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What is the "Deep State" any way?

Sounds to me like you are describing people who don't want to do the work they were hired to do. In most organizations, those people tend to get fired.

and that is one of the things unique about the 'deep state' of public employees. as long as they do their jobs according to laws, rules, and regulations, they cannot be punished for failing to engage in those things which violate the standard operating procedures
and there tends to be a lot of gray area to work within. those employees who have been doing the job for years know how to exploit that gray area to make apolitical determinations
 
and that is one of the things unique about the 'deep state' of public employees. as long as they do their jobs according to laws, rules, and regulations, they cannot be punished for failing to engage in those things which violate the standard operating procedures
and there tends to be a lot of gray area to work within. those employees who have been doing the job for years know how to exploit that gray area to make apolitical determinations

Yes, that is why the deep state is so hard to get rid of.
 
Sounds to me like you are describing people who don't want to do the work they were hired to do. In most organizations, those people tend to get fired.

Sounds to me like you think they are suppose to behave as vassals to Trump
 
Sounds to me like you think they are suppose to behave as vassals to Trump

They work for the President.

Tell me, if you don't like your boss, would you work behind the scenes to disrupt his company policies and actions? Would it bother you if he fired you for doing that?
 
They work for the President.

Tell me, if you don't like your boss, would you work behind the scenes to disrupt his company policies and actions? Would it bother you if he fired you for doing that?

Tell me if you're boss demands you to do something that is unethical and or illegal are you obligated to do it because he's your boss?
 
Eh, there is essentially a deep state. It's just not this shadowy orchestrated and organized apparatus that the brietbart folks present it as, nor is it inherently "anti-Trump".

At most, it may be organized to a point within an agency or within a sector of government (such as the intelligence community), but even then it's typically focused less around some attempt to thwart or circumvent a President and more focused on dealing with the core missions of any given agency, and assuring that continues seemlessly, regardless of what changes occur at the top (i.e. President or political appointees).

The reason, at times, this may manifest in a way that seems "anti-Trump" right now is that you have instances where the Trump Administration has been taking steps to actively stop and/or hinder agencies from engaging in what these employees view as their core missions, and thus action is taken to find ways to continue to do that despite Trump Administration desires. Such instances, however, are less about being "Anti-Trump" as they are about being pro-agency. As is normal in all sectors of life, people within a particular job tend to become defensive and resistant to change that threatens their jobs existance.


I'm 67, and if this were a real thing, I would have heard about it years ago. It's only since coming to the fore of Bannon/ Brietbart, etc., that any talk of deep state has reached my ears. Therefore, I hold the concept as propaganda on the right, by conspiracy loons.
 
i disagree, having been a member of that deep state until retirement during dubya's administration
it's the civil servants who have sworn to uphold the Constitution. while they are led by those who received political appointments, the deep state civil servants adhere strictly to the laws, regulations, and standard operation procedures as they are written
and they get away with doing the peoples' work the right way because they are largely insulated from termination for political reasons (thanks to the wide unionization of government employees and whistleblower laws)
this is what allows our federal government to operate with minimal disruption no matter what party is in control of the white house
and i can see why a president who thrives on chaos would paint such stability due to a deep state as a negative thing



There are people in government doing a job, so what else is new?

The "deep state" concept, heck, in my 67 years, I never heard it ever mentioned until Bannon came along.

there are people in gov doing their job, that's not being disputed, it's the "concept/term" that I'm saying merely a propaganda term of the right of recent years.
 
I'm 67, and if this were a real thing, I would have heard about it years ago. It's only since coming to the fore of Bannon/ Brietbart, etc., that any talk of deep state has reached my ears. Therefore, I hold the concept as propaganda on the right, by conspiracy loons.

I think for what it's being used for currently, it is certainly conspiracy theory propaganda. But the concept itself, I think is sound. There certainly are structures and agencies, and personnel who work rather high up in government, but not in elected positions, and that have long standing stability. In general terms, that's what is the "deep state". As Zyphlin states, though, it's not some shadowing, Illuminati sort of organization that is pulling all the strings behind the scene. But rather some established, and stable bureaucracy that must always exist in any sophisticated government structure.

The Trump-Right have just abducted the term, and try to use it now as an excuse for Trump's ineptness, and they do use it in a conspiratorial sense.
 
Tell me if you're boss demands you to do something that is unethical and or illegal are you obligated to do it because he's your boss?

Well, you didn't answer my question. I'm not surprised. But I'll answer yours: No...you are free to refuse, you are free to quit working for him and your boss is free to fire you.
 
They work for the President.

That is a flawed dichotomy. They don't work at the behest of the president per-se like an appointee does.

They work for the United States government, regardless of who is in the White House.
 
That is a flawed dichotomy. They don't work at the behest of the president per-se like an appointee does.

They work for the United States government, regardless of who is in the White House.

They work for the Executive Branch of the US government. The President is the Chief Executive of the Executive Branch. They don't get to decide if they agree or not with the President and let that motivation influence their work.
 
The 'Deep State' theroy has always existed. A long time ago, people called it the MIC...the Military Industrial Complex...you know....those who REALLY run the government. People claim Skull and Bones members have been working in the shadows manipulating government. Its been called the Shadow Government, or the New World Order, or any other number of conspiracies.

I think Bubba is most correct though I dont necessarily agree their intent is necessarily constitutional or benevolent. I think those deeply entrenched government workers operate in a manner THEY think best fits the country and they interpret both the laws and Constitution as it fits their agendas.

In the military its not uncommon to see models of this on military installations. Mission Commanders come and go every 2-3 years. The Mission Commander is 'in charge'...but there are often directors and civilians that have been there forever and know all they have to do is wait out a new commander and they can keep things running how they best see fit.

Sure...with Trump in office the Deep State conspiracy has taken new root. Its comments like this...

“I want to believe the path you threw out for consideration in Andy’s office — that there’s no way he gets elected — but I’m afraid we can’t take that risk. It’s like an insurance policy in the unlikely event you die before you’re 40.”

among senior FBI personnel that tend to add fuel to the fire.
 
They work for the Executive Branch of the US government. The President is the Chief Executive of the Executive Branch. They don't get to decide if they agree or not with the President and let that motivation influence their work.

What proof do you have that they are allowing it to influence their work? Seeing as though a great many of them have previously served under multiple administrations. Both Democrat and Republican. They are called civil servants because they are there to serve to people no matter which party happens to be power. But they aren't robots either. They are human beings with their own emotions and opinions and probably gripe about their bosses just like everybody else. But they continue to do their jobs just like everybody else as well. Because that's what you do.
 
Not too long ago I created a thread asking if Hannity considered former president George W. Bush part of the "Deep State". I asked this because Hannity used to defend Bush all the time similar to the way he now defends Trump (though I think he actually worships Trump, but that's a topic for another thread). So, what is the "Deep State" any way, and who is part of it? I know right wing pundits include pretty much ANY Democrat as part of the "Deep State", and apparently Republicans like Mueller and Comey, and also the entire FBI are part of the "Deep State". But what about McConnell? Ryan? Cruz? Rubio? Even Mike Pence? Are they part of the "Deep State"? Maybe Sessions is? Is the "Deep State" basically ANYONE who dares to oppose the almighty Donald Trump? Inquiring minds want to know.

The deep state is when a polarized party appoints members to government that are similar to their own ideologies and then those appointees then hire more of the same. Since Obama was in for eight years government was saturated with liberals who then go on to attack Trump when Hillary lost. It is more pronounced in modern times because there is more gridlock and extreme partisanship. If Trump were to be in for eight years he would get rid of Obama's deep state and replace it with his own deep state, who in return would give the 2024 Democratic president a hard time. When government was less polarized the deep state was not as deep as it is these days.
 
The deep state is when a polarized party appoints members to government that are similar to their own ideologies and then those appointees then hire more of the same. Since Obama was in for eight years government was saturated with liberals who then go on to attack Trump when Hillary lost. It is more pronounced in modern times because there is more gridlock and extreme partisanship. If Trump were to be in for eight years he would get rid of Obama's deep state and replace it with his own deep state, who in return would give the 2024 Democratic president a hard time. When government was less polarized the deep state was not as deep as it is these days.

I rather have the deep state than the spoils system.
 
What proof do you have that they are allowing it to influence their work? Seeing as though a great many of them have previously served under multiple administrations. Both Democrat and Republican. They are called civil servants because they are there to serve to people no matter which party happens to be power. But they aren't robots either. They are human beings with their own emotions and opinions and probably gripe about their bosses just like everybody else. But they continue to do their jobs just like everybody else as well. Because that's what you do.

You haven't been listening to anybody. The definition of deep state isn't just that they are government employees, but that they are government employees who use their positions to advance their personal agenda...regardless whether it supports the current administration or not. When their personal agenda does support the current administration, there's no problem...except when they circumvent laws. When their personal agenda does NOT support the current administration, there is a BIG problem.

They don't GET to decide what serves people. They are there to serve the current administration, their superiors and the law.

As far as proof is concerned, there are many proven instances. Most common is leaks. We already have a number of criminal cases against leakers who passed classified info to the media. We have a number of people fired for leaking (though the customary process is to just say they "resigned") There are also upcoming criminal cases against know deep state operatives in the works. Think...McCabe.
 
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The deep state is when a polarized party appoints members to government that are similar to their own ideologies and then those appointees then hire more of the same. Since Obama was in for eight years government was saturated with liberals who then go on to attack Trump when Hillary lost. It is more pronounced in modern times because there is more gridlock and extreme partisanship. If Trump were to be in for eight years he would get rid of Obama's deep state and replace it with his own deep state, who in return would give the 2024 Democratic president a hard time. When government was less polarized the deep state was not as deep as it is these days.

The Seven Mountains

https://www.generals.org/rpn/the-seven-mountains/
 
You haven't been listening to anybody. The definition of deep state isn't just that they are government employees, but that they are government employees who use their positions to advance their personal agenda...regardless whether it supports the current administration or not. When their personal agenda does support the current administration, there's no problem...except when they circumvent laws. When their personal agenda does NOT support the current administration, there is a BIG problem.

They don't GET to decide what serves people. They are there to serve the current administration, their superiors and the law.

As far as proof is concerned, there are many proven instances. Most common is leaks. We already have a number of criminal cases against leakers who passed classified info to the media. We have a number of people fired for leaking (though the customary process is to just say they "resigned") There are also upcoming criminal cases against know deep state operatives in the works. Think...McCabe.

That's BS. You nor anyone else has any proof of this. When these people were sworn in they swore an oath to our country and to our constitution. Not to the President. The only part you got right is upholding the law and it's becoming pretty clear that upholding the law isn't a priority for this particular administration.
 
That's BS. You nor anyone else has any proof of this. When these people were sworn in they swore an oath to our country and to our constitution. Not to the President. The only part you got right is upholding the law and it's becoming pretty clear that upholding the law isn't a priority for this particular administration.

LOL!!

Tell that to McCabe.
 
Not too long ago I created a thread asking if Hannity considered former president George W. Bush part of the "Deep State". I asked this because Hannity used to defend Bush all the time similar to the way he now defends Trump (though I think he actually worships Trump, but that's a topic for another thread). So, what is the "Deep State" any way, and who is part of it? I know right wing pundits include pretty much ANY Democrat as part of the "Deep State", and apparently Republicans like Mueller and Comey, and also the entire FBI are part of the "Deep State". But what about McConnell? Ryan? Cruz? Rubio? Even Mike Pence? Are they part of the "Deep State"? Maybe Sessions is? Is the "Deep State" basically ANYONE who dares to oppose the almighty Donald Trump? Inquiring minds want to know.

The GOP controls pretty much all aspects of government. From governorships to state legislatures to SCOTUS to Senate to the House to the White House. The "deep state" is their attempt at a scapegoat when people don't like the direction the country is going in under their leadership.

Deep state whining = GOP lack of personal responsibility
 
LOL!!

Tell that to McCabe.

Explain this for me then. If McCabe, Comey, Strzok or Page were engaged in this 'deep state' conspiracy against Trump. Why then after Comey's announcement that he was reopening the Clinton email investigation just 11 days before the election began receiving wall to wall coverage. Possibly tilting the election in Trump's favor. While also not disclosing the fact that the FBI had begun an investigation into the Trump Campaign. Why didn't they, or anyone else in the FBI for that matter, tip off the Times or the Post of the existence of the of that investigation to even the score when they easily could have done so? But neither they or anyone else did. Because that is how it really works
 
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