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What should the minimum wage be, or should we not have one at all?

There's no need to cite wealth data, and then rely on a supposed correlation between income and wealth. You can just directly cite data on income. But of course, that's not as dramatic.

There are plenty of ways in which the correlation between income and wealth breaks down, so why rely on it when actual income data is available?
Because it is disingenuous.

We could rely on metrics from CEO's who don't get "paid what their work is worth", but get paid what the value or wealth of the Firm is; labor should get that same formula for wages.
 
minimum wage is a big topic right now and I'd like to see everyone's ideas.

$15/hour seems a bit low, considering all the rising costs due to government taxation on everything that moves in efforts to pay unsustainable government debts. Why not make it $100/hour if raising the minimum wage will not affect the vitality of the economy?
 
Because it is disingenuous.

We could rely on metrics from CEO's who don't get "paid what their work is worth", but get paid what the value or wealth of the Firm is; labor should get that same formula for wages.

Makes no sense. Tell me again how is it disingenuous to use readily available income data in a discussion about income, instead of using wealth data, when wealth is a product of numerous other factors?
 
Makes no sense. Tell me again how is it disingenuous to use readily available income data in a discussion about income, instead of using wealth data, when wealth is a product of numerous other factors?

If management is compensated via any metrics from valuation, so should Labor.
 
If management is compensated via any metrics from valuation, so should Labor.

Once again, that has nothing to do with my question, and it's also nonsense. People should get paid what their willing to work for. A CEO is responsible for the valuation of a company. The guy who scrubs the toilets is not.
 
Once again, that has nothing to do with my question, and it's also nonsense. People should get paid what their willing to work for. A CEO is responsible for the valuation of a company. The guy who scrubs the toilets is not.

How much actual sweat of his brow? Anything else is merely about lucre not morals.
 
How much actual sweat of his brow? Anything else is merely about lucre not morals.

I guess you're completely incapable of addressing the actual topic. Wake me up when that changes.
 
So, to be clear, you actually have no response whatsoever to the data point that the reason the "middle class" is shrinking is because more people are becoming wealthy, other than a pretty entertainingly desperate attempt to pivot to ad homineming the Koch's?
Color me shocked that the AEI would produce such a misleading set of charts. It's called "manipulating the metrics". If the data does not support your conclusion, change the metrics. In this case, by specifically defining the "middle class" to include half of fourth "quintile", and using "2016" as the comparator.

If, instead, one were to look at the real world, say, like the CBO does, one would learn that
What Are the Trends in Household Income and Income Inequality?
According to CBO’s estimates, average household income before transfers and taxes was almost 60 percent higher in 2016 than it was in 1979 in real (inflation-adjusted) terms—reflecting an average growth rate of 1.3 percent per year. That growth, however, was not the same across the income distribution. For the lowest quintile and the middle three quintiles, it was 33 percent (or 0.8 percent per year), but for the highest quintile, it was 99 percent (or 1.9 percent per year). For the top 1 percent of the income distribution, it was 218 percent (or 3.2 percent per year). Because of those differences in growth rates, income inequality was greater in 2016 than it was in 1979 (see the interactive graphic below).
The Distribution of Household Income, 2016 What the charts conveniently obscure is the increase in disparity:
Some Americans Moving Up, Others Down
“In part, the shift out of the middle class is a sign of economic progress, irrespective of changes in household incomes overall,” author Rakesh Kochhar, the center’s associate director for research, noted in the report. “This is because the outward shift is accompanied by a move up the income ladder, into the upper-income tier, in all countries with a shrinking middle class.”

But, he added, more ominously: “At the same time, there is movement down the income ladder in most countries with a shrinking middle class.”
America's Slowly Disappearing Middle Class (Investopedia) And, because of the charts' conveniently broad "class" definitions, they fail to account for the growing disparity within the classes. What Is Considered Middle Class Income? (The Balance) Of course, one of the most important misdirections is looking only at income and not wealth.
Many experts warn that income is not the best way to define the middle class. For example, many people don't have a high income but they still can afford a high standard of living by living off of their wealth. To define a class based on wealth, the middle class is the middle three-fifths of the wealth spectrum. Those with zero wealth or less are in debt. Those in the highest fifth are wealthy. New York University Professor Edward Wolff developed the wealth definition.
See also What is middle class, anyway? (CNN Business); Why the middle class is shrinking (MarketWatch).
Real, disposable incomes for the middle class have not grown since the middle of last decade, while incomes for the top 10% are hitting new highs, the OECD calculates. This isn’t how it always works. In the previous decade, from the mid-1990s to the mid-2000s, median real disposable incomes rose by about 17% in richer countries.

The middle classes are getting squeezed particularly hard by the rising costs of education, health care and housing, the OECD writes. College fees are up, in the U.S. and elsewhere. Homes are much more expensive relative to incomes.

Meanwhile, technology and global competition are destroying many middle class careers, it adds. Higher skills are no longer passports to good jobs and incomes, it says. “Middle-skill workers are now more likely to be in the lower-income class and less likely to be middle income,” it says. “Highly skilled workers are also less likely to make it to the higher-income class.”
 
Color me shocked that the AEI would produce such a misleading set of charts. It's called "manipulating the metrics". If the data does not support your conclusion, change the metrics. In this case, by specifically defining the "middle class" to include half of fourth "quintile", and using "2016" as the comparator.

If, instead, one were to look at the real world, say, like the CBO does, one would learn that The Distribution of Household Income, 2016 What the charts conveniently obscure is the increase in disparity: America's Slowly Disappearing Middle Class (Investopedia) And, because of the charts' conveniently broad "class" definitions, they fail to account for the growing disparity within the classes. What Is Considered Middle Class Income? (The Balance) Of course, one of the most important misdirections is looking only at income and not wealth. See also What is middle class, anyway? (CNN Business); Why the middle class is shrinking (MarketWatch).
... I'll admit, I've never understood this obsession on the left, or the weird arguments it pushes you into. Please explain how you think rising incomes among the top 1% mean that rising incomes among the middle/upper middle class somehow, magically, didn't occur.
 
We should not need a statutory minimum wage with compensation for capitalism's natural rate of unemployment in our at-will employment States.
 
so what. that only means something to the "economically challenged" right wing. The rest of us know, equal protection of the law can correct for Capitalism's natural rate of unemployment in a market friendly manner with existing legal and physical infrastructure on an at-will basis in our at-will employment States.

So what?

A system is created that both increases productivity and decreases cost.

Here is a clue.

For the most part companies / corporations exist to provide a service/product and make a profit.

They do not exist simply to provide make work positions.

The rest of your Concept Stew is ignored.
 
... I'll admit, I've never understood this obsession on the left, or the weird arguments it pushes you into. Please explain how you think rising incomes among the top 1% mean that rising incomes among the middle/upper middle class somehow, magically, didn't occur.

I'll admit, I've never understood the obsession on "the right" about manipulating data when the facts don't fit preconceived notions... ;) (Wanna stick to reality with me, or do you prefer name calling and stereotyping?)

The meager growth for everyone but the top quintile is the point. Wealth disparity is far more significant than income growth, anyway, but it'd be nice if you read and digested the citations before popping off.
growth, however, was not the same across the income distribution. For the lowest quintile and the middle three quintiles, it was 33 percent (or 0.8 percent per year), but for the highest quintile, it was 99 percent (or 1.9 percent per year). For the top 1 percent of the income distribution, it was 218 percent (or 3.2 percent per year). Because of those differences in growth rates, income inequality was greater in 2016 than it was in 1979 (see the interactive graphic below).
That disparity has grown far worse since. How is that happening?
The middle classes are getting squeezed particularly hard by the rising costs of education, health care and housing, the OECD writes. College fees are up, in the U.S. and elsewhere. Homes are much more expensive relative to incomes.
The short answer to the complicated question is that they are getting paid more but benefiting less. A .08 percent pay raise is all well and good except when expenses rise 2%. In the real world, that means moving backwards.

There are really two faults in the "analysis" you provided. The first is that the data is deliberately skewed to obscure its "meaning/import". This is a classic methodology of AEI. They tend to lump "classes" together to paint a rosier picture, and change the framework to reach their conclusion. Finer granularity in detail would not support their generalizations. For example, using $35,000 as the bottom of "middle class" is ridiculously low, as is $100,000 as the "top". Note that they didn't use income quintiles or poverty figures in picking this arbitrary measure. Wonder why?

The second fault is that they only used general "inflation". Over such a short period (2016-2019) THAT is almost meaningless. Specific costs (e.g., health care, education, housing) are far more significant. Getting a $300 raise (or tax cut) is all well and good, except when health care costs go up $1000, housing goes up $100, and education remains unaffordable. Get the picture?
 
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... I'll admit, I've never understood this obsession on the left, or the weird arguments it pushes you into. Please explain how you think rising incomes among the top 1% mean that rising incomes among the middle/upper middle class somehow, magically, didn't occur.

Wages for the Poor didn't double.
 
So what?

A system is created that both increases productivity and decreases cost.

Here is a clue.

For the most part companies / corporations exist to provide a service/product and make a profit.

They do not exist simply to provide make work positions.

The rest of your Concept Stew is ignored.

There is no concept stew, only Your lack of comprehension; coincidence or conspiracy.

There are no make work positions since the unemployed could ask for unemployment compensation for simply being unemployed.
 
There is no concept stew, only Your lack of comprehension; coincidence or conspiracy.

There are no make work positions since the unemployed could ask for unemployment compensation for simply being unemployed.

Concept stew is when you string together talking points that have little to no relation to each other and do not address the subject.

You do it often.

There are no make work positions because it is stupid for a corporation to maintain them. It has nothing to do with unemployment compensation.
 
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