Where do my rights end and yours begin?

[vegas giants]

True, but, statistically, they're very effective, except when it comes to the flu vaccine. It's odd to hear a parent who thinks that his child will not be safe even after that child has been vaccinated. That statement actually works against vaccination, not for it.

Why take the chance

 

[HowardBThiname]

Incorrect on both claims.

How so?

 

[HowardBThiname]

Why take the chance

Because you have a life and hiding away kind of takes the fun out of it.

The greatest death toll annually comes from the flu, and yet most adults still do not get vaccinated. I do, and although I hear that the vaccine is of more or less effectiveness on a yearly basis, once I get my shot I don't avoid those who haven't had theirs.

I never kept my kids (who were vaccinated) away from kids who were not. I understood that the vaccines were highly effective and that my kids were protected.

When you insinuate that even vaccinated kids are not safe -- you're actually slamming the effectiveness of the vaccines.

 

[HowardBThiname]

No vaccination is 100%. Will you spend the day in a room with someone who has the measles even if you have been vaccinated?

Absolutely. Doctors, nurses, mothers, etc. do it all the time.

It's called being a part of the living.

 

[vegas giants]

Because you have a life and hiding away kind of takes the fun out of it.

The greatest death toll annually comes from the flu, and yet most adults still do not get vaccinated. I do, and although I hear that the vaccine is of more or less effectiveness on a yearly basis, once I get my shot I don't avoid those who haven't had theirs.

I never kept my kids (who were vaccinated) away from kids who were not. I understood that the vaccines were highly effective and that my kids were protected.

When you insinuate that even vaccinated kids are not safe -- you're actually slamming the effectiveness of the vaccines.

A person with measles encephalitis may become comatose, and death or brain injury may occur.

I think that would take the life right out of your fun.

 

[Mach]

True, but, statistically, they're very effective, except when it comes to the flu vaccine. It's odd to hear a parent who thinks that his child will not be safe even after that child has been vaccinated. That statement actually works against vaccination, not for it.

Flu vaccinations are not designed to give individual, poorly informed people a false sense of security though, the are designed to significantly improve health outcomes backed by medical studies/science, with very little risk.

They are significantly better than without, which is the point.


They also reduce the severity if you do still get the flu.

Also, a less appreciated reason to have flu shots in the united states is that flu shots in particular ensure that we have a fairly robust pathogen response team/researchers and distribution network that can quickly develop vaccines and distribute them across the entire United States. If there is a deadly virus that crops up again, as many have in history with well documented results, or if god forbid there are biological weapons released in the united states, we have a moderately well-oiled infrastructure that can react. Without that, it would be like FEMA w/Katrina, a giant cluster ****.

 

[vegas giants]

Absolutely. Doctors, nurses, mothers, etc. do it all the time.

It's called being a part of the living.

Its called universal precautions.....and they use them for a reason

 

[ecofarm]

How so?

1. Danger to ones child, or society in general, is the fundamental argument for vacs. It's not rare or odd.

2. Knowing vacs are not 100%, and the purpose is reducing public risk, it's not an argument against them.

 

[HowardBThiname]

A person with measles encephalitis may become comatose, and death or brain injury may occur.

I think that would take the life right out of your fun.

Encephalitis can be caused by various triggers. My daughter had West Nile encephalitis. It was quite painful for her.

But, it's rare for someone with the measles to get encephalitis. Very rare. I certainly (if I was vaccinated) not worry about catching it from someone else.

 

[OscarLevant]

Statistically speaking, we know there are risks associated with vaccines. Most are minimal, of course,

I spoke to someone who was involved with clinical trials, and I posed the question, "do they screen people involved in control groups in the trials to exclude less than healthy subjects? I ask because, in the real world, doctors give out vaccinations like candy, and so, it's an issue of whether ornot the control groups, and their safety records, are reliable given that, in my view, the only way they can be reliable is if they reflect the real world. So, is there "HUB", healthy user bias, in the control groups?" His answer was that the demographics of control groups, getting them to match the real world , given the demographics of volunteers, etc, is not perfect. I got the impression that they are far from perfect, for I put that follow up question to him, his answer was that he didn't know.

So, therein lies the issue, how imperfect are they? and can the safety records of the trials be an accurate predictor in the real world?

The simple answer is no, they cannot. And, you don't have to go very far to find someone whose life was ruined after a vaccination reaction.

That would indicate to me the real dangers are unknown and likely to be a lot worse than the trials would have us believe. So the real issue is, are the dangers worse than the alleged benefits? I don't think it's been absolutely determined, given that, in one column disease are in decline, but in another, they are on the rise.

 

[vegas giants]

Encephalitis can be caused by various triggers. My daughter had West Nile encephalitis. It was quite painful for her.

But, it's rare for someone with the measles to get encephalitis. Very rare. I certainly (if I was vaccinated) not worry about catching it from someone else.

How nice for you

 

[OscarLevant]

Encephalitis can be caused by various triggers. My daughter had West Nile encephalitis. It was quite painful for her.

But, it's rare for someone with the measles to get encephalitis. Very rare. I certainly (if I was vaccinated) not worry about catching it from someone else.

Vaccines are no guarantee of immunity, history is replete with outbreaks in highly vaxxed populations.

 

[vegas giants]

Vaccines are no guarantee of immunity, history is replete with outbreaks in highly vaxxed populations.

Seatbelts are no guarantee you won't be injured. But....buckle up.

 

[jaeger19]

Its a simple question. Do you believe the vaccinations on the CDC vaccination schedule are safe or not? This all have some risk crap is a dodge. There is a risk to a pin prick for a cholesterol test, but that doesn't mean that its a statistically significant one.

As to pediatricians agreeing with you. The practice our kids go to will not see any kids that are not up to date on their vaccinations. The GP I go to will not see any kids that are not up to do with their vaccinations. That is pretty common these days.

No its not a simple question. Just because you don't know enough about vaccinations isn't my fault. It is not crap that they all have risk.. that's a fact. and that risk changes with who you are giving that vaccine to.. and WHAT vaccinations you are talking about.

The practice our kids go to will not see any kids that are not up to date on their vaccinations

Oh.. really. So if your doctor won't see a child that is severely immune suppressed and their previous physician recommended waiting on their MMRV vaccination? What if the child has an immediate issue?

Yeah no.. physicians refusing to see kids because of "not being up to date on their immunizations".. would be a violation of their practice acts.

Now.. a physician that has seen the child,,and has recommended that they get certain vaccinations.. and the parents refuse? now then the physician can refuse to see them because of patient non compliance if they wish. but out of hand deny them regardless of their medical status, issues, and problems simply because they aren;t current? no way.

how else can medical providers get people up to date on their vaccinations IF we refuse to see patients when they are not "up to date"?

 

[jaeger19]

No, you have not correctly interpreted or explained how risk/benefit works. You dont even get the concept, you use it incorrectly.

holy crap yes I have explained it correctly batgirl! I can't help that you apparently can't understand it yourself. You keep throwing it out there and you don't understand what it means!!!!

 

[Lursa]

holy crap yes I have explained it correctly batgirl! I can't help that you apparently can't understand it yourself. You keep throwing it out there and you don't understand what it means!!!!

You can believe that. It doesnt make it true.

 

[HowardBThiname]

1. Danger to ones child, or society in general, is the fundamental argument for vacs. It's not rare or odd.

2. Knowing vacs are not 100%, and the purpose is reducing public risk, it's not an argument against them.

They might not be 100% effective, but they're very effective, and any parent who has a child immunized and then does not allow them to play with a non-immunized child is pretty silly. I think that's called unsubstantiated paranoia, isn't it?

Thank goodness most parents are wiser.

 

[HowardBThiname]

How nice for you

Do you just keep your kids in a bubble? After all, if they go outdoors, they'll be inhaling dust particles or allergens, and that would be awful. Mold under your sink? A veritable disaster waiting to happen!!!

And, heaven forbid you ever let them learn to ride a bike or get their driver's license.

Danger -- lurking behind each and every bush!

I've actually heard about parents like you, but I can't say that I've ever conversed with one before.

 

[vegas giants]

They might not be 100% effective, but they're very effective, and any parent who has a child immunized and then does not allow them to play with a non-immunized child is pretty silly. I think that's called unsubstantiated paranoia, isn't it?

Thank goodness most parents are wiser.

No. I'm sure you have what you think most parents would do wrong

 

[jaeger19]

You can believe that. It doesnt make it true.

That's the point I was making with you.

 

[vegas giants]

Do you just keep your kids in a bubble? After all, if they go outdoors, they'll be inhaling dust particles or allergens, and that would be awful. Mold under your sink? A veritable disaster waiting to happen!!!

And, heaven forbid you ever let them learn to ride a bike or get their driver's license.

Danger -- lurking behind each and every bush!

I've actually heard about parents like you, but I can't say that I've ever conversed with one before.

Boy you sure play it fast and loose with your kids safety. I have seen parents like you....at their kids funerals

 

[Lursa]

That's the point I was making with you.

Except everyone can see what you wrote and see that you dont grasp the risk/benefit concept.

 

[HowardBThiname]

No. I'm sure you have what you think most parents would do wrong

I'm not the one who's afraid to let my vaccinated kids play with non-vaccinated kids.

Heck, when my kids were growing up, they sometimes played with a family of Amish kids -- the horror!

 

[HowardBThiname]

Boy you sure play it fast and loose with your kids safety. I have seen parents like you....at their kids funerals

Nah, my kids all grew up -- very healthy. They got every single one of their vaccines and they had great childhoods (to hear them tell it) as well.

There is a point where parents go too far -- and you went there.

 

[jaeger19]

Except everyone can see what you wrote and see that you dont grasp the risk/benefit concept.

Actually EVERYONE who knows about risk benefit ratios can absolutely see my posts and realize that I understand the concept.

And EVERYONE who knows about risk/benefit ratios.. can absolutely see your posts..and realize that you are throwing that concept out blindly to try and make it look like you know something of the subject.

In fact, I encourage you to take my posts and yours.. print them off when it comes to the discussion of risk benefit ratios.. and go down to your local college science professor.. Anyone that understand risk benefit analysis. Heck it could be an economics professor. ... and then you have a discussion and when they get done telling you that what I said regarding the subject is absolutely spot on.. then you come back to the group.