corporate slave master asks because feeding your family is optional.

I wonder if you even know the horrific story of U.S. Radium.
 
The constitutional right does not protect you from being fired, fined suspended, etc. for protesting at your job. So no one rights are being violated. Also the NBA forces all players to stand during the anthem and no one is claiming that they are denying rights to their players.

That's correct but missing the point IMO. When POTUS goes on Twitter and national TV and effectively demands that the NFL fire protesters, it's impossible to conclude he has any ACTUAL respect for the 1A right to protest. He's saying, "Sure, you CAN protest, but the head of the government of the U.S.A. will petition your employer by name to fire you!" It's wildly inappropriate in almost all cases, but especially so here because the players are engaging in entirely peaceful and actually respectful protest - kneeling. And what Trump is doing is something like the old mob bit - "Nice business you got there NFL - shame if something happened to it because you're not firing players who exercise their 1A right to protest....."

In other words, there is a world of difference between the NFL as an employer firing employees who violate the required standards of conduct, and the POTUS going national all but demanding the NFL fire those guys. The former is fine, assuming the contracts allow for it, etc. but the latter is Trump if not violating the letter of the 1A is spitting with utter contempt on the principle behind the 1A, which is one essential key to being a free people is the right to protest what we see are injustices without fear of government retaliation.
 
I can not believe you actually think that... This has nothing to do with free speech or freedom to protest.

They are protesting at their JOB!!! And Trump isn't suggesting the government to force the nfl to do something, the government can't do ANYTHING... but the NFL CAN.

A business can fire you for singing the mein kampf in gregorian chant all day at work... a business can fire you for swearing at a customer, arguing with a customer, for yelling for no reason , it can fire you for demonstrating your political opinions at work or anything that you say that they deem harmful to the business.

Putting pressure and being critical on a business's employees conduct and calling for them to do something about it is not against the first amendment.

If it's the POTUS putting the "pressure" on, he is clearly and obviously crapping all over the principle behind the 1A.

Just change the facts a little - say the business is Boeing with a $billion in contracts with the U.S. government. If the POTUS says, effectively, on national TV and on Twitter to 10s of millions of people, "Fire those people peacefully protesting" even if he has no authority to actually fire them, he's using the massive leverage of the government to get them fired. The distinction in principle as I see it barely exists. I don't know how that plays out in court, but you cannot argue Trump's act would be consistent with the intent of the 1A.

The NFL has (AFAIK) no government contracts (any more...) but it relies on its fans and POTUS is using his massive bully pulpit to steer fans away from the NFL. It is just incredibly inappropriate because what he's doing is intended by Trump to do the same thing as threatening a contract with the U.S. government - get people, these players peacefully protesting, to act like HE wants, step in line and salute the flag, or else he WILL harm your business. It's what a dictators would do.
 
How do you respect a symbol of freedom by denying freedom itself?

That is the basic question behind the entire NFL / National anthem idiocy.

We have people who are insisting others be stripped of their right as Citizens to decent and to protest the actions of government because it is disrespectful of a symbol of that right.

I have supported some of the positions of Trump, but this one shows he does not have the slightest understanding of the relationship between government and the Citizens, and brings into question his fitness to hold office.

The fact is that the propaganda that we are subjected to during sporting events has no place in that venue to begin with. It is only there to allow government to claim some sort of legitimacy in its actions despite the fact that much of the public vehemently opposes much of the governments policies.

The real fear is that the rest of the world will see that the American people do not support the policies of government and the government will no longer be able to claim the legitimacy they lost long ago.

The issue we are faced with at present though, is what is it in America that we truly value? Is it the symbols like the anthem, and the flag that are most important? Or is it the actual freedoms those symbols represent and that we suppress on a daily basis?

It seems like we have our priorities badly confused.

Do employeers have to rights to fire people because of what they do with their freedoms?
Let me ask that another way, do employeers have the right to fire people for bad publicity and hurting their product?
The answer here is yes. So every team owner is within their right to kick these guys off their team. If they so choose to. And everyone else is with in their rights to protest and chant to push the teams owners to do such a thing.
 
You have it all wrong. People are angry that these NFL players are bringing their politics to work and holding millions hostage as they engage in symbolism that many millions find offensive. If you don't understand that and think THEY have the right to be offended, your argument rings quite hollow.

Except we're really not talking about "people" in general but the POTUS. People can get angry, boycott, turn off the TV, burn their jerseys, whatever. All that's fine! NFL is entertainment and if people are no longer entertained, they find another outlet. GREAT! I won't ever feel sorry for a bunch of government teat sucking billionaire owners. F em. And if the players have agreed through the union to stand during the national anthem, and they do not do that, then obviously the NFL can take appropriate action up to and including firing them if that's allowed under the rules!

But POTUS really shouldn't be on national TV telling those owners to fire players engaging in PEACEFUL protest. If you believe in the principle of the 1A, then surely you can agree that Trump is stepping right up to the line of violating the actual letter of the law and is definitely IMO trashing the principle behind it. He IS the government, there is no individual in government with more power than POTUS, and he is saying to the citizens, "Sure, you can protest, but if I as leader of this government, POTUS, leader of the free world, do not like your cause or how you express your concerns, I will go national and try to get YOU FIRED!"

That's a serious thing! POTUS has a big pulpit, and can move people. He also controls at least $100s of billions in disbursements per year, at least in part. At what point does firing protesters (the POTUS does not LIKE and who POTUS says should be fired, on national TV) become a condition of doing business with the U.S. government? And if firing protesters Trump does not LIKE is a condition, or businesses perceive it as a condition or even POSSIBLE condition, then the 1A is if not violated, worthless in principle.
 
How do you respect a symbol of freedom by denying freedom itself?

That is the basic question behind the entire NFL / National anthem idiocy.

We have people who are insisting others be stripped of their right as Citizens to decent and to protest the actions of government because it is disrespectful of a symbol of that right.

I have supported some of the positions of Trump, but this one shows he does not have the slightest understanding of the relationship between government and the Citizens, and brings into question his fitness to hold office.

The fact is that the propaganda that we are subjected to during sporting events has no place in that venue to begin with. It is only there to allow government to claim some sort of legitimacy in its actions despite the fact that much of the public vehemently opposes much of the governments policies.

The real fear is that the rest of the world will see that the American people do not support the policies of government and the government will no longer be able to claim the legitimacy they lost long ago.

The issue we are faced with at present though, is what is it in America that we truly value? Is it the symbols like the anthem, and the flag that are most important? Or is it the actual freedoms those symbols represent and that we suppress on a daily basis?

It seems like we have our priorities badly confused.


That's not what Constitutional Freedom of Speech in America means. "Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences," as the left parrot out so often when some one says something they don't like a petition boycotts of business or players being fired.

In fact that phrase is right. In terms of what Freedom of Speech means legally in the United States. Does any American know what that means? It means something pretty simple.

It means this: city, state, and federal authorities can not arrest you (in a few cases they can such as falsely screaming fire in a crowded theater) for expressing your self.

That does not mean people can not boycott you or call for you to get fired.

Trump intervened less in Freedom of Speech than President Obama and Hillary Clinton did when they applied Federal pressure and personally called on that small time Protestant Preacher to not burn the Koran. Stating "America is about respecting all religions." I paraphrase.

Hillary said that as well but just years prior to that she stood outdoors in New York City to cheering crowds celebrating her support that a publicly funded art museum in New York City ought continue forward exhibiting blasphemous art work of the Virgin Mary that millions of Christians found offensive. She did not evoke the "America is about respect for all religions." No, she evoke the "America is about freedom of speech!"




Now, you might talk most American Catholics into this liberal equivalent of you and your wife sit at a table, you slap the Catholic's wife across the face and tell him he can never do the same to yours and he obeys. And then you repeat it for years and all of you keep going out like best friends because "We are Americans and must remain united," blah, blah. But you're not suckering me into that jive. I'm not subscribing to this you limit the rule box I can operate in but you give yourself and your friends wide, wide, wide, enormous latitude, switching rules and evoking contradictory "values" as you see fit.





 
How do you respect a symbol of freedom by denying freedom itself?

That is the basic question behind the entire NFL / National anthem idiocy.

We have people who are insisting others be stripped of their right as Citizens to decent and to protest the actions of government because it is disrespectful of a symbol of that right.

I have supported some of the positions of Trump, but this one shows he does not have the slightest understanding of the relationship between government and the Citizens, and brings into question his fitness to hold office.

The fact is that the propaganda that we are subjected to during sporting events has no place in that venue to begin with. It is only there to allow government to claim some sort of legitimacy in its actions despite the fact that much of the public vehemently opposes much of the governments policies.

The real fear is that the rest of the world will see that the American people do not support the policies of government and the government will no longer be able to claim the legitimacy they lost long ago.

The issue we are faced with at present though, is what is it in America that we truly value? Is it the symbols like the anthem, and the flag that are most important? Or is it the actual freedoms those symbols represent and that we suppress on a daily basis?

It seems like we have our priorities badly confused.

Considering that you claimed the ****ing KKK was a self defense force, you have literally zero crediblity on this or any other subject.
 
Today, the government actually pays sports teams for their artificial support of government.... https://townhall.com/tipsheet/timothymeads/2017/09/24/draft-n2385792

Is that pathetic or what? Your tax money is being given to rich bastards in the professional sports community who are way over paid to begin with to put on a show that they support a corrupt government in hopes it will influence the idiot masses to go along....
You claimed the Klan was a "self defense force" and that the north was encouraging fictional roving gangs of former slaves to murder whites. You can't call anyone else an idiot; it'd be like the pot calling the kettle black.
 
That's correct but missing the point IMO. When POTUS goes on Twitter and national TV and effectively demands that the NFL fire protesters, it's impossible to conclude he has any ACTUAL respect for the 1A right to protest. He's saying, "Sure, you CAN protest, but the head of the government of the U.S.A. will petition your employer by name to fire you!" It's wildly inappropriate in almost all cases, but especially so here because the players are engaging in entirely peaceful and actually respectful protest - kneeling. And what Trump is doing is something like the old mob bit - "Nice business you got there NFL - shame if something happened to it because you're not firing players who exercise their 1A right to protest....."

In other words, there is a world of difference between the NFL as an employer firing employees who violate the required standards of conduct, and the POTUS going national all but demanding the NFL fire those guys. The former is fine, assuming the contracts allow for it, etc. but the latter is Trump if not violating the letter of the 1A is spitting with utter contempt on the principle behind the 1A, which is one essential key to being a free people is the right to protest what we see are injustices without fear of government retaliation.

How is that any different than some random internet mob doing the same thing, which is what happened to the protesters at Charlottesville. Does a person lose their 1st amendment right to criticize if they become the POTUS, what about a congressman or senator are they allowed to criticize?

Im not sure I agree with either being fired although the NFL situation is slightly different since they are in the context of being at work.
 
Today, the government actually pays sports teams for their artificial support of government.... https://townhall.com/tipsheet/timothymeads/2017/09/24/draft-n2385792

Is that pathetic or what? Your tax money is being given to rich bastards in the professional sports community who are way over paid to begin with to put on a show that they support a corrupt government in hopes it will influence the idiot masses to go along....

I think polarization in politics has divided this country more today than at anytime in the past I have been alive. Perhaps since the civil war. It has become the old divide and conquer strategy for both parties. Politics, elections used to be about ideas, visions, solutions, today it has become mostly personal attacks against each other. The idea is to get the voter to hate the other guy more than they hate you. This constant painting your political opponents as evil finally has the results of people actually believing that one party or the other, president, elected official actually are evil. That the other party is out to destroy America.

As for buying these commercials during football, baseball games and other sporting events by the government, that has been going on for quite a long time. With the beginning of the all volunteer military, running government paid for, sponsored recruiting ads became normal. Patriotic ads has been run on TV every so often as far back as I can remember, on the radio before that and in movie theaters before the invention of TV. That in itself is nothing new.

There was a mild whoopie do when it was discovered a couple of years back that the government was paying certain baseball teams to honor soldiers before the game who returned from Iraq or Afghanistan. That was a two or three day story and then disappeared. I think that was stopped once it became public. But there is nothing new here.
 
Sure they are, we are hearing the President demand people be fired for doing their duty as citizens to stand for the principals this country was founded on. That is a flagrant attempt to strip them of their rights and their freedoms.

Only a small group actually endorse the players being fired. Like some here, he likes hyperbole, but words matter so I disagree with him on this and other comments he spews without thought.
 
You would get it if Obama was telling a bakery owner to fire an employee for not baking a gay wedding cake.

He has in a round about way. Perhaps not for the cake issue, but the premise was similar.
 
How is that any different than some random internet mob doing the same thing, which is what happened to the protesters at Charlottesville. Does a person lose their 1st amendment right to criticize if they become the POTUS, what about a congressman or senator are they allowed to criticize?

The difference between the public and Trump is POTUS is the government and the principle behind the 1A is we can protest without fear of retribution by government. And he's not just criticizing - he's telling/demanding the NFL to fire them. So in Trump's world, sure, you can protest but the government through Trump will go on national TV and call out your employer by name and appeal to the public and organize support for that employer to fire anyone who behaves in a way the government through Trump does not approve.

All it would take is Trump saying, "Fire them or else..... e.g. I'll cancel your contract with the DoD" and he's stepped over the line into likely illegality. As is he's stepped right up to the line, and in the process spitting on the principle that we should be able to protest without being punished by government.
 
I would disagree with it just as I disagree with what Trump said but to claim that because some one in public office spoke about the situation that it somehow then constitutes a breach of the 1st amendment is absurd.

What's absurd is your attempt to link Don's blathering to a breach of the 1st amendment.
 
Well the protest was started by a guy just trying to get laid. That may be how all conflict has begun since the beginning of time.

All you've revealed here is you own code of ethics.
 
We've not had a jackass like this before have we, no precedent.

So you got nuthin'.

Plenty of of precedents of Presidents stating unpopular opinions, or popular opinions, including the previous one.
 
The taking a knee thing is important for the economy. Chiropractors need the business.
 
So you got nuthin'.

Plenty of of precedents of Presidents stating unpopular opinions, or popular opinions, including the previous one.

The precedent of a president calling for the firing of private sector employees was the point wasn't it.
 
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