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Why we have an electoral college [W:196]

*such a liar* Everyone can read the record of your words here.

Why pretend otherwise?

now you move over to calling me words....well i guess i am not going to this much much much more errors am i ?

i already admitted two errors, which you claim there is more, but will not post the much much more and you will not admit you made gave incorrect info.
 
Re: Why we have an electoral college

TRANSLATION: there can be direct democracy inside of representative democracy

Every time you say TRANSLATION I know the locomotive is about to go off the rails and there will be a tie up for days.

Why are you ignoring this conclusion of the the article by the author you brought up in the first place?

There are some ambiguity and controversy as to whether procedures with a focus on directly electing or recalling holders of public office (executive positions, legislators) may be meaningfully included in the concept of direct democracy. These procedures refer, in fact, to the institutional system of representative democracy and its typical processes and, therefore, are not at the core of debates on direct democracy.

The ambiguity and controversy (and yes I know the definitions for those terms and they are not in dispute) refer to your cited previous statement about SOMETIMES. The author then goes on to say that despite the controversy it is FACT that they are NOT at the core of debates on direct democracy.

Do you understand that?
 
now you move over to calling me words....well i guess i am not going to this much much much more errors am i ?

i already admitted two errors, which you claim there is more, but will not post the much much more and you will not admit you made gave incorrect info.

You have not proven me wrong once. You LIE. Everyone reading the conversation can see that. Good day, Chinaman,
 
Re: Why we have an electoral college

Every time you say TRANSLATION I know the locomotive is about to go off the rails and there will be a tie up for days.

Why are you ignoring this conclusion of the the article by the author you brought up in the first place?



The ambiguity and controversy (and yes I know the definitions for those terms and they are not in dispute) refer to your cited previous statement about SOMETIMES. The author then goes on to say that despite the controversy it is FACT that they are NOT at the core of debates on direct democracy.

Do you understand that?

what is direct vote of the people ?
 
Re: Why we have an electoral college

There is a vote of the people. Is that what you are referring to?

what is it representative democracy or direct democracy if the people direct vote for something like referendum/ candidate/initiative?
 
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You have not proven me wrong once. You LIE. Everyone reading the conversation can see that. Good day, Chinaman,

again i told you i made 2 errors

one when you produced that some senators had been appointed more then 2 consecutive times....my error

one then i incorrectly stated FDR was elected 3 times...my error

you claimed i made much much more errors, which i asked you to produce them....you refuse to do so

i owed up to my errors, which you do not acknowledge and still you tell me i lied.

i on the other hand have stated some of your info in not correct, which you deny.
 
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Re: Why we have an electoral college [W:196] RESPONSE PART II

We disagree that the Constitution establishes a specific goal for the Electoral College's existence. The one thing that is clear is that there is no explanation of "why" the electoral college is in place present in the constitution, as opposed to having the election be a direct democracy, for example. The only thing it describes is the "what" the electoral college will do and the "how" it is to be selected. It is merely implied by the fact that the election of president is not done via direct democracy, but instead it is done by this select body of individuals.

You agree that the Electoral College exists because the founders did not want the president chosen by direct democracy.

From there, the question "Why didn't the founders want the president chosen by direct democracy?"

The answer to that question, which is what Hamilton describes in federalist 68 but is nowhere to be found in the Constitution itself, are the ends toward which the effort of creating the electoral college was directed.

In other words, the answer to the "why do we have an Electoral College anyway" question is the goal of the Electoral College.

Unfortunately, the Constitution does not answer that question. Federalist 68, however does it quite clearly and in such a way that a reasonable person living at the time of ratification could easily read the text of the Constitution and conclude that it was intended to achieve the goals described in Federalist 68.

This is evidenced by the fact that there was no disagreement with Federalist 68's claims about the electoral college.

From that position, I can easily conclude that the design found in the constitution, which you point out allows states to undermine that goal, is obviously flawed for exactly the reasons you describe: It allowed states free reign to undermine those goals.

But Hamilton knew the design of the Constitution afforded the States with the discretion of whether to seek Hamiltonian electors. Yet, Hamilton read and then signed the Constitution that created the design of permitting the States the discretion of choosing its kind of electors. Hard to reasonably conceive of a design flaw when Hamilton knew and was aware the design in the Constitution didn't necessarily result in his vision of electors.

A design flaw is one in which those making the design have the understanding, knowledge, intention, and purpose that the design will accomplish or achieve X. Here, Hamilton knew the Constitution's design didn't accomplish X, X=his kind of electors. He knew the design gave to the States the discretion to choose the kind of electors. This isn't an instance of Hamilton believing or thinking the design of the Constitution resulted in his kind of electors but instead Hamilton knew the States had the discretion of whether to choose his kind of electors.

On this basis, there isn't a design flaw.
 
Re: Why we have an electoral college

But if the law and legitimate authorities authorize the peoples will as in a free election results - how is it then MOB RULE?

Just wanted to chime in here, hope you don't mind. Democracy is mob rule because it neglects the rights of the minority, however "the minority" isn't limited to the shear number of people voting, it also includes regional interests where sparse populations are required. Farms and ranches, some of which are larger than eastern cities, are vital to the health of the world economy yet only require a very small population to operate. Under a popular vote they have no voice for their values, and no politician would have reason (electorally) to advocate for them. Remembering that the president's "bully pulpit" drives the agenda, minority laden regions need to be able to offer an additional political incentive to garner the minimum amount of attention.
 
Re: Why we have an electoral college

Just wanted to chime in here, hope you don't mind. Democracy is mob rule because it neglects the rights of the minority, however "the minority" isn't limited to the shear number of people voting, it also includes regional interests where sparse populations are required. Farms and ranches, some of which are larger than eastern cities, are vital to the health of the world economy yet only require a very small population to operate. Under a popular vote they have no voice for their values, and no politician would have reason (electorally) to advocate for them. Remembering that the president's "bully pulpit" drives the agenda, minority laden regions need to be able to offer an additional political incentive to garner the minimum amount of attention.

We have majority rule with Constitutional rights that protect the minority. So the term MOB RULE for regular elections is simply ridiculous.
 
Re: Why we have an electoral college

democracy is when the people are the dominate entity

And what does that mean?

if the people control the house, senate, and then the presidency then they are dominate and only their single interest is represetned in law making

They control the House and Senate in that they vote directly for their representatives. The presidency less so due to the EC.
 
Re: Why we have an electoral college

And what does that mean?

For democracy - it means when all officials are representatives of the people only.



They control the House and Senate in that they vote directly for their representatives. The presidency less so due to the EC.

in original constitutional law,a mixed government, the house is of the people, the senate is of the state governments and the EC is a combination of both the people and the states

each gets equal representation in the federal government.

the senate is no longer in the hands of the state governments and they have lost their representation in congress.
 
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Re: Why we have an electoral college

We have majority rule with Constitutional rights that protect the minority. So the term MOB RULE for regular elections is simply ridiculous.

They think their Constitutional rights will go down the drain if a particular position is decided by popular vote. Your nation also has 2 senate members per state regardless of population size. So all the populations in each state will have there voices heard from the members they elected into power.
 
Re: Why we have an electoral college

They think their Constitutional rights will go down the drain if a particular position is decided by popular vote. Your nation also has 2 senate members per state regardless of population size. So all the populations in each state will have there voices heard from the members they elected into power.

They think wrong.
 
Re: Why we have an electoral college

They think their Constitutional rights will go down the drain if a particular position is decided by popular vote. Your nation also has 2 senate members per state regardless of population size. So all the populations in each state will have there voices heard from the members they elected into power.

There is a history of rights "gone down the drain" by popular vote in regards to a "particular position." Did you mean to reference a factually accurate scenario and misuse those facts as misplaced derision?


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Re: Why we have an electoral college

We have majority rule with Constitutional rights that protect the minority. So the term MOB RULE for regular elections is simply ridiculous.

Actually it is quite accurate to describe modern elections. A mob is usually pictured as a large group of people who are joined in order to exercise their will by force, despite the fact they are usually extremely poorly informed and have little understanding of the issue and the ramifications.

Sounds like a modern election to me...
 
Re: Why we have an electoral college

There is a history of rights "gone down the drain" by popular vote in regards to a "particular position."
There is also a history of those rights being subsequently protected.

For example, California had a state referendum to block gay marriage in the state, meaning it was a popular vote that was supposed to have the same force as a law passed by the legislature. It was challenged in court, and struck down as a violation of rights.

The same type of laws were passed by legislatures -- and checked by the same process, namely judicial review.

While I do not promote that every law be subject to a public referendum, and I don't like some of the laws passed that way, I don't see any evidence that the process itself produces better or worse laws than those passed by elected legislators.
 
Re: Why we have an electoral college

There is also a history of those rights being subsequently protected.

For example, California had a state referendum to block gay marriage in the state, meaning it was a popular vote that was supposed to have the same force as a law passed by the legislature. It was challenged in court, and struck down as a violation of rights.

The same type of laws were passed by legislatures -- and checked by the same process, namely judicial review.

While I do not promote that every law be subject to a public referendum, and I don't like some of the laws passed that way, I don't see any evidence that the process itself produces better or worse laws than those passed by elected legislators.

This is edifying but not contrary to what I said and not directly germane to my comments.


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Re: Why we have an electoral college

Actually it is quite accurate to describe modern elections. A mob is usually pictured as a large group of people who are joined in order to exercise their will by force, despite the fact they are usually extremely poorly informed and have little understanding of the issue and the ramifications.

Sounds like a modern election to me...

The only people who use the term MOB RULE to describe the peaceful and normal results of elections are right wingers misusing the term.

mob rule
noun
control of a political situation by those outside the conventional or lawful realm, typically involving violence and intimidation.
Note that one cannot apply that definition to regular peaceful elections.
 
Re: Why we have an electoral college

Mentality between republic and democracy

Aristotle does not use the word democracy and republic interchangeably; neither does Socrates in Plato's Republic.

Aristotle defines a republic as the rule of law. "...it is preferable for the law to rule rather than any one of the citizens, and according to this same principle, even if it be better for certain men to govern, they must be appointed as guardians of the laws and in subordination to them;... the law shall govern seems to recommend that God and reason alone shall govern..." Thomas Jefferson beseeched his countrymen to "bind men down from mischief by the chains of the constitution".

A democracy's mentality is that the people are sovereign and have become a law unto themselves wherefore the phrase vox populi, vox dei. The mentality of Despotism, as it can be seen in the Asian kings of the Pharoahs, Babylonians and Persians, Alexander the Great, his successors and the Roman Emperors starting with Julius Caesar, is that the king or Emperor makes the law so he is God. For the Spartan mindset, the Law, the golden mean, is to rule not men collectively or singly as the Spartan King advises Xerxes at the Battle of Thermopylae, to wit, "The point is that although they're free, they're not entirely free; their master is the law, and they're far more afraid of this than your men are of you. At any rate, they do whatever the law commands...". A man's obedience, loyalty, and fidelity lie in the law and not in persons; the Spartan mindset being, "I'm obedient to the law but under no man".

Aristotle notices that a democracy puts the people above the law [a will of the people]: "men ambitious of office by acting as popular leaders bring things to the point of the people's being sovereign even over the laws."

When the law loses respect, Aristotle says in V vii 7 that "constitutional government turns into a democracy". And in that situation, Socrates, Plato and Aristotle fear the possibility that "Tyranny, then arises from no other form of government than democracy." Then, democracies are no more than ochlocracies. In more recent times, Huey Long said that when fascism came to the United States it would call itself "democracy".
 
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Re: Why we have an electoral college

What is a state

The Greeks defined differing governments by their dominant factor. Aristotle writes: "Now a constitution (Politeia) is the ordering of a state (Poleos) in respect of its various magistracies, and especially the magistracy that is supreme over all matters. For the government is everywhere supreme over the state and the constitution is the government. Our customary designation for a monarchy that aims at the common advantage is 'kingship'; for a government of more than one yet only a few 'aristocracy', ...while when the multitude govern the state with a view to the common advantage, it is called by the name common to all the forms of constitution, 'constitutional government'.

Where a government has only a king, the dominant factor, it is called a monarchy. Where a government has only a few nobles ruling, the dominant factor, it is called an aristocracy." Where the people are the dominant factor it is called a democracy.

The Greek word for State is "Poleos". It denotes "society" in general. Aristotle writes "A collection of persons all alike does not constitute a state". This Greek word, "Politeia" is then named for every government that includes numerous classes of people as citizens and a written law, a constitution, that defines and delegates rights and responsibilities of those classes. A republic is one that does not have a dominant factor".

Hence, the phrase "democratic republic" is an oxymoron. A democracy is when the people are dominant and a republic is mixed government wherein there is no dominant element. Therefore to say a "democratic republic" is an oxymoron. The confusion lies in that the word "republic" is synonymous with "constitution". For that reason, it is better to say "constitutional democracy" other than "democratic republic".


http://en.rightpedia.info/w/Classical_definition_of_republic
 
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federalist 48--An ELECTIVE DESPOTISM was not the government we fought for; but one which should not only be founded on free principles, but in which the powers of government should be so divided and balanced among several bodies of magistracy, as that no one could transcend their legal limits, without being effectually checked and restrained by the others.


Definition of ELECTIVE
1a : chosen or filled by popular election <an elective official>
b : of or relating to election
c : based on the right or principle of election

Despotism is a form of government in which a single entity rules with absolute power.

the founders state they did not fight a war to create a government of an elective despotism, a government of the people holding ALL absolute power, a will of the people
 
John Adams - No nation under Heaven ever was, now is, nor ever will be qualified for a Republican Government, unless you mean ... resulting from a Balance of three powers, the Monarchical, Aristocratical, and Democratical ... Americans are particularly unfit for any Republic but the Aristo-Democratical Monarchy.
 
John Adams - No nation under Heaven ever was, now is, nor ever will be qualified for a Republican Government, unless you mean ... resulting from a Balance of three powers, the Monarchical, Aristocratical, and Democratical ... Americans are particularly unfit for any Republic but the Aristo-Democratical Monarchy.

In those last four posts from you - which part is from the US Constitution?
 
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