Work life in Europe

[ataraxia]

That is a fair point. But once you graduate from that "free" college, you pay back that tuition in much higher taxes, reducing its overall value to you and leveling the outcome.

I don't know about that. I think there are many fields where employers, and consumers, want to see that you have completed a formal, supervised program of training: being a doctor, an accountant, an engineer, a judge, etc...

Getting that degree matters for a career in many such things.

 

[Helix]

OMFG, is there anything at all you like about America?

Yes. The interstate highway system is pretty nifty. I also enjoy voting against right wing asshole candidates.

 

[American]

Yes. The interstate highway system is pretty nifty. I also enjoy voting against right wing asshole candidates.

That's a pretty good indication about how much you hate things here. Wow, just wow.

 

[Carjosse]

Well, that's your opinion. Personally I get a better outcome with equality of opportunity. So will my kids. Most people in the US prefer it that way too.

That is true equality of opportunity though, everyone gets the same opportunity. The US does not have equality of opportunity. That is simply not happening in the US where your opportunities are largely determined by where your parents live and how much money they have.

 

[Helix]

That's a pretty good indication about how much you hate things here. Wow, just wow.

Thanks for the amateur analysis. However, when I want to know how I feel about my country, I generally consult myself first.

 

[American]

Thanks for the amateur analysis. However, when I want to know how I feel about my country, I generally consult myself first.

That's why I came out and asked you plainly, and your answer contained virtually nothing.

 

[Helix]

That's why I came out and asked you plainly, and your answer contained virtually nothing.

You're mistaking my not giving much of a **** about your question with me only liking two things about America. An understandable mistake, I suppose. Glad that we could clear it up, though.

 

[Rogue Valley]

You're mistaking my not giving much of a **** about your question with me only liking two things about America. An understandable mistake, I suppose. Glad that we could clear it up, though.

Some folks just can't graciously take a hint :2razz:

 

[HumblePi]

The guy busting his ass, the person who didn't get a better paying job because dad wanted some extra cash. It all adds up. While very un-PC, if women had not entered the workforce, men would be making much more; if illegals weren't here, other people would be getting paid much more to do that work. Not saying it should be one way or the other. Just pointing out that this is how supply and demand works even in labor and particular at the no-skill/low-skill levels.

So you're saying it's all the fault of women and illegals, right? The women's suffragette movement happened in the 1920's, women are allowed to vote AND work.

 

[WCH]

Even if it's less, they're not dealing with the stress of what happens to their healthcare should they find themselves out of work; or how they're going to pay for their children's college. It's a matter of what a society chooses to make easier for itself.

And somebody has to pay for it. It encourages not working.

 

[WCH]

but is it equal opportunity if you have to pay a lot for education? Your opportunities depend on your parents incomes.

In Europe education is mostly free - so a poor child has similar chances than a rich one ;o)

What´s far better than here in the US is personal freedom I think - hell I´m not alowed to build a cabin in my own woods here - everything is ruled.

Neither healthcare nor education is free in Europe. The costs are absorbed by society. [those able to pay]

When you let the government control all those "freebies", you give up freedoms.

 

[eman623]

No it just means that your children can then do the same, as well spend far less on healthcare, have a more generous pension when you actually retire at an age you are supposed to, can take far more cost effective public transportation to work, etc.

Sure taxes are higher but you also get a lot more in return and overall is much more cost effective for society while having better outcomes.

My kids (one kid actually) is already doing the same as me. Why would she not?

 

[eman623]

I don't know about that. I think there are many fields where employers, and consumers, want to see that you have completed a formal, supervised program of training: being a doctor, an accountant, an engineer, a judge, etc...

Getting that degree matters for a career in many such things.

Not that many really. A few highly specialized jobs. And even then, they usually have their own certification process like the bar exam.

 

[eman623]

That is true equality of opportunity though, everyone gets the same opportunity. The US does not have equality of opportunity. That is simply not happening in the US where your opportunities are largely determined by where your parents live and how much money they have.

And Europe doesn't have true equality of outcome. But that's the general idea of the US vs European societies.

 

[PeteEU]

Speak for yourself. I live the American dream. I have a high paying high tech job in Silicon Valley with loads of bennies including great healthcare, 5 weeks of vacation and I don't have to pay European levels of taxation to get this.

And no, I wasn't given any of this. I grew up poor lower-middle class and neither of my parents went to college.

Congrats you were one of the few that managed it.

 

[PeteEU]

Thus my comment about why the stats are so inconsistent.

I do know that if college is free, then it will be rationed.

Eh? Getting into college is based on your grades, not your daddy's money.

OTOH if you pay for it with your own money, then it will be available to anyone who can afford it - which is just about anyone given the easy access to student loans we have in the US now.

HAHAHAHAH now that is hilarious comment. If there is any rationing then it is in the US.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

I didn't know that you guys work in US often without employment contracts. In my bubble I was thinking it's just impossible. My guess is that some people in US may think that people in Europe are lazy (paid & long vacations), but I in my eyes it's good and needed to relax from work. Here in Finland 5 weeks paid vacation is normal and some people have even more (you get more days by working longer in same place).

Do you think that people in Europe are lazy because of longer vacations?

No, the way people in Europe work and live is the way I was taught to work and live while growing up in the USA under the tail end of Roosevelt's New Deal programs in the 1950's and 1960's. And of course, by the time I had entered into a permanent career in film and television, all of that had begun to change.
I matured in my career skills during the Reagan 1980's and watched as all the values I was taught were gradually portrayed as evil and unamerican.
Reagan's Republicans attacked union workers as greedy and unpatriotic, they attacked overtime, vacations and benefits as coddling and anti-business, as if big business was somehow wounded and suffering.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Speak for yourself. I live the American dream. I have a high paying high tech job in Silicon Valley with loads of bennies including great healthcare, 5 weeks of vacation and I don't have to pay European levels of taxation to get this.

And no, I wasn't given any of this. I grew up poor lower-middle class and neither of my parents went to college.

Great healthcare? Are you single, mid-twenties to early thirties, no significant health challenges?
Sorry but, if that is the case, you're the WET DREAM of every health insurance company in the country, because you barely ever USE your health insurance.
Come see me in twenty years when you start to have kids, some with health issues or a wife who is sick, or you begin to need healthcare yourself in a real way, when the deductibles and premium hikes start to pile up.

By the way, congratulations on the high tech job in Silicon Valley. How's that commute? Can you afford to live IN Silicon Valley, where the average crackerbox suburban 3BR 2BA 1600 SF home is a cool million or more?

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

My kids (one kid actually) is already doing the same as me. Why would she not?

That is wonderful news, and the fact that you're relatively lucky does not serve as an indicator of the overall picture in this country.
That said, God's blessings on you and your lucky kid, who I am sure makes a lot of his or her own luck, as I am sure you do too.

But never forget that part of it is due to good luck on the part of both of you. You are both blessed with good health.
If everyone had that kind of situation, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

America's healthcare problems aren't concentrated in the remaining sliver of America's affluent upper middle class, it is concentrated in the blue collar class, the part that used to work all the factory jobs, who used to make it on a high school diploma, who used to make things with their hands.

 

[ElChupacabra]

And somebody has to pay for it. It encourages not working.

Does it? I don't recall Europe being a place filled with people who opt not to work; they're quite productive actually. It's just a difference in philosophies between those who want to work together to improve their fellow citizens' odds of success versus the idea that competition alone will produce the best.

 

[WCH]

Does it? I don't recall Europe being a place filled with people who opt not to work; they're quite productive actually. It's just a difference in philosophies between those who want to work together to improve their fellow citizens' odds of success versus the idea that competition alone will produce the best.

Doesn't appear to be working. Oh, who will pay for all the free ****?

• EU: unemployment rate 2019 by country | Statista

 

[Drawdown]

So you're saying it's all the fault of women and illegals, right? The women's suffragette movement happened in the 1920's, women are allowed to vote AND work.

I am not saying its anybody's fault. I am saying millions of little decisions have big cumulative consequences.

 

[ElChupacabra]

Doesn't appear to be working. Oh, who will pay for all the free ****?

• EU: unemployment rate 2019 by country | Statista

The rates clearly vary by country, and the ones with the stronger recoveries after 2008 have relatively low unemployment rates and still have tax funded healthcare and education.

This whole "who will pay for all the free stuff?" always cracks me up because it's as if we aren't paying for the consequences of these issues over here. The question is how we pay for it; whether it's to improve the potential outcomes for individuals or pay for managing the negative effects of not doing so.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

I didn't know that you guys work in US often without employment contracts. In my bubble I was thinking it's just impossible. My guess is that some people in US may think that people in Europe are lazy (paid & long vacations), but I in my eyes it's good and needed to relax from work. Here in Finland 5 weeks paid vacation is normal and some people have even more (you get more days by working longer in same place).

Do you think that people in Europe are lazy because of longer vacations?

In Germany I work as an engineer and the quality of life is absolutely amazing. 40 hour work week with rare overtime, 6.5 weeks paid vacation plus about 12 paid holidays. Paternity leave when I have a kid, flexible work hours, dirt cheap healthcare, and my bachelor and masters degrees cost me about a thousand Euro total. I even ride my mountain bike to work some days.

If you value quality of life over raw numbers, Europe is definitely the way to go.

 

[german hick]

plus about 12 paid holidays.

if you live in Bavaria - up to the north it gets a little less ;o)