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Why avoid considering God as noted?

Sorry, but I for one don't find their examples convincing. YMMV.......

He was a Jewish zealot, who lived in a land occupied by the Roman Empire, with local leaders and religious authorities who cooperated with the Gentiles, a condition he perceived as blasphemous and unholy, and a sign of an eschatological crisis. So he traveled around Judea, performing tricks similar to dozens of other miracle workers who wandered the ancient world, trying to convince people to chuck out the Romans, using the terms he understood best -- claims to be a messiah, claims that HaShem was going to kick some ass, and so forth. He provoked the Romans during Passover (bad plan), they executed him, no one noticed, and his shattered followers made sense of it the best way they could -- by claiming he was resurrected and divine.

Not that complicated. Doesn't require a belief in the supernatural, especially when we realize that the ancient world was full of reports of supernatural activity -- including by the Romans.

Wow. We believe what we want to believe. This is surely proof.
Just your last bit, about Christ being a Zealot intent on overthrowing Rome. Where did he ever say this anywhere? In fact he did, but not the way you describe he might wish to.
It would appear you do not accept the biblical account of who he was and what he did. But please don't make crap up. It doesn't server you well, if you are after truth, as you seem to claim.
 
That's the crux isn't it. Atheists dismiss all. I reason that there is one, and I accept the one I choose, by reason. It's that simple. You won't find me burning at the state those who choose none, or others.
It's each of our crosses to bear, free will, if you will.

I don't dismiss all the narratives, I'm just open to the one I believe in changing. Why accept the one you chose? Why not be open to changing your mind. I think it's clear we don't have all the information yet, seems silly to choose a narrative and then live and die by it.

Before the 1859, the non-religious narrative didn't include evolution. Then Darwin came along and changed the narrative. Before 1927, nobody believed in the big bang. Then evidence was put forward to it, and people changed their mind. Then we discovered it didn't' quite work, and found evidence for inflation. The narrative was changed once again.

The difference between the narrative I believe and you believe is that my one is constantly evolving as more and more brilliant people over generations add to it, and each of these additions is verified by a whole community of people from a whole range of disciplines. Sure the narrative I believe in isn't complete, but at least it's reasoned.
 
That's the crux isn't it. Atheists dismiss all.

Only all notions with no good reason to believe in them, those that lack evidence and are based on faith.

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

Don't confuse skeptical with dismissive, if you had good reasons for your belief we'd change our minds. Unfortunately for you, every mystery in history that was solved turned out to be NOT magic.
 
I notice that many unbelievers in God or Christ are bent on finding alternative explanations for the narrative.

Um... I think everyone tries to understand the world in light of what they already believe. That's why many Christians disbelieve evolution and an old earth even when they know very little about those things specifically.

Why? I can understand a skeptical mind, based on reason. But shouldn't that same mind attempt to live in the actual proposed paradigm to give it an honest shot?

I think it's important to try to judge world views objectively. Part of that entails figuring out what it would take to convince yourself that a particular world view is true or false, and then judging whether that criteria is reasonable. I think I do that. I don't think most Christians do that. I don't think most Christians have thought deeply about what it would take to convince them that they're wrong. In fact, it seems to me that the entire Christian religion is set up to discourage believers from honestly considering whether their position is wrong (i.e. it treats belief in their worldview as a positive trait in and of itself, it champions faith, it conflates non belief in their religious views with rejection of said views, and it's filled with tests of their worldview like prayer that can result in confirming evidence but can never result in disconfirming evidence). All these elements within Christianity work together to prevent the Christian from ever objectively looking at their own Christian beliefs.

I think we as humans would like to be our own gods (pride) so that we don't have to answer to anyone but ourselves. It's much better this way, as we get to make our own rules. But is it the truth?

I've heard many Christians say this type of thing. It's based on an assumption. You're assuming that if people don't believe your views, it's simply because they don't want them to be true. Then you're making an addition assumption that if they don't want them to be true, it must be for that particular reason. First (and most importantly), these assumptions are based on your own bias as a Christian to begin with. Second, they don't match the evidence. Countries with higher atheism are usually the ones with less crime and chaos, and people like the mafia haven't stopped being believers despite committing murder and numerous other crimes that their religion disapproves of. When I look at the world, I see a world where those religious people who want to "make their own rules" don't become atheists; they become hypocrites.
 
I don't dismiss all the narratives, I'm just open to the one I believe in changing. Why accept the one you chose? Why not be open to changing your mind. I think it's clear we don't have all the information yet, seems silly to choose a narrative and then live and die by it.

Before the 1859, the non-religious narrative didn't include evolution. Then Darwin came along and changed the narrative. Before 1927, nobody believed in the big bang. Then evidence was put forward to it, and people changed their mind. Then we discovered it didn't' quite work, and found evidence for inflation. The narrative was changed once again.

The difference between the narrative I believe and you believe is that my one is constantly evolving as more and more brilliant people over generations add to it, and each of these additions is verified by a whole community of people from a whole range of disciplines. Sure the narrative I believe in isn't complete, but at least it's reasoned.

Yours is indeed a reasonable world. Science discovers the physical, and we should note it, although bearing in mind that it does change quite frequently. Old things are thrown out, new ideas are put to the test.
I am not afraid of truth. In fact I always try to seek it out. God is truth, so I would be remiss otherwise. Science is not an enemy of God, only those who use it to try and throw dust in the eyes of others who would believe.
The thing that is interesting to me is the great lengths folks will go through to explain away the Christ and his work. It is as though they fear it, and likely that is the truth.
 
And how is that different than Christians who want you to only believe THEIR god exists and we must follow biblical law?

Little difference. Both can be close minded and blind to evidence clearly before them. What is interesting to me though is why the non believers so often come stampeding into a thread like this. What make religious concepts, that they discount, often with scorn and contempt, so fascinating to them? It intrigues me.

I dislike very much the attitude of those who would introduce the Jesus they say they love by telling somebody they are going to hell or they are evil or whatever because that somebody doesn't believe the Bible as they do. I imagine many are driven away by the truly uncharitable and hateful way that God/Jesus is presented to them.

I dislike just as much the attitude of those who seem gung ho and decidedly determined to disrespect and ridicule and hold in contempt people of faith and who are so arrogant and cruel as to even attempt to destroy the faith of those who find comfort and joy in their belief. What kind of people do that?
 
Only all notions with no good reason to believe in them, those that lack evidence and are based on faith.
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens
Don't confuse skeptical with dismissive, if you had good reasons for your belief we'd change our minds. Unfortunately for you, every mystery in history that was solved turned out to be NOT magic.

That is every mystery that you can empirically test. You can really test the resurrection of the Christ. You can't test his reigning in heaven.
You have to take the word of those whom you might trust at times.

If you are in a situation where the dam has broken and the policeman tells you to flee to high ground, you should probably flee.
But if you are walking to the post office and a guy living in a cardboard box tells you to flee, it might not be a huge concern.
Either way, you are unable to test the evidence, you just have to make a personal decision to flee or not.
Christ is similar. We can't test it out, as we can't put the spiritual to any earthly tests. We have to take his word, and from there make a personal decision what we will do.
He knew this, hence the emphasis in faith. We have to trust because we believe God. If we are per-disposed to disbelieve in God, then we are going to have nothing but contempt for the message.
It's becoming more clear in my head anyway, the why. This thread has been helpful that far. Some just won't believe, and that is that. Time to move on.

This is the scripture regarding a request for proofs from God:
1The Pharisees and Sadducees came up, and testing Jesus, they asked Him to show them a sign from heaven. 2But He replied to them, “When it is evening, you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red.’ 3“And in the morning, ‘There will be a storm today, for the sky is red and threatening.’ Do you know how to discern the appearance of the sky, but cannot discern the signs of the times? 4“An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and a sign will not be given it, except the sign of Jonah.” And He left them and went away.
 
I'm an atheist, but I can feel uplifted by a glorious sunset,
Me too, then I turn it into a very alcoholic Tequila-based cocktail.

moved by some music,
...moved to murder anyone who puts on Coldplay.

or admire the beauty of a butterfly's wing.
...admired, swatted and pinned to a bit of cardboard!
 
Um... I think everyone tries to understand the world in light of what they already believe. That's why many Christians disbelieve evolution and an old earth even when they know very little about those things specifically.

I think it's important to try to judge world views objectively. Part of that entails figuring out what it would take to convince yourself that a particular world view is true or false, and then judging whether that criteria is reasonable. I think I do that. I don't think most Christians do that. I don't think most Christians have thought deeply about what it would take to convince them that they're wrong. In fact, it seems to me that the entire Christian religion is set up to discourage believers from honestly considering whether their position is wrong (i.e. it treats belief in their worldview as a positive trait in and of itself, it champions faith, it conflates non belief in their religious views with rejection of said views, and it's filled with tests of their worldview like prayer that can result in confirming evidence but can never result in disconfirming evidence). All these elements within Christianity work together to prevent the Christian from ever objectively looking at their own Christian beliefs.

I've heard many Christians say this type of thing. It's based on an assumption. You're assuming that if people don't believe your views, it's simply because they don't want them to be true. Then you're making an addition assumption that if they don't want them to be true, it must be for that particular reason. First (and most importantly), these assumptions are based on your own bias as a Christian to begin with. Second, they don't match the evidence. Countries with higher atheism are usually the ones with less crime and chaos, and people like the mafia haven't stopped being believers despite committing murder and numerous other crimes that their religion disapproves of. When I look at the world, I see a world where those religious people who want to "make their own rules" don't become atheists; they become hypocrites.

Most people don't look into anything they do very deeply. This takes work, and it's the nature of humans to do as little of it as possible. It is the few, religious or atheist, who are willing and diligent to look deeply at a thing. So I think we agree there.
I know quite a few unbelievers. They don't impress me so much as people who have looked deeply into why they don't believe. They just don't believe. There are of course exceptions, but I addressed these already above.
I would disagree that Christians are discouraged from testing their faith and their understanding. The bible is quite a thick book, and full of information about God. We consider it all as we read, to see if it doesn't make sense in the world we understand. Else why would we believe? It costs time, money, and self-sacrifice to believe. It is much easier to disbelieve.
Does it not make sense though that those who do genuinely believe would encourage others? There are certainly religious shysters, but there is a huge body of faithful that we call Christs Church, who believe and give, and worship and live according to their belief. What can they do but encourage others to find the good news they have discovered? Once you believe, it is difficult to be completely object I agree. When you make that paradigm shift, the evidence itself has different meanings from what a non-believer would draw.

My assumptions are certainly based on my observation of people and my own life. There are parts of me that would rather not believe. Would rather be the ruler of my own life. But I must bring these into submission to God. Why? Because I believe God is alive, and to pretend otherwise is to live a lie. To live for my own pleasures and comforts, turning from his will, is to deny the truth as I understand it. It is in this respect that I believe others want to be their own God. Not necessarily the Loki types who want others to bow down to them, although these aren't rare.

Often folks think that because a believer is espousing Christ, that they should live like him. But if you read the Bible and understand it, you will know that his example is an impossible one for us in this life. We can but do our best to try. We sin, as all do. I used to laugh at Christians who said "I'm not perfect, just forgiven" as I thought it awfully convenient. But I've come to understand the truth in it. I don't see it as awful anymore, I see it as a great and undeserved gift from God, in his mercy.
 
Me too, then I turn it into a very alcoholic Tequila-based cocktail.
...moved to murder anyone who puts on Coldplay.
...admired, swatted and pinned to a bit of cardboard!

Irreverent, but you have a good sense of humor.
 
Wow. We believe what we want to believe. This is surely proof.
Just your last bit, about Christ being a Zealot intent on overthrowing Rome. Where did he ever say this anywhere?
If you actually knew the slightest bit about the historical context of Jesus' time, you'd understand that a significant reason for his ministry and actions was a reaction against the Roman occupation of Judea.


It would appear you do not accept the biblical account of who he was and what he did. But please don't make crap up.
I'm not "making crap up." This is all a pretty standard historical understanding of Jesus' life and times.

For example, pretty much no one cared about Jesus' death, except his followers. We have no Roman records of any events from that Passover. The only contemporary account that mentions him is by Josephus, and the reference is basically one disputed line of text which may have been added by subsequent copyists. You may not like hearing that no one cared, but it's simply the case.

You appear to have a lack of imagination, that makes it impossible for you to see Jesus as only being one of two options -- divine or insane. I've given you a third, a religiously inspired individual who had strong beliefs, but was not insane.


It doesn't server you well, if you are after truth, as you seem to claim.
"Serve." And IMO I'm much closer to "The Truth" by understanding the historical context, kthx.
 
If you actually knew the slightest bit about the historical context of Jesus' time, you'd understand that a significant reason for his ministry and actions was a reaction against the Roman occupation of Judea.
I'm not "making crap up." This is all a pretty standard historical understanding of Jesus' life and times.
For example, pretty much no one cared about Jesus' death, except his followers. We have no Roman records of any events from that Passover. The only contemporary account that mentions him is by Josephus, and the reference is basically one disputed line of text which may have been added by subsequent copyists. You may not like hearing that no one cared, but it's simply the case.
You appear to have a lack of imagination, that makes it impossible for you to see Jesus as only being one of two options -- divine or insane. I've given you a third, a religiously inspired individual who had strong beliefs, but was not insane.

"Serve." And IMO I'm much closer to "The Truth" by understanding the historical context, kthx.

I don't mean to be disrespectful to you. I apologize honestly and intentionally for using that term and offending you with it.

This is what you said: "So he traveled around Judea, performing tricks similar to dozens of other miracle workers who wandered the ancient world, trying to convince people to chuck out the Romans, using the terms he understood best -- claims to be a messiah"

There is just no historical backing for claiming such a thing. He came for all of us, and gave his life. It is clear in this passage:
I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. .....
“I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.


His motive is quite clear all throughout the accounts of his life and teaching.
He came to give his life for many. The first sheep are the Jews. The "other" sheep are the gentiles, including the Romans, as many as would listen to his voice.
Your account sounds like that of some historian trying to make some kind of contemporary sense of his life, leaving off what he said, taught, and lived (and died) for. So your position is quite unfounded and unsupportable. As with all unbelievers, there is always the attempt to make him something other than what He is. And something other that what He is is always something far less, and far less threatening to our own personal positions.
 
So we agree on a bunch of things.

“I would disagree that Christians are discouraged from testing their faith and their understanding. The bible is quite a thick book, and full of information about God. We consider it all as we read, to see if it doesn't make sense in the world we understand. Else why would we believe? It costs time, money, and self-sacrifice to believe.”

I don’t doubt the sincerity of Christians in their beliefs. What I meant was that there are methodologies to determine the validity of any given belief, and the Christian belief system in many ways undermines that methodology.

“It is much easier to disbelieve.”

I think many people are scared by the idea that they’ll simply cease to exist. Christianity says they’ll live forever in a sense. They don’t like that they’ll never see the people they love after those people die. Christianity says they will. The idea that they don’t exist on this earth for any given purpose is something that scares many people. Christianity says they have a given purpose. I could go on. Whether or not it’s easier to believe or disbelieve depends on the individual. However, I think that many people find it easier to believe, especially Christians who have never known anything else and therefore have never had to deal with these existential questions. There are other reasons as well for why it might be easier to believe. I’ve heard from one person that losing God was not only like losing his best friend, but finding out that his best friend has never existed.

“My assumptions are certainly based on my observation of people and my own life. There are parts of me that would rather not believe. Would rather be the ruler of my own life. But I must bring these into submission to God. Why? Because I believe God is alive, and to pretend otherwise is to live a lie. To live for my own pleasures and comforts, turning from his will, is to deny the truth as I understand it. It is in this respect that I believe others want to be their own God. Not necessarily the Loki types who want others to bow down to them, although these aren't rare.”

Ok, I think i have a better understanding of what you meant.
 
I don't dismiss all the narratives, I'm just open to the one I believe in changing. Why accept the one you chose? Why not be open to changing your mind. I think it's clear we don't have all the information yet, seems silly to choose a narrative and then live and die by it.

Before the 1859, the non-religious narrative didn't include evolution. Then Darwin came along and changed the narrative. Before 1927, nobody believed in the big bang. Then evidence was put forward to it, and people changed their mind. Then we discovered it didn't' quite work, and found evidence for inflation. The narrative was changed once again.

The difference between the narrative I believe and you believe is that my one is constantly evolving as more and more brilliant people over generations add to it, and each of these additions is verified by a whole community of people from a whole range of disciplines. Sure the narrative I believe in isn't complete, but at least it's reasoned.

There's also a crapload more physical evidence for evolution than the resurrection or noah's ark. In fact, there's at least one species i know that evolves during a human lifetime, so anyone can go see for themselves.
 
Yours is indeed a reasonable world. Science discovers the physical, and we should note it, although bearing in mind that it does change quite frequently. Old things are thrown out, new ideas are put to the test.
I am not afraid of truth. In fact I always try to seek it out. God is truth, so I would be remiss otherwise. Science is not an enemy of God, only those who use it to try and throw dust in the eyes of others who would believe.
The thing that is interesting to me is the great lengths folks will go through to explain away the Christ and his work. It is as though they fear it, and likely that is the truth.

If it's not an enemy of religion, how come the bible doesn't predict any of these scientific findings? Why didn't Jesus mention evolution or the big bang, or telomeres, cloning, dna, organ transplants...you get the idea. The actual prophecy that's made is all too convenient. "My second coming will bring end times, but oh, not telling when that will be!" Well it's been a damn long time. What's he waiting for?

I don't get this accusation of fearing the 'truth' of Christianity. Like continuing to exist after death, in some land of bliss isn't preferable? What's there to fear in believing?
 
There is no difference in action. The only difference is the employment of "faith" as a discrete element of religious expression, and that is recognized by convention - not any real difference in actual meaning at all.

I showed you the definition. This is as clear as clear can be. You are acting desperate and it is unbecoming. Just accept it. If you're only argument is that you can't understand that a word has two different meanings then you can stop responding because I'm not accepting that (because it's wrong, hence the TWO DIFFERENT DEFINITIONS).
 
I showed you the definition. This is as clear as clear can be. You are acting desperate and it is unbecoming. Just accept it. If you're only argument is that you can't understand that a word has two different meanings then you can stop responding because I'm not accepting that (because it's wrong, hence the TWO DIFFERENT DEFINITIONS).

In the current lexicon, there are more definitions of the word "cow" than there are of "faith". Precisely how faith is characterized doesn't change the action involved. So because I don't accept the definition offered, it would probably be better to end the conversation, and you can continue with your understanding, and I'll continue with mine unpersuaded.
 
I don't mean to be disrespectful to you. I apologize honestly and intentionally for using that term and offending you with it.

This is what you said: "So he traveled around Judea, performing tricks similar to dozens of other miracle workers who wandered the ancient world, trying to convince people to chuck out the Romans, using the terms he understood best -- claims to be a messiah"

There is just no historical backing for claiming such a thing.
Actually, there is. If you read up on the history of the time, you'll learn that I'm not spinning claims out of thin air. E.g. the Romans executed quite a few Jewish prophets and leaders, before and after Jesus. "Miracle workers" were common in the ancient world. The Jews were livid about the Romans, and this is present in their religious writings of the time. For example: The Essenes were a group of devout Jews who lived in their own community near the Dead Sea, and rejected the Temple as corrupt for collaborating with the Roman overlords.

Similarly, we can look at a contemporary account such as Josephus, who goes into great detail about the Jewish uprisings but says practically nothing about Jesus and the early Jesus Movement.


His motive is quite clear all throughout the accounts of his life and teaching.
And yet, so many people derive so many conflicting ideas about Jesus. Ah well.

Anyway, I'd say that his disruption of the money changers is a typical example. Without historical context, this may seem like a generic assault on materialism. However, in context, it's very different. Jesus was a Jew, and he was objecting to the presence of the money changers in the Temple, which was supposed to be the most important sacred space for all of Judaism. He was basically saying "the Temple and its leaders are corrupted," and part of that was their collaboration with the Romans -- along the exact same lines as the Essenes.


Your account sounds like that of some historian trying to make some kind of contemporary sense of his life, leaving off what he said, taught, and lived (and died) for. So your position is quite unfounded and unsupportable.
...except that it's based on the best information we can put together from an understanding of history, and the actual events as recorded during his time.

And again, part of the point is to illustrate how there are plenty of options aside from saying "Jesus was either divine or insane, and can't be anything else." That's a false choice.
 
Actually, there is. If you read up on the history of the time, you'll learn that I'm not spinning claims out of thin air. E.g. the Romans executed quite a few Jewish prophets and leaders, before and after Jesus. "Miracle workers" were common in the ancient world. The Jews were livid about the Romans, and this is present in their religious writings of the time. For example: The Essenes were a group of devout Jews who lived in their own community near the Dead Sea, and rejected the Temple as corrupt for collaborating with the Roman overlords.

Similarly, we can look at a contemporary account such as Josephus, who goes into great detail about the Jewish uprisings but says practically nothing about Jesus and the early Jesus Movement.

And yet, so many people derive so many conflicting ideas about Jesus. Ah well.

This last part is due to our desire to understand him on our terms, not on his terms.


Anyway, I'd say that his disruption of the money changers is a typical example. Without historical context, this may seem like a generic assault on materialism. However, in context, it's very different. Jesus was a Jew, and he was objecting to the presence of the money changers in the Temple, which was supposed to be the most important sacred space for all of Judaism. He was basically saying "the Temple and its leaders are corrupted," and part of that was their collaboration with the Romans -- along the exact same lines as the Essenes.



...except that it's based on the best information we can put together from an understanding of history, and the actual events as recorded during his time.

And again, part of the point is to illustrate how there are plenty of options aside from saying "Jesus was either divine or insane, and can't be anything else." That's a false choice.

There are other possible choices, but I think there are probably not other viable choice. It just is what it is. You can't claim to be God without either being Him, or being nuts.
You haven't made a case at all for Jesus' actions being anti-Roman. You'd think with all the books of the new testament the case would be easy for you to make. But it's just not there. You having to use the moeny-changers as an example illustrates how sparse the evidence, and how reaching you have to get to come to your conclusion. The Jews did hope that the Christ would deliver them from the Romans, but Jesus didn't make that claim, and didn't work to that end. This is likely one of the primary reasons most Jews rejected him in the first place. There is probably a stronger case to be made here by far than your premise.

Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. “Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels? “How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?”

It is all but impossible to even infer your position from the historical record. Yet you choose this option over believing what he said directly about himself, and what those who followed him believed about him.
This isn't overly surprising in that most who can't believe his message make some kind of attempt to mischaracterize him (explain him away).
It is quite clear the Jews in general weren't happy with Roman occupation, but that has little to do with Christ.
How you impute his anger over the money changers to any unhappiness with Jews cooperating with Rome is just your personal interpretation.
Had this been the seat of or even one of the primary reasons for his unhappiness with the Jewish leadership why would he dine with the tax collectors?
They were probably one of the most despised groups in the culture for that reason.
Your position remains unsupported, and part of the general attempt to treat Christ as something other than that which he claimed to be.
There may have been a lot of christ wanna-be's running around in that day, but that was because the Jews knew the Christ was coming.
Christ wasn't a want to be, he was the Christ.

I would think from a scientific viewpoint even atheists could agree with the words of this wise Jewish leader, and this I think speaks to your idea that there were many "Christs" running around at that time and that he was one of many (this is regarding his disciples arrest):

And now I say unto you, refrain from these men and let them alone, for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought;
but if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it, lest it may happen ye be found even to fight against God.”


The work came to full fruition, and he was right, they could not stop it. It has spread around the globe, literally.
 
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I notice that many unbelievers in God or Christ are bent on finding alternative explanations for the narrative.
Why? I can understand a skeptical mind, based on reason. But shouldn't that same mind attempt to live in the actual proposed paradigm to give it an honest shot?

I think we as humans would like to be our own gods (pride) so that we don't have to answer to anyone but ourselves. It's much better this way, as we get to make our own rules. But is it the truth?
It's just interesting to me that those who won't believe go to such great lengths to avoid the consideration of the Bible actually being the truth about God.
It takes more faith to believe some of the alternate reasons for the Bible / Christ than it does to take it on it's own merit.

because it seems made up and the reason to make it up aside from mythological explanations for things is because peapole are their own gods and making a religion lets you make your own rules and give them legitimacy in peoples eyes

taking the bible as is the god in it is an evil monster

making it the product of flawed humans would make the god less evil

because at lest then an all powerful all knowing creator is not responsible for such cruelty oppression and violence

its just how he was made
 
because it seems made up and the reason to make it up aside from mythological explanations for things is because peapole are their own gods and making a religion lets you make your own rules and give them legitimacy in peoples eyes
taking the bible as is the god in it is an evil monster
making it the product of flawed humans would make the god less evil
because at lest then an all powerful all knowing creator is not responsible for such cruelty oppression and violence
its just how he was made

We already make up our own rules as things sit. In fact, we have always made up our own rules, such is the rebellion of man against God. So you think adding God to the mix lends these made up rules more sticking power?
The thing about the Bible and Christ is that the laws laid down are not selfish and serving any one group. They are good for all people, if they will abide them.
The laws of men, or the tweaks men put on the laws of God that are the self-centered rules.

I know you see God as evil Blarg. Do you believe in justice? Should people pay the price for their crimes?
 
We already make up our own rules as things sit. In fact, we have always made up our own rules, such is the rebellion of man against God. So you think adding God to the mix lends these made up rules more sticking power?
The thing about the Bible and Christ is that the laws laid down are not selfish and serving any one group. They are good for all people, if they will abide them.
The laws of men, or the tweaks men put on the laws of God that are the self-centered rules.

I know you see God as evil Blarg. Do you believe in justice? Should people pay the price for their crimes?

that man rebelled against a god also seems made up

adding god to the mix lets you believe that what you want serves all people ( at least if they will do what you want )

justice and punishment sound good but something is only just if I believe it is and that goes for punishments to

punishing people for not believing in a certain god or not making 1 day of the week special or for having sex out side of a marriage between a guy and a gal and having that punishment for those things (and everything I do consider wrong ) to be endless suffering or death doesn't seem just or for the good of all people
 
that man rebelled against a god also seems made up
adding god to the mix lets you believe that what you want serves all people ( at least if they will do what you want )
justice and punishment sound good but something is only just if I believe it is and that goes for punishments to
punishing people for not believing in a certain god or not making 1 day of the week special or for having sex out side of a marriage between a guy and a gal and having that punishment for those things (and everything I do consider wrong ) to be endless suffering or death doesn't seem just or for the good of all people

I understand. We all want to do what we want to do. But if God made you, then it makes sense that he knows what is best for you.
It is very likely you will hate God if what you want to do isn't in keeping with his truth, even if what you want to do isn't good for you in the long run.
But not believing in him doesn't changes things, if indeed he exists and did make you.
So you have a choice. Do whatever you want, and risk his judgement. Or believe and live as he made us to live. To be most happy, whether we think it will or not at the time.

There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.

Regarding women and submission, the other part of it is:

"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her"
 
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