White House struggles to contain Ukraine fallout

[trouble13]

You really don't get it at all. If Trump sent Rudy to Ukraine to dig up dirt on the Bidens, that's actually fine. It's opposition research and every big campaign does it, and it's perhaps unseemly but legitimate. I am sure Democrats are funding oppo on Trump, maybe including his kids, as we speak.

Where it went off the rails was Trump using his position as POTUS to demand that another person in his position as President put the Bidens under official government investigation, and then make doing it a condition for U.S. support they desperately need, although that last part, the explicit quid pro quo, IMO isn't needed to make it corrupt, it just takes the corruption to 11.

The idea that Trump was concerned about "corruption" in principle is laughable. The man has spent a lifetime in the muck and loves corruption when it suits his interests and has shown ZERO concern in general about it. He cares when investigating it benefits him, and basing foreign policy on it is unacceptable. The only question is whether that corrupt act is impeachable, not whether it's actually OK. It's just not. POTUS targeting his political opponents by name in negotiations with foreign governments cannot be normalized or excused.

Your doing the same thing a lot of people see to be doing. You're filling in missing fscts with assumptions that portray it in the worst possible light.

Yes Trump had people looking into what happened in Ukraine. You assume that is was done as effort to gain opposition research to negatively affect a potential nominee negatively. You have no proof of his intent just your own bias supposition.

You compound this with the assumption that he made approving the sale of missies to the ukraine was conditional to them cooperating with our investigstion. You have no proof of that either and i will add that even if it turns out to be true its not a crime..

What i see so far is that Trump became suspicious of the Bidens involvement in the Ukraine along with some other things going on there related to the russia investigation that he wanted to know more about. Guiliani and Barr both acting their respective capacities went looking around there. Trump acting in his capacity as head of state asked the Ukrainian head of state for the courtosey of assisting them in an area where they have greater authority than we do.

Im not seeing proof of any wrong doing so far. I just see a bunch of oeople jumping to conclusions

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[trouble13]

Just read the phone call and the texts of those negotiating with Ukraine. We'll soon get, if we haven't already with Volker, testimony that confirms it. Bill Taylor looks like a prime witness for example.

Get back to me when you have this confirmation.

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[trouble13]

That's the problem - asking Ukraine and China to investigate the Bidens is different than using our own DoJ. If the U.S. believes the Bidens committed crimes, the U.S. has agencies to handle that. We should not be outsourcing that as a condition of foreign policy favors to corrupt hellholes with different systems of laws, evidence, etc.

Again there is no proof that he put conditions on anything and if it turns out he did it would no matter.

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[eman623]

Days after news reports of the initial story, Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) had thrown her support behind an impeachment inquiry.

Nancy Pelosi has thrown her support behind an impeachment inqury, but not so much to actually have a vote on it and pin down which Dems in GOP districts support removing a sitting Republican president. In other words, the support is lukewarm at best and the kind that doesn't really want to go on the record.

Kind of like the whistleleaker himself now that I think of it. :lamo

 

[Casca XV]

Odd then that his approval rating has never been over 50%. One would think a president with so many successes would be flying high; especially with a strong economy. How you do things can be just as important as what you accomplish; if you're not wise enough to realize that, then people will remember the bad parts more than they will remember the good ones.

over the last year his approval has been at or higher than Obamas at this same time.

Over the last 30 years I have seen one poll where when compared to the election results it error in favor of the GOP.

Take any poll about the GOP especially President Trump, add to the approval and it will be more accurate, the only argument is how much to add.

Take any poll about any Democrat, subtract from the approval and it will be more accurate, the only argument is how much to subtract.

 

[joko104]

Yep, information is a thing of value.

Do you think Ukraine conducts investigations for free?


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No, that is not what "thing of value" means. If so, merely speaking to ANYONE with ANY foreign government is the same crime as anything could have value of one kind or another - even just a handshake others see.

 

[joko104]

Joe Biden spoke to the President of Ukraine, demanding the firing of the prosecutor in exchange for a $1 billion dollar loan from the USA. He then bragged in a campaign speech of this. CLEARLY, Joe Biden claims there is and believes there is a political benefit from his communications with a foreign leader. Therefore, Joe Biden sought and received something from a foreign leader of value - ie political value for himself - a criminal offense.

 

[snakestretcher]

Typical missinformation ploy by the progressive media. I read the article and saw no examples of them strugglining with anything.
From the article


What struggle and what fall out are they talking about? Trumps approval ratings are growing. Apparently the hill feels threatened by trumps response and feels the need to mischaracterize it in their op-ed piece.

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Trump's approval ratings are 'growing'? On what planet? Not on this one, that's for sure. Here's what Gallup found:

Presidential Approval Ratings -- Donald Trump

 

[Allan]

Trumps approval ratings are growing.

Don't think so. He'd have to cure the common cold and deport Justin Bieber just to get above water.

 

[snakestretcher]

No, that is not what "thing of value" means. If so, merely speaking to ANYONE with ANY foreign government is the same crime as anything could have value of one kind or another - even just a handshake others see.

Of course it is if Trump uses that information to his advantage. It is clearly illegal. And no, 'speaking' to someone in a foreign government is emphatically not the same as soliciting possibly damaging information on one's political opponent with an election looming. This is especially true when the foreign governments involved are either US rivals (China), or already terminally corrupt (Ukraine). Putin must be pissing himself laughing watching Trump's meltdown.

 

[Allan]

Putin must be pissing himself laughing watching Trump's meltdown.

Putin is good at what he does, and he's been very successful with Trump. Trump is such a useful idiot that Vladimir can carry out this operation with a wink and a smirk and Trump still doesn't get it.

 

[Winston]

No, that is not what "thing of value" means. If so, merely speaking to ANYONE with ANY foreign government is the same crime as anything could have value of one kind or another - even just a handshake others see.

Do investigations cost money?


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[joko104]

Of course it is if Trump uses that information to his advantage. It is clearly illegal. And no, 'speaking' to someone in a foreign government is emphatically not the same as soliciting possibly damaging information on one's political opponent with an election looming. This is especially true when the foreign governments involved are either US rivals (China), or already terminally corrupt (Ukraine). Putin must be pissing himself laughing watching Trump's meltdown.

So you are saying that it isn't speaking to someone with a foreign government for political advantage at all, but rather whether or not YOU like what was said and about whom. It has nothing to do with law at all - just want you want and don't want to happen.

 

[joko104]

Do investigations cost money?


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Investigations by Ukraine do not cost the USA a penny.

 

[Winston]

Investigations by Ukraine do not cost the USA a penny.

Do they cost money? Is there an inherent value to them?


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[JasperL]

Your doing the same thing a lot of people see to be doing. You're filling in missing fscts with assumptions that portray it in the worst possible light.

Yes Trump had people looking into what happened in Ukraine. You assume that is was done as effort to gain opposition research to negatively affect a potential nominee negatively. You have no proof of his intent just your own bias supposition.

Out of all the corruption in the United States and the world, Trump just coincidentally picked a pretty normal example that just happened to involve his then likely opponent in 2020? If we can't agree that's laughable, then there's nowhere to go.

You compound this with the assumption that he made approving the sale of missies to the ukraine was conditional to them cooperating with our investigstion. You have no proof of that either and i will add that even if it turns out to be true its not a crime..

The texts indicate all that was waiting on the agreement to look into 2016 and the Bidens. But what's a big astounding is you say even if true, it's not a crime. What you're suggesting is you and the country should be OK with having our position with regard to Ukraine and Russia depend on whether Ukraine does his bidding about those investigations. He's putting his interests above those of the U.S. It's stunning you think that's OK for POTUS.

What i see so far is that Trump became suspicious of the Bidens involvement in the Ukraine along with some other things going on there related to the russia investigation that he wanted to know more about. Guiliani and Barr both acting their respective capacities went looking around there. Trump acting in his capacity as head of state asked the Ukrainian head of state for the courtosey of assisting them in an area where they have greater authority than we do.

No, not the DoJ - Barr denies any involvement. It's all Trump's personal attorney. That's the point - if we have a problem with the Bidens, we have agencies to investigate. Sure, Ukraine can ASSIST, but we don't outsource investigations of U.S. citizens to corrupt foreign ****holes. Ever.

Im not seeing proof of any wrong doing so far. I just see a bunch of oeople jumping to conclusions

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Denial isn't very persuasive.

 

[ocean515]

White House struggles to contain Ukraine fallout | TheHill

The White House is struggling to contain the fallout from President Trump’s calls for foreign governments to look into matters related to the 2016 election and one of his chief political rivals.

Days after news reports of the initial story, Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) had thrown her support behind an impeachment inquiry.
================================================
The combination of the reconstructed transcript of his phone call to the President of Ukraine together with his public calls for China to investigate the Bidens has just added fuel to the impeachment fire.

They don't appear to be struggling to me. Contain? Contain what?

I think the President realizes the New Democratic Party in the House is going to vote one day, and it might be to impeach. That dies in the Senate.

Until then, he is going to keep doing business as usual, and let the NDP destroy itself with this treasonous nonsense.

 

[ElChupacabra]

over the last year his approval has been at or higher than Obamas at this same time.

Over the last 30 years I have seen one poll where when compared to the election results it error in favor of the GOP.

Take any poll about the GOP especially President Trump, add to the approval and it will be more accurate, the only argument is how much to add.

Take any poll about any Democrat, subtract from the approval and it will be more accurate, the only argument is how much to subtract.

Still weird that despite all of these accomplishments his overall approval rating is so low, no? Its high among Republican voters, but since they represent in the 30% range of voters, that alone isn't enough; the same applies for Democrats. Swing voters are the ones that are going to make that difference.

 

[trouble13]

Out of all the corruption in the United States and the world, Trump just coincidentally picked a pretty normal example that just happened to involve his then likely opponent in 2020? If we can't agree that's laughable, then there's nowhere to go.



The texts indicate all that was waiting on the agreement to look into 2016 and the Bidens. But what's a big astounding is you say even if true, it's not a crime. What you're suggesting is you and the country should be OK with having our position with regard to Ukraine and Russia depend on whether Ukraine does his bidding about those investigations. He's putting his interests above those of the U.S. It's stunning you think that's OK for POTUS.



No, not the DoJ - Barr denies any involvement. It's all Trump's personal attorney. That's the point - if we have a problem with the Bidens, we have agencies to investigate. Sure, Ukraine can ASSIST, but we don't outsource investigations of U.S. citizens to corrupt foreign ****holes. Ever.



Denial isn't very persuasive.

Suspicion is not the equivalent of guilt. You need proof and so far that is missing but by all means i have no objection to Trumps actions being looked at closer. I think its premature to discuss impeachment. I dont see an issue with him asking tor another countries cooperation in a corruption investigation. Ftr i say the same thing to anyone who declares joe biden is guility of anything too. There is not any proof of that either but there is enough suspicion to warrant investigating him.

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[JasperL]

Suspicion is not the equivalent of guilt. You need proof and so far that is missing but by all means i have no objection to Trumps actions being looked at closer. I think its premature to discuss impeachment. I dont see an issue with him asking tor another countries cooperation in a corruption investigation. Ftr i say the same thing to anyone who declares joe biden is guility of anything too. There is not any proof of that either but there is enough suspicion to warrant investigating him.

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You seem determined to ignore that he wasn't asking for cooperation with a U.S. investigation, but for the investigation to be done by the corrupt foreign ****hole country, Ukraine or China. Then he gave his personal attorney the authority of the United States justice system to 'assist' that investigation. Rudy is the extent of U.S. involvement, and he's not in FBI, DoJ, etc. but whose client is Trump, personally, not the U.S.

Rudy Giuliani Plans Ukraine Trip to Push for Inquiries That Could Help Trump - The New York Times

“There’s nothing illegal about it,” [Rudy] said. “Somebody could say it’s improper. And this isn’t foreign policy — I’m asking them to do an investigation that they’re doing already and that other people are telling them to stop. And I’m going to give them reasons why they shouldn’t stop it because that information will be very, very helpful to my client [Trump], and may turn out to be helpful to my government.”

 

[trouble13]

You seem determined to ignore that he wasn't asking for cooperation with a U.S. investigation, but for the investigation to be done by the corrupt foreign ****hole country, Ukraine or China. Then he gave his personal attorney the authority of the United States justice system to 'assist' that investigation. Rudy is the extent of U.S. involvement, and he's not in FBI, DoJ, etc. but whose client is Trump, personally, not the U.S.

Rudy Giuliani Plans Ukraine Trip to Push for Inquiries That Could Help Trump - The New York Times

No point in going round and round over this. I dont see what you see. If democrats see it the way you do they should go ahead and vote to impeach him. Then both sides can make their cases and people can decide for themselves.

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[JasperL]

No point in going round and round over this. I dont see what you see. If democrats see it the way you do they should go ahead and vote to impeach him. Then both sides can make their cases and people can decide for themselves.

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What fact do you dispute, and what is your basis for disputing it? What happened and is in the record isn't actually a matter of opinion.

 

[trouble13]

What fact do you dispute, and what is your basis for disputing it? What happened and is in the record isn't actually a matter of opinion.

What i dispute is your assumptions of his intent. Your claim essentially boils down to you believe Trump extorted another country for the purpose of assisting his re-election campaign. Your voicing your opinion as if its a fact.

It would be like me saying that joe biden extored another country to protect his son from being investigated. That did happen but the intent is only my opinion its not been proven.

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[JasperL]

What i dispute is your assumptions of his intent. Your claim essentially boils down to you believe Trump extorted another country for the purpose of assisting his re-election campaign. Your voicing your opinion as if its a fact.

It's because there is no other conceivable motive for asking TWO foreign countries to investigation "corruption" but only that involving a member of Biden's family, and in one case giving the task to Rudy, his personal attorney, who was helpfully very open about why he's doing it - because it will be very, very helpful to Trump and "may" benefit the U.S.

It's also telling that 1) the WH buried that call in a black hole, and 2) when the investigations were brought up as part of the deal for meetings and aid, Volker killed those written discussions to take them off line. If they're up and up, why hide them?

It would be like me saying that joe biden extored another country to protect his son from being investigated. That did happen but the intent is only my opinion its not been proven.

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Fair enough, but if the U.S. believes Biden abused his office for personal benefit, that is NOT an investigation for Ukraine or China, but for the DoJ public corruption unit, or something similar. We don't outsource criminal investigations of U.S. citizens (i.e. just Trump's likely 2020 opponent) to corrupt foreign hellholes.

 

[Casca XV]

Still weird that despite all of these accomplishments his overall approval rating is so low, no? Its high among Republican voters, but since they represent in the 30% range of voters, that alone isn't enough; the same applies for Democrats. Swing voters are the ones that are going to make that difference.

Like I said take any poll about President Trump, add to the posted approval % and it will be more accurate. His real approval is not that low.