When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or else"

[Bodi]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

That is what I mean. I’m not stating they don’t have validity (though I do have some hang ups about sociology mainly due to my perspectives coming from study in anthropology). My point is not undermined by that though.

The Muslim man has enough information to determine the guard is sex female. He has a right due to a “sincere religious belief” to request a different guard that IS sex male. That is not a safety concern. Nor is it an unreasonable accommodation. Especially given that if he requests a pork free diet (a much more difficult accommodation), he would get it based on extant legal precedent.

The guard has no legal RIGHT being violated here. The guard is not being refused from his job by any figure of authority. The guard is a government agent in fact. And as such, is exercising a power vested in him by the government. Which means that his “right” to do the job is not actually being trampled. He HAS the job and he WAS given the power. But the RIGHT of the prisoner WAS violated. Period.

I hope the ACLU has their ass on this one. The transgender debate needs some ****ING boundaries on rights of one person vs another. I don’t really give a **** about the inmate and could care less if someone identifies as a potato.

I weep for our future.

Religion should not trump daily routines... the Transgendered guard does the same with all people. I even have a problem with the no pork one for a prisoner. Don't want to have a diet dictated to you then don't break laws and go to prison. I have zero empathy for assholes like that. Religion that is used as a hate card should not be respected ever.

 

[ecofarm]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

Yea. I didn’t think you would have a response. I’m sure you would love to talk about how you are a “doctor and you know what you are doing” lol. People seek second opinions for a reason. I have plenty of education and deal with the legal side of this on application. You don’t have an argument.


The Muslim man has enough information to determine the guard is sex female. He has a right due to a “sincere religious belief” to request a different guard that IS sex male. That is not a safety concern. Nor is it an unreasonable accommodation. Especially given that if he requests a pork free diet (a much more difficult accommodation), he would get it based on extant legal precedent.

The guard has no legal RIGHT being violated here. The guard is not being refused from his job by any figure of authority. The guard is a government agent in fact. And as such, is exercising a power vested in him by the government. Which means that his “right” to do the job is not actually being trampled. He HAS the job and he WAS given the power. But the RIGHT of the prisoner WAS violated. Period.

Can you show me any legal precedent that gives the officer the power to ignore reasonable accommodation of a prisoner?

You don't figure every dumbass understands your side of the debate? But you have no clue where I'm coming from.

 

[Bodi]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

“I’m not intolerant”

“Anyone in group X is stupid and weak minded.”

Yea. That would be intolerance. Bigotry. Whatever the buzzword is.

And human is capiitalized because some People allow their intolerance of differing points of view totally override the concept that the other person they are arguing against is SHOCKINGLY another human being. If you think I give 2 ****s about what gender someone is, you have me mistaken for someone else. I don’t care what SEX someone is unless I’m trying to put my parts in theirs. So I definitely don’t care what gender. Otherwise? They are a just another human. And most humans are self involved assholes who do WANT to do the right thing by others but allow fear and stupidity get in the way.

Intolerance requires a wanting to stop it element to it... that is the only kind that matters because it actually affects others... I am not intolerant. Others can think anything they want even if it is stupid. Your definition means that every single person on the planet is intolerant... because according the the definition we actually all are... and that is just silly and a waste of a term.

 

[tac138777]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

The transgendered person is doing a job... hated to go slippery slope but what is next? Don't want transgendered people delivering your mail or arresting you and touching you putting you in cuffs. Point is they are doing a public job. There is no lack of human decency or civility... jeez, emotional break down much? I could just as easily argue that the prisoner is showing lack of civility and human decency by bitching like a ****ing asshole about a person doing their job.

I argued against your main point already. And I don’t discount slippery slope. That is a legitimate concern in our overly litigious society with ridiculous legal precedents being used to ignore rights as they are intended. Like religious freedom for instance.

But I can use it as well. What stops a male guard from identifying as a female and then getting to touch all the females he wants? How do you even try to pursue him if he IS doing that? What is next? Can’t refuse your doctor based on sex? Even if it is a right and comfort of the patient in mind? You are talking about a human being having to be naked and touched by another. If said person is not comfortable with a member of the opposite sex doing so based on religion? That is their right. Further, it is not unreasonable for them to request that someone else of the same sex do so instead. Especially if a fully capable and trained person of the same sex is right there.

In fact. The argument of “stop whining” could be reversed to the guard. He was not rejected from the work. Life is tough. I have been rejected from doing my job based on my sex as well. It happens. The guard does not get special treatment just because they decide to identify differentlty due to their sex. Acting as if they do ignores that there IS a sex difference that IS recognized by another and IS part of a “serious religious belief.”

 

[ecofarm]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

The transgendered person is doing a job... hated to go slippery slope but what is next? Don't want transgendered people delivering your mail or arresting you and touching you putting you in cuffs. Point is they are doing a public job. There is no lack of human decency or civility... jeez, emotional break down much? I could just as easily argue that the prisoner is showing lack of civility and human decency by bitching like a ****ing asshole about a person doing their job.

You threw "bitching" in there just to annoy me, didn't you.

 

[tac138777]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

You don't figure every dumbass understands your side of the debate? But you have no clue where I'm coming from.

I don’t have to understand where antifa or neo Nazis are “coming from” when they make arguments that would not only tolerate, but encourage violations of people’s rights. So why would you be different? Your education on the topic doesn’t matter.

The guard is a sex female. Based on the man’s religon he is required to reject a sex female from seeing or touching him while naked. The guard does NOT have the authority to ignore legal precedent for reasonable accommodation. You are suggesting that just because the guard is a transgender, their rights give them additional authority or power over another person’s rights. They do not. Nor should they. This debate is not about the “right” of the guard. The guard has the job and is permitted to do so. Period.

Part of being a guard is having to respect the rights of prisoners though. One of those rights is reasonable accomodation due to strongly held religious beliefs. This is LEGAL PRECEDENT AND SETTLED CASE LAW. I gave you the link. You could look it up. Your argument is that the guard can ignore said request because of transgenderism. What possible education or experience could you have that somehow invalidates legal precedent and reasonable accommodation?

You don’t.

 

[tac138777]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

Intolerance requires a wanting to stop it element to it... that is the only kind that matters because it actually affects others... I am not intolerant. Others can think anything they want even if it is stupid. Your definition means that every single person on the planet is intolerant... because according the the definition we actually all are... and that is just silly and a waste of a term.

Like I said. “Intolerant. Bigoted. Whatever the buzzword is.”

End of day you have a problem with religious people based NOT on the content of their character as individuals, but based purely on your preconceived notions. Which would be bigotry. And the view itself that you are espousing is totally illogical based purely on the numbers of and belief structures of the many many many religious people in the world.

“Weak minded.” Lol. Yea. That is an excellent description of the religious lol. (That was sarcasm).

 

[tac138777]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

Religion should not trump daily routines... the Transgendered guard does the same with all people. I even have a problem with the no pork one for a prisoner. Don't want to have a diet dictated to you then don't break laws and go to prison. I have zero empathy for assholes like that. Religion that is used as a hate card should not be respected ever.

So you want to ignore settled case law because you don’t like religious beliefs. I’m glad we have a constitution to protest us from people like you.

 

[Bodi]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

You threw "bitching" in there just to annoy me, didn't you.

As clear as a Black hole, I am...

 

[ecofarm]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

As clear as a Black hole, I am...

I'm gonna let that go because for once you took the intellectual position (not that you're unaware of them). Could be dumb luck, I dunno, but I'm gonna take it.

 

[Bodi]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

So you want to ignore settled case law because you don’t like religious beliefs. I’m glad we have a constitution to protest us from people like you.

Hate is not protected by anything... it is a shame that people can hide behind their religion that preaches hate. That is what should bother you... but hate is OK while my wanting to eliminate it is the problem? Okay... gotchya...

End of day you have a problem with religious people based NOT on the content of their character as individuals, but based purely on your preconceived notions. Which would be bigotry. And the view itself that you are espousing is totally illogical based purely on the numbers of and belief structures of the many many many religious people in the world.

I don't have any problem with religious people... I never said anything close to that, actually.

I am seeing that you have an interesting take on things though... lacking civility and human decency, bigotry, intolerance... these are terms that you toss about regularly. Interesting....

“Weak minded.” Lol. Yea. That is an excellent description of the religious lol. (That was sarcasm).

A better term would be insecure... I should have used that instead.

 

[ecofarm]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

I don’t have to understand where antifa or neo Nazis

Who cares about antifa; is that even real? How can you justify mentioning it in the same sentence with nazis?

 

[Bodi]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

I'm gonna let that go because for once you took the intellectual position. Could be dumb luck, I dunno, but I'm gonna take it.

Take what you can get and steal the rest, as my granddaddy always used to say...

 

[Bodi]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

Who cares about antifa; is that even real? How can you justify mentioning it in the same sentence with nazis?

I read that and thought... da Fuh? :lol:

 

[ecofarm]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

Take what you can get and steal the rest, as my granddaddy always used to say...

You belong in Australia. I suppose nearby is the same. You really found your roots.

 

[tac138777]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

Hate is not protected by anything... it is a shame that people can hide behind their religion that preaches hate. That is what should bother you... but hate is OK while my wanting to eliminate it is the problem? Okay... gotchya...

LMAO! You want to eliminate hate by calling me stupid and weak minded for being religious? You realize how backwards and stupid that sounds right?

I don't have any problem with religious people... I never said anything close to that, actually.

Weak minded and stupid. Grill marks bud.

I am seeing that you have an interesting take on things though... lacking civility and human decency, bigotry, intolerance... these are terms that you toss about regularly. Interesting....

I didn’t make the rules. I’m just playing by them. My ultimate concern is the right of the individual being secure. What you are suggesting we ignore would set precedent to ignore your religious freedom too. I’m sure you don’t want that. I’m about respect and love. You?

A better term would be insecure... I should have used that instead.

Still would be insulting and belittling.

 

[tac138777]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

Who cares about antifa; is that even real? How can you justify mentioning it in the same sentence with nazis?

Yea. I guess I too would be scared of and avoiding debate if my point was founded on violating someone’s rights and my only possible justification would center on either one group having more rights than another, or having a prejudice against someone based on a very small thing.

 

[ecofarm]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

Yea. I guess I too would be scared of and avoiding debate if my point was founded on violating someone’s rights and my only possible justification would center on either one group having more rights than another, or having a prejudice against someone based on a very small thing.

I get your side of the debate. I gave up at your dismissive take on my side. I presented mine and I've no intention of explaining it to you further. If that's conceding and you win, so be it. Gratz. Bodi appears to have taken up the enlightened position by some miracle (not that he's unaware of them, like you), so best of luck with him.

 

[Bodi]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

You belong in Australia. I suppose nearby is the same. You really found your roots.

If you're not cheating you're not trying hard enough to win... that is what granny taught us.

 

[ecofarm]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

If you're not cheating you're not trying hard enough to win... that is what granny taught us.

I gotta tune the joke to you escaping Australia. I could ignore that NZ is a different place, with its own government, and most people wouldn't notice but that's sloppy.

 

[tac138777]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

I get your side of the debate. I gave up at your dismissive take on my side. I presented mine and I've no intention of explaining it to you further. If that's conceding and you win, so be it. Gratz. Bodi appears to have taken up the enlightened position by some miracle (not that he's unaware of them, like you), so best of luck with him.

You didn’t want to give me your position. You wanted to throw a degree down and pretend that your degree invalidated my point. That isn’t discussion. It is an argument from authority. In this case? It is a logical fallacy. Why? Because the discussion isn’t about the guard’s gender. That is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is the guards observed physical sex. And the prisoner’s religious rights.

If you want to state that you are a lawyer practiced in prisoner case law, then by all means do so. But then provide me with the argument that trumps the ACLU position that cites specific case law on prisoner rights for reasonable accommodation. Assuming you are not religious, this particular case should be important to you. You are the proverbial chicken arguing for colonel sanders here. You want to set a precedent that we can ignore reasonable accommodation based on religion. That would not be beneficial to a non religious person. Unless you are also transgender. In which, I don’t care, but even then? You would not be losing ANY rights by promoting religious accommodation.

In fact? You would only benefit yourself. My position of dismissal is due to your refusal to discuss and insistence to dismiss my position because you have an edumacation. I do too. I’m not using it to dismiss anyone’s argument.

 

[Bodi]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

LMAO! You want to eliminate hate by calling me stupid and weak minded for being religious? You realize how backwards and stupid that sounds right?

I NEVER called you weak minded and stupid. I never called anybody that. I said that believing in religion is weak minded an stupid.

Weak minded and stupid. Grill marks bud.

Yeah, but I don't have a problem with them...

I didn’t make the rules. I’m just playing by them. My ultimate concern is the right of the individual being secure. What you are suggesting we ignore would set precedent to ignore your religious freedom too. I’m sure you don’t want that. I’m about respect and love. You?

Rules change... as they should.

Still would be insulting and belittling.

That is argumentative...

 

[Bodi]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

I gotta tune the joke to you escaping Australia. I could ignore that NZ is a different place, with its own government, and most people wouldn't notice but that's sloppy.

You could say something about me getting lost on my way to Australia or that the prison ship ran aground here and I escaped...

 

[Bodi]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

You didn’t want to give me your position. You wanted to throw a degree down and pretend that your degree invalidated my point. That isn’t discussion. It is an argument from authority. In this case? It is a logical fallacy. Why? Because the discussion isn’t about the guard’s gender. That is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is the guards observed physical sex. And the prisoner’s religious rights.

If you want to state that you are a lawyer practiced in prisoner case law, then by all means do so. But then provide me with the argument that trumps the ACLU position that cites specific case law on prisoner rights for reasonable accommodation. Assuming you are not religious, this particular case should be important to you. You are the proverbial chicken arguing for colonel sanders here. You want to set a precedent that we can ignore reasonable accommodation based on religion. That would not be beneficial to a non religious person. Unless you are also transgender. In which, I don’t care, but even then? You would not be losing ANY rights by promoting religious accommodation.

In fact? You would only benefit yourself. My position of dismissal is due to your refusal to discuss and insistence to dismiss my position because you have an edumacation. I do too. I’m not using it to dismiss anyone’s argument.

Ecofarm's point was very clear... you seemed to avoid it by discussing intolerance.

 

[danielpalos]

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

Muslim Male Inmate Objects to Strip Search by Apparently Anatomically Female Transgender Guard


The Muslim part is apparently included because the lawsuit is based on the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act, but I find it pretty much irrelevant. The conduct appears to violate 28 CFR 115.15 (regulations implementing the Prison Rape Elimination Act of 2003) on its face.

Thoughts? Should prison inmates (including jail detainees who've only been arrested, not even convicted) be forced to take their clothes off in front of someone who is the opposite sex simply because they claim to "identify" with the other sex? Should a female detainee be forced to take off her clothes in front of a male officer who says, gruffly, "don't worry, I identify as a woman"?

I agree to no longer have any Cause for complaint by getting nude in front of females, in modern times; in that situation.