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Why Registration Is Bad

roughdraft274 said:
You need to understand the kind of registry that I support as I stated a few posts back.

When you buy a gun, he gun store registers it to you. They can't sell it otherwise, just like a car. When you sell or give a gun to a buddy, you ensure the registry is updated. Like a notary or something.
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right.. its registered to me.. then I sell the gun to my buddy and forget to do the registration, or "well we meant to get it notarized but I forgot about it.. etc."...

Problem is.. there is no proof that the gun my buddy has.. IS FROM ME.. because the serial numbers are gone.

So I'm not suggesting that his house needs to be searched. We have reason to believe that the guy is a straw purchaser due to the amount of guns he's buying, the way he's buying them
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Except you have no proof of such and its not probably cause.

or you could get a warrant to search his property if needed
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Not on that you cannot.

Basically you are fishing. You have no proof that the gun in question.. even comes from him. And yet you are then going to search his house.? Constitutional problem.

And when you say search all other family and known associates,
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Whoa their cowboy.

This is what you said:

Or, you could check the gun purchases of all known associates of the criminal caught with a gun with a filed off serial number. If I'm his buddy and I just purchased 24 handguns just like the one he used, maybe you want to question me and ask to see those 24 guns. You could then arrest me if I don't have any of those 24 guns anymore because they are registered to me and I sold them.
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that's a search based simply on association.

But at no point am I wanting to go around and just search random peoples property just because they have a friend that might have committed a crime.
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See above. you go search the buddy because he bought firearms.. and there is no link between the firearm found and the this buddy.. because the serial number is filed off.

You don't really have to prove that the gun purchased is the same gun
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Yeah you do.. constitutionally you don't have the right to search a person for the "other 24 guns".. if you do not have probably cause.... which you don't have because the serial number is filed off.

It would be a crime just for the fact that the guy purchased 24 guns and doesn't have them anymore and has no record of legally selling them. He didn't update the registry. If he did it once, he'd likely get a slap on the wrist. If he did it with 20 guns, then I'd suggest making an example out of him
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.

Which you did unconstitutionally because you searched (demanding to produce the other guns is a search)... without a clear link that a crime was committed.
 
jaeger19 said:
It can't be registered to a new owner.. UNTIL ITS SOLD!.

Selling it has to come before the registration.
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It can be required to happen at the same time
 
vegas giants said:
The existing law is what? Its legal to sell guns to anyone you want now in a private sale. You do not need to ask or find out if they are criminals
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However once you do know, you cannot knowingly sell to felons or face felony charges.
 
CLAX1911 said:
or what you're doing is denial. You can't tell me a legitimate purpose of registration.

no it's because you make up nonsense that you have no integrity. Local serial numbers where did you come up with this crap?



And you resort to boo-hooing when you can't defend the nonsense that you're told to believe. It's like you're in a cult.
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I've already explained registration. As for making it up?

This Is How The Gun Industry Funds The NRA - Business Insider

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/nra-guns-second-amendment-106856

Read - think - and then post dude.

You can apologize now.
 
jet57 said:
I've already explained registration.
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Yes recovery of stolen fire arms. But that's not necessary. There are serial numbers on fire arms they are unique. Thus of you know the serial number of your fire arm of out turns up it can be recovered.
As for making it up?

This Is How The Gun Industry Funds The NRA - Business Insider

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/nra-guns-second-amendment-106856

Read - think - and then post dude.

You can apologize now.
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One link is caterwalling about gun manufactures finding the NRA. Oh dear Lord save us all from evil corporations funding our citizen based organizations from defending the interest of our citizens.

The other link is some fiction about NRA being a shadow government that can rewrite the constitution at its whim.

You haven't made a valid argument for registration. Your huey about local serial numbers is laughable. And your conspiracy theories are pathetic.
 
jaeger19 said:
that's a search based simply on association.
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You are just being too emotional and argumentative about it and I'll prove it.

My buddy is suspected of transporting a body of someone he killed to bury it in the woods. But he doesn't own a car. The police find out that I, his buddy, rented a moving van the night he dumped the body and they can't find any evidence that I actually moved. Do you think it would make sense for them to come question me and possibly get a search warrant on me? Or do you also think that's guilt by association?
 
roughdraft274 said:
You are just being too emotional and argumentative about it and I'll prove it.

My buddy is suspected of transporting a body of someone he killed to bury it in the woods. But he doesn't own a car. The police find out that I, his buddy, rented a moving van the night he dumped the body and they can't find any evidence that I actually moved. Do you think it would make sense for them to come question me and possibly get a search warrant on me? Or do you also think that's guilt by association?
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stupid analogy. have you ever figured out that criminals don't buy guns that are easily traced to them? do you understand that the "private sales" involve people who know each other are criminals? of course not, hence your complete failure to understand the two quotes you pretend demonstrate a contradiction
 
CLAX1911 said:
Yes recovery of stolen fire arms. But that's not necessary. There are serial numbers on fire arms they are unique. Thus of you know the serial number of your fire arm of out turns up it can be recovered.
One link is caterwalling about gun manufactures finding the NRA. Oh dear Lord save us all from evil corporations funding our citizen based organizations from defending the interest of our citizens.

The other link is some fiction about NRA being a shadow government that can rewrite the constitution at its whim.

You haven't made a valid argument for registration. Your huey about local serial numbers is laughable. And your conspiracy theories are pathetic.
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it makes sense since most of the anti gun movement comes from the same sector of society that despises corporate wealth
 
roughdraft274 said:
You are just being too emotional and argumentative about it and I'll prove it.

My buddy is suspected of transporting a body of someone he killed to bury it in the woods. But he doesn't own a car. The police find out that I, his buddy, rented a moving van the night he dumped the body and they can't find any evidence that I actually moved. Do you think it would make sense for them to come question me and possibly get a search warrant on me? Or do you also think that's guilt by association?
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Yep.. they can question you.

Get a search warrant just because you rented a moving van? no. That's fishing. And unconstitutional. Why not get search warrants on every associate of your buddy that owns a car? Or has access to a car etc?

nope.. I am not being emotional. you sir are.

You have started with the premise that firearms registration is going to work wonders. EVEN when you acknowledge that its defeated with a simple file. And despite the facts, you continue to twist yourself into logical knots trying to justify registration that does none of the things you claim it will.
 
jaeger19 said:
Yep.. they can question you.

Get a search warrant just because you rented a moving van? no. That's fishing. And unconstitutional. Why not get search warrants on every associate of your buddy that owns a car? Or has access to a car etc?

nope.. I am not being emotional. you sir are.

You have started with the premise that firearms registration is going to work wonders. EVEN when you acknowledge that its defeated with a simple file. And despite the facts, you continue to twist yourself into logical knots trying to justify registration that does none of the things you claim it will.
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Because that's drastically different. They might even have to get some more evidence, but once they find out that the buddy rented a van on the exact night that this guy supposedly dumped a body, it gives them an extremely valuable lead. They can question him, if his answers don't appear honest etc. then they can do what's needed to get a warrant. We can disagree on exactly what is required (and I have a feeling that you are of the opinion that search warrants should be damn near impossible to get) but that a registry would give us precious information on where these guns are likely coming from is essentially a tautology. The problem with a gun registry isn't "would it be useful if it was correct and accurate", the problem is how to make it correct and accurate and extensive. The analogy that we are working through now would be similar to a vehicle registry if the guy's buddy had an old blue chevy and they suspect that perp A killed the person and they have a photo showing an old blue chevy near the dump site, but the license plate had been removed in the traffic photo. You can still link the fact that the guy owns that car and use it as information or a lead to investigate further. Obviously the analogy isn't perfect, but the idea stands. The information is incredibly useful for law enforcement.
 
vegas giants said:
Of course they can. Private sales can take place at a FFL.
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sure.. heck. you could require that private sales be done only in Washington DC at a one federal FFL.

BUT. the practicality of private sales taking place at an FFL?

The nearest FFL for me is over 60 miles away.

IF they would even be willing to do it.. and because of BATF regulations.. there is no way they will do it. Its hard even finding an FFL that will take a transfer from another FFL to me when I buy from gun broker.. much less find one that will handle a transfer from a private seller to private seller. I don't even know an FFL that will do that now.. much less go about registering a firearm for someone.

their time and liability for another persons sale?

As usual.. you have no clue what you are talking about.
 
roughdraft274 said:
Because that's drastically different. They might even have to get some more evidence, but once they find out that the buddy rented a van on the exact night that this guy supposedly dumped a body, it gives them an extremely valuable lead. They can question him, if his answers don't appear honest etc. then they can do what's needed to get a warrant. .
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No its not different. you have made the assumption that because the buddy had access to a vehicle.. a moving van.. then he is suspicious for moving the body. Based simply on having access to a vehicle. Well.. based on that.. you would have to get search warrants on every other associate and family member that has access to a car.

Look at your logic... why do you think the buddy might have moved the body? "he had rented a vehicle".

okay.. well what about ALL THE OTHER Friends and associates THAT ALSO HAD ACCESS TO A VEHICLE?

The problem with a gun registry isn't "would it be useful if it was correct and accurate", the problem is how to make it correct and accurate and extensive
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No the question is whether it would be useful... IF you are invading my privacy and increasing my costs, hassling me..making me and other citizens jump through multiple hoops to own a firearm.. and for what? You gosh darn better have a good reason. NOW you have stated that its going to provide all this useful information.

And then basically admitted that its all defeated with a 59 cent metal file from home depot.

Obviously the analogy isn't perfect, but the idea stands. The information is incredibly useful for law enforcement.
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No its not. IF it was incredibly usefull.. then Canada that has gun registry for handguns.. would see that criminals would move from using handguns to other firearms... but that's not what happens.. the firearms most used in criminal activity are ,, handguns.

Canada also tried to register shotguns and rifles as well. After a few years.. they gave it up because it was useless. It was expensive and the information was pretty much useless in solving crimes.

The law passed and starting in 1998 Canadians were required to have a license to own firearms and register their weapons with the government. According to Canadian researcher (and gun enthusiast) Gary Mauser, the Canada Firearms Center quickly rose to 600 employees and the cost of the effort climbed past $600 million. In 2002 Canada's auditor general released a report saying initial cost estimates of $2 million (Canadian) had increased to $1 billion as the government tried to register the estimated 15 million guns owned by Canada's 34 million residents.

The registry was plagued with complications like duplicate serial numbers and millions of incomplete records, Mauser reports. One person managed to register a soldering gun, demonstrating the lack of precise standards. And overshadowing the effort was the suspicion of misplaced effort: Pistols were used in 66% of gun homicides in 2011, yet they represent about 6% of the guns in Canada. Legal long guns were used in 11% of killings that year, according to Statistics Canada, while illegal weapons like sawed-off shotguns and machine guns, which by definition cannot be registered, were used in another 12%.

So the government was spending the bulk of its money -- about $17 million of the Firearms Center's $82 million annual budget -- trying to register long guns when the statistics showed they weren't the problem.

There was also the question of how registering guns was supposed to reduce crime and suicide in the first place. From 1997 to 2005, only 13% of the guns used in homicides were registered. Police studies in Canada estimated that 2-16% of guns used in crimes were stolen from legal owners and thus potentially in the registry
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jaeger19 said:
sure.. heck. you could require that private sales be done only in Washington DC at a one federal FFL.

BUT. the practicality of private sales taking place at an FFL?

The nearest FFL for me is over 60 miles away.

IF they would even be willing to do it.. and because of BATF regulations.. there is no way they will do it. Its hard even finding an FFL that will take a transfer from another FFL to me when I buy from gun broker.. much less find one that will handle a transfer from a private seller to private seller. I don't even know an FFL that will do that now.. much less go about registering a firearm for someone.

their time and liability for another persons sale?

As usual.. you have no clue what you are talking about.
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Too bad. Sell your car and you have to go to the DMV. Not my problem
 
vegas giants said:
Too bad. Sell your car and you have to go to the DMV. Not my problem
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I don't have to go to the DMV when I sell my car. You don't know what you are talking about.
 
vegas giants said:
Thank you for your opinion
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Not an opinion.. its a fact.. there is no requirement that I go to the DMV when a sell my car.

And its a fact that you don't know what you are talking about.
 
jaeger19 said:
Not an opinion.. its a fact.. there is no requirement that I go to the DMV when a sell my car.

And its a fact that you don't know what you are talking about.
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Thank you for your opinion.
 
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