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Who supports the 17th amendment

Do you support the 17th amendment


  • Total voters
    55
And yet it was your team that selected the unspeakably ill-suited Donald Trump president based on a misrepresented resume featuring his lead role on a canceled reality tv show.

Gotta love that electoral college, huh? There's your divinely inspired founding fathers in action!

he was a better choice for those of us who own guns, run companies or pay lots of taxes than the stupid member of the Clinton Crime family. Now if income redistribution, abortion, gay rights or more union influence are among your major issues, then Hillary was a better choice for you
 
he was a better choice for those of us who own guns, run companies or pay lots of taxes than the stupid member of the Clinton Crime family. Now if income redistribution, abortion, gay rights or more union influence are among your major issues, then Hillary was a better choice for you

You talk as if I am not a gun owner, a blessed job creator, or a massive tax payer.

You are wrong.
 
You talk as if I am not a gun owner, a blessed job creator, or a massive tax payer.

You are wrong.

well given you support massive restrictions on gun ownership, and support big tax hikers, I don't have much faith in your claims being true but that wasn't my point. Lots of Union members own guns but gun rights are subordinate to them behind union interests which is why I see Obama or Clinton stickers on cars at the gun club. and many gays own guns but vote for gun banners because those gun banners are seen as pro gay rights.
 
well given you support massive restrictions on gun ownership, and support big tax hikers, I don't have much faith in your claims being true but that wasn't my point. Lots of Union members own guns but gun rights are subordinate to them behind union interests which is why I see Obama or Clinton stickers on cars at the gun club. and many gays own guns but vote for gun banners because those gun banners are seen as pro gay rights.

You know, it might be hard for you to believe but there actually ARE things that would be subordinate to the 2A even if it was hard baked into our DNA at conception. You cannot eat a gun or live in one, and unless you work IN the gun industry, or law enforcement, security, the military or professional hunting for food, you can't make a living from it either.

People HAVE to place certain things above guns, it's called living in the real world OUTSIDE of the world of guns.
You probably shouldn't interpret everything as an attack on the 2A as much as you do.
You have actually helped me to evolve somewhat on gun rights, so take this criticism as it was intended, respectfully:
There IS more to life than guns, TD.

And as for you not having faith in a person's claims, that's kinda shabby. You didn't call him a liar flat out but I can see it from here.
 
Senators should not feel above their voters after they're voted in, I don't understand why we don't have yearly elections for these spots like The Presidency when they're just if not MORE important for our country as a whole.
 
Outside of a hardcore small group of right wingers, this is NOT at all controversial. They hate the 17th because it brings government closer to the people and they despise the vote of the people because they know they are a small minority whose radical ideas and whack job agenda goes nowhere with the people against them.

The analogy is say you have a large cooperation like Apple or Microsoft and they need to hire a new CEO or CFO. Would it be better to have the board of directors and the upper level management hire him/her, or let the employees, including the janitors, choose in a runoff election?

It is better to let the upper tier management choose because they have access to insider knowledge about the state of the company union and its future goals. This is what they do for a living, and their job is to add to value to the team. The rank and file are part timers, with respect to insider information. They may hear rumors and gossip and would pick for different reasons.

Lack of insider information means they may pick more based on personality, than needed ability. Or they may pick based on which CEO candidate promises then the most freebies, even if this adversely impacts the company's future. The rank and file, who are not sure, can be manipulated to vote like trained seals. Voting can become a way to be part of the hip crowd as well as a way to avoid being bullied like the Democrats do with Trump voters. It makes more sense that people in the know, who do this for a living, who are well informed, will make the best decision. Ask any company to let the employees chose their CEO.

The 17th amendment; election of Senators, was done in conjunction with the Amendment that added an income tax. Since Government was about to screw everyone via income taxes, to avoid the outcry, they threw the citizens a bone, allowing them to elect the Senators. These two were connected and should be treated together. The election of Senators by the citizens was based on the hope their chosen person, would look out for their best monetary interests.

The real question should be, should we get rid of both the income tax and the way we elect Senators? Without the income tax, Senator candidates can't play con man Santa Claus to buy votes. We would need better decision makers, who would elect Senators who can work and lead under spartan conditions. You nee insiders knowledge to make this work.

Consider Senator Warren from Massachusetts,where I currently live. She is promising voters to spend a large share of federal tax revenue on free education and free everything. How many will vote based on these promise of freebies? This is not practical so she will never have to deliver, but can blame someone else. She would never have been elected by her peers in the Mass Legislature, since she is a self serving con artist with little practical skill beyond self promotion. If we took away the income tax, too, she is exposed as the freud that she is. I would be better for all.
 
The analogy is say you have a large cooperation like Apple or Microsoft and they need to hire a new CEO or CFO. Would it be better to have the board of directors and the upper level management hire him/her, or let the employees, including the janitors, choose in a runoff election?

It is better to let the upper tier management choose because they have access to insider knowledge about the state of the company union and its future goals. This is what they do for a living, and their job is to add to value to the team. The rank and file are part timers, with respect to insider information. They may hear rumors and gossip and would pick for different reasons.

Lack of insider information means they may pick more based on personality, than needed ability. Or they may pick based on which CEO candidate promises then the most freebies, even if this adversely impacts the company's future. The rank and file, who are not sure, can be manipulated to vote like trained seals. Voting can become a way to be part of the hip crowd as well as a way to avoid being bullied like the Democrats do with Trump voters. It makes more sense that people in the know, who do this for a living, who are well informed, will make the best decision. Ask any company to let the employees chose their CEO.

The 17th amendment; election of Senators, was done in conjunction with the Amendment that added an income tax. Since Government was about to screw everyone via income taxes, to avoid the outcry, they threw the citizens a bone, allowing them to elect the Senators. These two were connected and should be treated together. The election of Senators by the citizens was based on the hope their chosen person, would look out for their best monetary interests.

The real question should be, should we get rid of both the income tax and the way we elect Senators? Without the income tax, Senator candidates can't play con man Santa Claus to buy votes. We would need better decision makers, who would elect Senators who can work and lead under spartan conditions. You nee insiders knowledge to make this work.

Consider Senator Warren from Massachusetts,where I currently live. She is promising voters to spend a large share of federal tax revenue on free education and free everything. How many will vote based on these promise of freebies? This is not practical so she will never have to deliver, but can blame someone else. She would never have been elected by her peers in the Mass Legislature, since she is a self serving con artist with little practical skill beyond self promotion. If we took away the income tax, too, she is exposed as the freud that she is. I would be better for all.

We are a government of the people, by the people and for the people. We are not a government of the elite.

I see no viable alternative to the income tax. Do you?
 
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You know, it might be hard for you to believe but there actually ARE things that would be subordinate to the 2A even if it was hard baked into our DNA at conception. You cannot eat a gun or live in one, and unless you work IN the gun industry, or law enforcement, security, the military or professional hunting for food, you can't make a living from it either.

People HAVE to place certain things above guns, it's called living in the real world OUTSIDE of the world of guns.
You probably shouldn't interpret everything as an attack on the 2A as much as you do.
You have actually helped me to evolve somewhat on gun rights, so take this criticism as it was intended, respectfully:
There IS more to life than guns, TD.

And as for you not having faith in a person's claims, that's kinda shabby. You didn't call him a liar flat out but I can see it from here.

so what politics in your mind trumps that. this is a political board, we talk political issues. You seem to think your values are ones I need to prioritize. In my view, the ability to defend your life is way way up there on things that are important
 
so what politics in your mind trumps that. this is a political board, we talk political issues. You seem to think your values are ones I need to prioritize. In my view, the ability to defend your life is way way up there on things that are important

Tsk tsk tsk, I never made this a binary thing.
 
We are a government of the people, by the people and for the people. We are not a government of the elite.

I see no viable alternative to the income tax. Do you?

If you believe such then why have the senate in the first place? It's useless then. Just have the house of representatives and be done with it. Democracy and all. The senate is anachronism unless it is restored to its prior function.

Actually I do see a viable alternative to the income tax. A transaction tax, in a nutshell a tax on the FLOW of money. 2+ trillion dollars a day are transacted in our economy. You would only need a tax just large enough that people will not go out of their way to avoid it yet is not a large drag on the economy and encourages wealth accumulation and hits those who do the most transactions, the wealthy, by far the hardest. It is also fair as it only has one rate.
 
If you believe such then why have the senate in the first place? It's useless then. Just have the house of representatives and be done with it. Democracy and all. The senate is anachronism unless it is restored to its prior function.

Actually I do see a viable alternative to the income tax. A transaction tax, in a nutshell a tax on the FLOW of money. 2+ trillion dollars a day are transacted in our economy. You would only need a tax just large enough that people will not go out of their way to avoid it yet is not a large drag on the economy and encourages wealth accumulation and hits those who do the most transactions, the wealthy, by far the hardest. It is also fair as it only has one rate.

The theory is that two different parts of Congress provide an internal check and balance - one upon the other.

I would be willing to look at a transaction tax. I have always felt we need one especially on Wall Street dealings.
 
The theory is that two different parts of Congress provide an internal check and balance - one upon the other.

I would be willing to look at a transaction tax. I have always felt we need one especially on Wall Street dealings.

Already is one on Wall Street. It funds the SEC. Its .013% or thereabouts.

The check was with a state government selected senator. Now the Senate is just a puffed up version of the House. One and the same.
 
Already is one on Wall Street. It funds the SEC. Its .013% or thereabouts.

The check was with a state government selected senator. Now the Senate is just a puffed up version of the House. One and the same.

So how much would it have to be to replace the revenue generated by the income tax?
 
The text of the this particular amendment.



The direct election senators.... why is this so controversial now?
That is not how the founders set up the government. If they thought it was a good idea, they'd have written it that way.
 
Because GOPs control over 30 state legislatures and would be able to appoint up to 70 Senators ...

Awwww, let's have a Pity Party for the Dems, because they can't get elected at the state level.
 
Awwww, let's have a Pity Party for the Dems, because they can't get elected at the state level.

Gerrymandering Republicans is why President Theodore Roosevelt STRONGLY supported the 17th amendment.

As for your ‘Pity Party’ phrase, American, we all see who feels sorry 😐 for themselves today, GOPutin Martyrs.
 
The text of the this particular amendment.



The direct election senators.... why is this so controversial now?

It has been controversial for a long time and by many conservatives. By appt. candidates for the senate, they were more
responsive to local politics and less subject to national policy like huge tax cuts and deregulation.

Looks like the repubs love it now because they will...elect just about anybody for just such purposes.
 
Gerrymandering Republicans is why President Theodore Roosevelt STRONGLY supported the 17th amendment.

As for your ‘Pity Party’ phrase, American, we all see who feels sorry �� for themselves today, GOPutin Martyrs.

Your gerrymandering comment is laughable, given the corruption of the Democratic Party. You gerrymandered a convention to cheat Sanders out of what support he had. Try again.
 
Your gerrymandering comment is laughable, given the corruption of the Democratic Party. You gerrymandered a convention to cheat Sanders out of what support he had. Try again.

Americans only see the GRU — GOP — of Corruption.
 
That is not how the founders set up the government. If they thought it was a good idea, they'd have written it that way.

Nonsense. They left us lots of room to make changes in order to form a more perfect union. Otherwise, article 5--among other things--wouldn't exist.
 
Nonsense. They left us lots of room to make changes in order to form a more perfect union. Otherwise, article 5--among other things--wouldn't exist.

We're not more perfect. The 17th Amendment was put in place to weaken the states.
 
We are a government of the people, by the people and for the people. We are not a government of the elite.

I see no viable alternative to the income tax. Do you?

I like the idea of the US Government being the bread winner. In this model, the Government has to pay it's own way and turn a profits, which is then used to help the people. Businesses create new wealth, which pays all the salaries of its employees, and turns a profits, which then benefits the share holders. It is self sufficient and not a large parasite. It does not shake down the market to turn a profit.

The 17th Amendment was both an income tax and election of Senators with popular vote. If you got rid of the income tax, then a popular vote for Senate would make no sense, since popularity does not necessarily mean competence. Like a business, choices for executive; Senators, would need to occur at the highest levels, to keep the company profitable. You could not depend on popular vote to pick the next CEO of Microsoft and still keep it competitive. That approach only works with the parasite model of government, since than model is about stealing instead of giving. Crooks do this better than competent honest people.

Trump is using the power of government to make international trade fair for the US. This will turn a profit in the private sector. Tax cuts puts more money into the private sector where wealth is created. It takes money away from the government ,which never turns a profit. There is net gain. We are heading in the proper direction. This is resisted by all the parasites, who would never be elected, due to their inability to turn a profit for its shareholders; tax payers and citizens.
 
That's your revisionist opinion. Mine is it was put in place to advance democracy. We had a referendum on sovereign states in the mid 19th century. Democracy won.

We're not a democracy, and your statement is nothing more than nonsense. Large government won, not Democracy or Republicanism. Clearly you don't know what you're talking about.
 
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