WH memo: No mention of imminent threat

[Oozlefinch]

About innocent people killed? Yes.

Where is the outrage about Neda? Where is the at those killed by the government even now?

They obviously do not care about over 1,500 of their own people the government had killed. And you do not either it seems.

 

[Lursa]

Where is the outrage about Neda? Where is the at those killed by the government even now?

They obviously do not care about over 1,500 of their own people the government had killed. And you do not either it seems.

Off-topic.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Off-topic.

Translation: I only want to talk about the death of people I want to talk about. I have absolutely no problem ignoring even more deaths unless it supports my prejudices.

It's OK, I am used to this. I just wish people would stop putting these blatant political topics in the military section.

 

[braindrain]

My heart just aches for all the people on that airliner that died unnecessarily, prompted by our attack.

Does you heart also ache for the families of around 1000 US service members that Iran has killed.

 

[braindrain]

Please point out where I said Iran was justified in killing hundreds of Americans.

Second, General Wesley Clark was and remains a highly respected military veteran, and furthermore his statements were corroborated by numerous others. If you believe he is lying I'm sure you can provide some proof of it.



Are you denying that we worked with Iran for a brief period after 9/11?

I don’t need to prove he is lying as he has never proved any evidence of this memo that he first claimed was a plan then later said it wasn’t.

Where did I deny that. Can you quote me doing so.

 

[braindrain]

Braindrain:

Way to go, Braindrain. Congratulations! You completely missed the point of my post and laminated over it your own biases and preconceptions. Soleimani was an officer in the Iranian Military. His assassination was an act of war against Iran (and Iraq too). No state of war exists between either Iran or Iraq and the US Government. The POTUS does not have the power to commit acts of war without Congressional authorisation, unless and only unless, there is an imminent threat to the United States. When challenged on this point President Trump lied, claiming there was an imminent threat. He acted illegally according to US law and the US constitution. The memo proves there was no consideration of imminent threat before the attacks were ordered an launched and other evidence points to the assassination as being an attack of opportunity coordinated with another assassination attempt against an Iranian officer in Yemen, which failed. Thus President Trump violated the US constitution, a crime. He lied to cover up that crime, another crime.

That was the point of my post, which you so completely missed or chose to ignore.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

And as usual you only see fault with the US

He was an officer in an organization that was declared a terrorist organization and he was actively working to conduct more attacks on Americans.
It’s funny how you see the US killing that POS and act of war but somehow Iran killing US soldiers is not an act a war.

I wonder why you have such a double standard. Actually I don’t wonder that. Your hate for America has been all to obvious since you came to this site. You only seem to think it’s not.

The fact that are all to willing to bend over backwards to defend Iran who conducts terror all over the world as well as kills any of its own people who step out of line all just to attack America is just disgusting.

 

[Oozlefinch]

I don’t need to prove he is lying as he has never proved any evidence of this memo that he first claimed was a plan then later said it wasn’t.

Most of the respect for General Clark vanished when he was relieved from SACEUR after he ordered NATO forces to attack a Russian peacekeeping force in Kosovo. He was pretty much relieved of all duties, and soon retired. And that was not the first time he had given at best questionable orders, just the worst of them. Many questioned that a lot of the severity of the attacks he ordered during the Civil War in former Yugoslavia were primarily because Slobodan Milošević laughed at him when he threatened to bomb him unless he agreed to a UN cease fire.

And in the years since, his credibility has fallen even lower. First disagreeing with the drawdown in the Balkans (which was a key Clinton policy), then against Iraq. He now leads a major PAC, which is a large backer of the Democratic Party. And every time I hear him speak out, it is almost entirely political in motivation, not militarily.

And if anybody is pissed at what the President said about Senator McCain, do not forget that that really started years earlier during the Clark-McCain feud of 2008:

Well, I don't think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be president.

"Attacking" McCain's Military Record - Columbia Journalism Review

He may have been "respected", but now most just see him as yet another fallen General, who is now just another political hack.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Soleimani was an officer in the Iranian Military. His assassination was an act of war against Iran (and Iraq too).

Here is my question.

Since 2014, Iran has denied any military involvement in Iraq. They claim they have no forces in that country, even after some are killed.

But act of war? Nope, no more than if the US killed a Soviet advisor in Vietnam, or a Chinese advisor in Korea. That simply is something that happens in a war zone. Especially in one that the other country claims it is not involved in.

 

[Lursa]

Translation: I only want to talk about the death of people I want to talk about. I have absolutely no problem ignoring even more deaths unless it supports my prejudices.

It's OK, I am used to this. I just wish people would stop putting these blatant political topics in the military section.

Yup...the ones affected by this OP. Or we can talk about when the Persians killed people back hundreds of yrs ago too. :roll: And I wasnt just referring to innocent Iranians, there were other people on that flight, including more than 60 Canadians.

 

[Lursa]

Does you heart also ache for the families of around 1000 US service members that Iran has killed.

More moving goal posts. Did you have something to discuss related to the OP? You know, actual discussion in a discussion forum :roll:

 

[Evilroddy]

And as usual you only see fault with the US

He was an officer in an organization that was declared a terrorist organization and he was actively working to conduct more attacks on Americans.
It’s funny how you see the US killing that POS and act of war but somehow Iran killing US soldiers is not an act a war.

I wonder why you have such a double standard. Actually I don’t wonder that. Your hate for America has been all to obvious since you came to this site. You only seem to think it’s not.

The fact that are all to willing to bend over backwards to defend Iran who conducts terror all over the world as well as kills any of its own people who step out of line all just to attack America is just disgusting.

Braindrain:

The US POTUS broke American law. Attacking Iranian military officers directly using American military assets is an act of war. So is attacking Iraqi militias in their barracks and Iraqi officers in the motorcade from the Baghdad Airport in which Maj. Gen. Soleimani was killed. These were acts of war and the memo clearly illustrates there was no imminent threat. This President Trump had no right to launch these attacks without Congressional authority beforehand. Therefore the US president clearly broke US law in ordering the attacks on Iraqi militias (which have been legally incorporated into the Iraqi armed forces) and the two Iranian officers in Iraq and Yemen. The fact that the US Government has branded a part of the Iranian military a terrorist organisation does not get Mr. Trump off the hook for breaking American law and lying about it. The Government of Iran has declared the US military a terrorist organisation. Following your logic then all American military personnel are fair game for Iran because of this declaration. But clearly they are not. Nor are Iranian military officers unless you are in a state of declared war with Iran, which the USA is not.

Iran has been using proxies to kill and wound US military personnel, it has not done the killing and wounding directly like the US Government has done (except for the missile strikes in retaliation for the US assassinations). So Iran has done what it has done with second-hand distance unlike Mr. Trump's direct strikes. This plausible deniability, while a fig-leaf, is at least a small barrier making Iranian special operations slightly less illegal than Mr. Trump's direct attacks.

Finally US troops have no legitimate business being openly in Iraq and Syria and covertly in Yemen, so attacks by local populations, supported by Iranian special forces and intelligence assets are a legal act of military resistance to an illegally occupying military force. Get the heck out of Syria, Yemen and Iraq and the killing and maiming will decrease. You can dominate the region from your legal bases in Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar and Turkey. Just get out, you're not wanted there and your military presence in these three countries is destabilising the whole region.

Finally your insulting tone is of no consequence as I have very tough skin. So whine and complain all you want about my posts, but they will not stop. In this case (and in many others) the American military and the American POTUS were in the wrong and were in violation of US law. No amount of crying or recrimination on your part will change that, so please grow up and conduct yourself like a reasonable adult rather than a petulant child in a tantrum.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

 

[Evilroddy]

Here is my question.

Since 2014, Iran has denied any military involvement in Iraq. They claim they have no forces in that country, even after some are killed.

But act of war? Nope, no more than if the US killed a Soviet advisor in Vietnam, or a Chinese advisor in Korea. That simply is something that happens in a war zone. Especially in one that the other country claims it is not involved in.

Oozlefinch:

Your facts are wrong. Iran claims it has no regular forces in Iraq. It openly admits the presence of Iranian militias (paramilitary) in Iraq and in Syria which were fighting ISIL forces in conjunction with Kurdish and US-led Coalition forces from 2014 until recently. That lack of military as opposed to paramilitary does not extend to Iranian "advisors" helping Iraqi militias however, nor does it apply to Iranian military officers visiting Iraq on official or diplomatic missions. So your first contention is demonstrably false.

As no state of war exists between Iraq or Iran and the USA, Mr. Trump's direct military attacks against Iraqi militia barracks and Iranian military officers in Iraq and Yemen were indeed acts of war against those two states. This is why Iraqis and the Iraqi Government are demanding US military and all foreign forces under US leadership leave Iraq. This is also why Iran launched missile strikes in retaliation for US acts of war against military bases in Iraq which hosted US-led Coalition forces. Mr. Trump and the US military brass understood this and chose to deescalate rather than progress to full on war.

So I can't answer your question because it is rooted in incorrect information and is therefore not a valid question.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Yup...the ones affected by this OP. Or we can talk about when the Persians killed people back hundreds of yrs ago too. :roll: And I wasnt just referring to innocent Iranians, there were other people on that flight, including more than 60 Canadians.

In other words, you only care about political things. You really do not care one way or another about dead people. As I said, only when they suit you political purpose or goals.

Me, I care about all people, and could not give a damn about politics.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Oozlefinch:

Your facts are wrong. Iran claims it has no regular forces in Iraq. It openly admits the presence of Iranian militias (paramilitary) in Iraq and in Syria which were fighting ISIL forces in conjunction with Kurdish and US-led Coalition forces from 2014 until recently.

When you are talking about the Iranian Revolutionary Guard, you are talking about the Iranian Military. There is no difference between Military and Paramilitary in that instance. It is a branch of their Armed forces, just as the Marine Corps is a branch of the US Armed Forces.

And because the Revolutionary Guard is tasked with more political targets, it is not much different than the SS or Waffen-SS in Third Reich era Germany.

Would you so easily dismiss this if it was say the SS being sent into Holland? That because it was Waffen-SS and not the Wehrmacht?

This is what I am finding so funny, so many are trying really hard to make some kind of false connection. Iran has no "Regular Forces" is just semantics. If we sent large numbers of Green Berets and Navy SEALs in, they also would not be "Regular Forces". But nobody would be trying to deny we had military forces involved.

Armed Forces of the Islamic Republic of Iran - Wikipedia

 

[braindrain]

Yup...the ones affected by this OP. Or we can talk about when the Persians killed people back hundreds of yrs ago too. :roll: And I wasnt just referring to innocent Iranians, there were other people on that flight, including more than 60 Canadians.

You think killing a person who has directly worked to kill hundreds of Americans is the same thing as using something that happened hundreds of years ago.
Please don’t hurt your back bending so far over backwards to defend the Iranians who hundreds of American families grieving the loss of their sons and daughters.

But no attacking trump is much more important.

 

[braindrain]

More moving goal posts. Did you have something to discuss related to the OP? You know, actual discussion in a discussion forum :roll:

What goal post did I move. Please be very specific.

But please continue defending a regime that conducts terror all over the world and murders its own people just so you can attack trump.
It says a whole heck of a lot about you.

 

[OpportunityCost]

Yup...the ones affected by this OP. Or we can talk about when the Persians killed people back hundreds of yrs ago too. :roll: And I wasnt just referring to innocent Iranians, there were other people on that flight, including more than 60 Canadians.

Wait, you're blaming Trump for the Iranians downing that flight? That's stupid as hell.

 

[Lursa]

In other words, you only care about political things. You really do not care one way or another about dead people. As I said, only when they suit you political purpose or goals.

Me, I care about all people, and could not give a damn about politics.

You keep 'putting words in my mouth' based on your own biases. I wrote no such things.

Stop trying to bait me into what 'you want me to claim'...not gonna happen.

And I call BS on you 'caring about all people.' Complete BS. (see? I can do it too. In this case tho, I really believe what I wrote, based on your overall track record)

 

[Lursa]

Wait, you're blaming Trump for the Iranians downing that flight? That's stupid as hell.

Trump is stupid as hell? Well yes but my point was more specific to the incident. Maybe you should have read my previous post on it:

They wouldnt have been firing at anyone had we not attacked them...on what seems more and more like false pretenses.

So we initiated the actions that the Iraqis responded to (incompetently) and many innocent people died.

 

[Lursa]

What goal post did I move. Please be very specific.

But please continue defending a regime that conducts terror all over the world and murders its own people just so you can attack trump.
It says a whole heck of a lot about you.

Thanks for the marching orders. I dont need to respond to that. Maybe you can try again and figure it out for yourself. (Here's a hint: I responded to a topic on a specific incident...not your hyperbolic drama 'all over the world.')

 

[Lursa]

You think killing a person who has directly worked to kill hundreds of Americans is the same thing as using something that happened hundreds of years ago.
Please don’t hurt your back bending so far over backwards to defend the Iranians who hundreds of American families grieving the loss of their sons and daughters.

But no attacking trump is much more important.

*Whooosh!* The intentionally sarcastic analogy went right over your head.

 

[Evilroddy]

When you are talking about the Iranian Revolutionary Guard, you are talking about the Iranian Military. There is no difference between Military and Paramilitary in that instance. It is a branch of their Armed forces, just as the Marine Corps is a branch of the US Armed Forces.

And because the Revolutionary Guard is tasked with more political targets, it is not much different than the SS or Waffen-SS in Third Reich era Germany.

Would you so easily dismiss this if it was say the SS being sent into Holland? That because it was Waffen-SS and not the Wehrmacht?

This is what I am finding so funny, so many are trying really hard to make some kind of false connection. Iran has no "Regular Forces" is just semantics. If we sent large numbers of Green Berets and Navy SEALs in, they also would not be "Regular Forces". But nobody would be trying to deny we had military forces involved.

Armed Forces of the Islamic Republic of Iran - Wikipedia

Oozlefinch:

So you're going Godwin?!? I'm not playing the Nazi game.

The distinction between the Quds Force and the Regular Iranian forces is about the same as the differences between US Special Forces seconded to CIA operations or working with American Red Teams or working in US embassy staffs or covert military operations conducted by the military alone compared to overt US regular military force's operations. It's the same difference between Russian Special Forces waging deniable hybrid warfare or British Special Boat or Air Services operating covertly in Africa. Mr. Trump's error was not fig-leafing his strikes by using deniable US assets to attack Soleimani. Had he done so, then he could have claimed he was not using his clearly defined war powers. But he used regular US forces to overtly attack both Iran and Iraq and thus broke US law and violated the US constitution.

Semantics is the difference between grey-zone conflicts and full blown wars. Semantics is the difference between killing and murder. Semantics is the difference between black and white in a world in grey. Semantics keep us at peace or drive us to war.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

 

[roughdraft274]

Still waiting for you to tell us about that U.S. citizen that Congress declared war on.

It's not my problem that you didn't read what I said and are now asking for evidence of something I never claimed.

As I said, I understand why you are forced to do it. Can't argue the facts, so knock over the chessboard. Got it.

 

[Jredbaron96]

I don’t need to prove he is lying as he has never proved any evidence of this memo that he first claimed was a plan then later said it wasn’t.

Do you really want to argue that senior Bush administration officials did not want to invade Iran?

Where did I deny that. Can you quote me doing so.

You seem to ignore the idea that it happened in favor of a narrative that Iran has always hated us and always wanted to kill Americans.

 

[OpportunityCost]

Trump is stupid as hell? Well yes but my point was more specific to the incident. Maybe you should have read my previous post on it:

You blame the store clerk that sold the ammo after a shooting don't you?

The Iranians and no one else were responsible for downing that plane. Your pathetic attempt to blame Trump for that is weak beyond measure.