Wayne LaPierre spending spree

[Helix]

well I was in law enforcement for 30 years -I'd love to hear your theories on how to detect such nutters. Now if someone is on FB or other social media-talking about say shooting up a synagogue or Mosque or say a church with mainly Black or gay parishioners-yeah, that might be grounds for an inquiry. And if someone makes threats, yes. Trying to collect information on how many guns someone owns is a non-starter

it's fairly easy to detect nutters. it's done every day. most of them are also idiots.

 

[TurtleDude]

it's fairly easy to detect nutters. it's done every day. most of them are also idiots.

well let me in on it-because it seems tons of them escape detection by those in a position to do something.

 

[Helix]

well let me in on it-because it seems tons of them escape detection by those in a position to do something.

flagging the internet activity of violent morons seems to be a good strategy.

 

[TurtleDude]

flagging the internet activity of violent morons seems to be a good strategy.

That probably doesn't violate the constitution on its face either. I sort of noted that made sense.

On a side note-have you seen so many times-after a shooting-be it the asshole who killed all the people in the Orlando Night club or the racist who shot a bunch of kindly Black Christians (Dylan Roof IIRC)--people come forward and make statements such as "I knew that guy was nuts and I sort of expected this" or even more telling things such as "he used to brandish a firearm and brag how he was going to "waste some Jews" etc? And yet no one ever seems to think-HEY, maybe I ought to let someone know about this guy before he does kill a bunch of people?

Now, some of the mass murderers might not have given any indications. The guy who shot up Vegas was a multimillionaire with a gambling issue-but he passed a bunch of background checks and had worked for the IRS and maintained a pilot's license. But many of the other ones-well they had displayed all sorts of warning signs.

 

[Helix]

That probably doesn't violate the constitution on its face either. I sort of noted that made sense.

On a side note-have you seen so many times-after a shooting-be it the asshole who killed all the people in the Orlando Night club or the racist who shot a bunch of kindly Black Christians (Dylan Roof IIRC)--people come forward and make statements such as "I knew that guy was nuts and I sort of expected this" or even more telling things such as "he used to brandish a firearm and brag how he was going to "waste some Jews" etc? And yet no one ever seems to think-HEY, maybe I ought to let someone know about this guy before he does kill a bunch of people?

Now, some of the mass murderers might not have given any indications. The guy who shot up Vegas was a multimillionaire with a gambling issue-but he passed a bunch of background checks and had worked for the IRS and maintained a pilot's license. But many of the other ones-well they had displayed all sorts of warning signs.

i wouldn't be surprised to learn that there are a few key phrases that one could type into a search engine to get put on a mass shooter watchlist. while i don't find that to be libertarian ideal, it might be a good thing for responsible gun owners.

 

[TurtleDude]

i wouldn't be surprised to learn that there are a few key phrases that one could type into a search engine to get put on a mass shooter watchlist. while i don't find that to be libertarian ideal, it might be a good thing for responsible gun owners.

I don't believe responsible gun owners have a duty to be policing nut cases but if they notice such behavior to report it. Just like responsible drinkers calling in someone who is driving drunk

 

[Helix]

I don't believe responsible gun owners have a duty to be policing nut cases but if they notice such behavior to report it. Just like responsible drinkers calling in someone who is driving drunk

I think that building an arsenal should get the attention of someone who can check it out.

 

[TurtleDude]

I think that building an arsenal should get the attention of someone who can check it out.

How does the information of someone "building an arsenal" get disseminated? And what does that mean. many collectors buy 10-12 guns a year and if they are middle aged, that means collections of over 100 guns.

 

[jaeger19]

it's fairly easy to detect nutters. it's done every day. most of them are also idiots.

Please explain exactly how its easy. And please define "nutters"...

 

[Crystal]

Please explain exactly how its easy. And please define "nutters"...

It’s anyone who disagrees with him. They call names. It’s what they do.

 

[Helix]

Please explain exactly how its easy. And please define "nutters"...

when someone begins posting nutty **** online and starts building an arsenal, that is fairly detectable. i'd be surprised if authorities aren't flagging activity like that already.

 

[TurtleDude]

when someone begins posting nutty **** online and starts building an arsenal, that is fairly detectable. i'd be surprised if authorities aren't flagging activity like that already.

How does the government find out who is "building an arsenal"

 

[Helix]

How does the government find out who is "building an arsenal"

i'd suspect that buying a ****load of guns and ammo already trips a flag in many cases. gun shows are a loophole, though.

 

[TurtleDude]

i'd suspect that buying a ****load of guns and ammo already trips a flag in many cases. gun shows are a loophole, though.

You are incorrect twice. Now if you buy two or more handguns w/in five business days from the same dealer-the dealer has to send the ATF a report-they almost never investigate. I have bought ten thousand rounds of ammo more than a dozen times-there is no law nor reason for a report since serious target shooters do this constantly. I shoot Olympic Trap and the ammo we use is rarely used in other shotgun events. So when a big distributor has a sale or has free shipping, I will often buy a years supply of ammo -5000 shells at a time.

There is no gun show loophole-it is one of the dishonest talking points created by the anti gun movement. The laws at a gun show are exactly the same as any other place in a given state and federal laws are the same as well.

 

[Helix]

You are incorrect twice. Now if you buy two or more handguns w/in five business days from the same dealer-the dealer has to send the ATF a report-they almost never investigate. I have bought ten thousand rounds of ammo more than a dozen times-there is no law nor reason for a report since serious target shooters do this constantly. I shoot Olympic Trap and the ammo we use is rarely used in other shotgun events. So when a big distributor has a sale or has free shipping, I will often buy a years supply of ammo -5000 shells at a time.

There is no gun show loophole-it is one of the dishonest talking points created by the anti gun movement. The laws at a gun show are exactly the same as any other place in a given state and federal laws are the same as well.

Since you're an Olympic target shooter, I doubt that you would be inconvenienced much by the flag.

 

[TurtleDude]

Since you're an Olympic target shooter, I doubt that you would be inconvenienced much by the flag.

I oppose unconstitutional laws, even if they don't personally impact me. As a retired DOJ attorney, I suspect I would have certain other benefits of the doubt as well but the federal government has no proper power in demanding information as to who buys how much ammo. BTW, almost no murders are committed by people who buy ammo in bulk.

Do you understand that the term "gun show loophole" is a bogus term that has no validity from a legal standpoint? Now anti gun advocates claim that a gun show allows a prohibited buyer ACCESS to more private sellers than say he could obtain by reading the classified ads or hitting the Knights of Columbus or the Ohio Pistol and Rifle association swap meets and to some extent that might be true. But as someone who has attended hundreds of guns shows as

1) in an official capacity as a prosecutor

2) as a buyer of guns or related items

3) as a clerk or salesman for a dealer (when I was in private practice, I'd sometimes help one of my big clients when he was shorthanded. No, I was not billing my hourly rates, but I more than made up for it because you often can get really good second hand deals when you are representing a major league seller)

4) As staff for pro gun groups that set up tables at these shows to promote a candidate or garner opposition to anti gun laws.

As such, I saw hundreds of law enforcement officers at these shows. some were working undercover, some were off duty and there in a private capacity, and some were in uniform -indeed the ATF often had a table at some of the shows. IN other words, if you were a mope, looking to buy a gun from a private seller, you ran an extremely high risk of someone who knew you were a mope, spotting you.

 

[Helix]

I oppose unconstitutional laws, even if they don't personally impact me. As a retired DOJ attorney, I suspect I would have certain other benefits of the doubt as well but the federal government has no proper power in demanding information as to who buys how much ammo. BTW, almost no murders are committed by people who buy ammo in bulk.

Do you understand that the term "gun show loophole" is a bogus term that has no validity from a legal standpoint? Now anti gun advocates claim that a gun show allows a prohibited buyer ACCESS to more private sellers than say he could obtain by reading the classified ads or hitting the Knights of Columbus or the Ohio Pistol and Rifle association swap meets and to some extent that might be true. But as someone who has attended hundreds of guns shows as

1) in an official capacity as a prosecutor

2) as a buyer of guns or related items

3) as a clerk or salesman for a dealer (when I was in private practice, I'd sometimes help one of my big clients when he was shorthanded. No, I was not billing my hourly rates, but I more than made up for it because you often can get really good second hand deals when you are representing a major league seller)

4) As staff for pro gun groups that set up tables at these shows to promote a candidate or garner opposition to anti gun laws.

As such, I saw hundreds of law enforcement officers at these shows. some were working undercover, some were off duty and there in a private capacity, and some were in uniform -indeed the ATF often had a table at some of the shows. IN other words, if you were a mope, looking to buy a gun from a private seller, you ran an extremely high risk of someone who knew you were a mope, spotting you.

It doesn't affect my first amendment rights if I say violent things online and then get asked some questions. It doesn't affect your second amendment rights or your hobby if some nutter building an arsenal for a shooting spree gets asked some questions, either. ****, gun hobbyists should want as few nutters going on shooting sprees as possible, and what I'm proposing is as mild as it gets.

 

[ataraxia]

Its just like the preachers. Just keep giving them money. Suckers!!

Whatever is left over can go to buying Sarah Palin, Sean Hannity, and Ann Coulter books.

 

[TurtleDude]

It doesn't affect my first amendment rights if I say violent things online and then get asked some questions. It doesn't affect your second amendment rights or your hobby if some nutter building an arsenal for a shooting spree gets asked some questions, either. ****, gun hobbyists should want as few nutters going on shooting sprees as possible, and what I'm proposing is as mild as it gets.

what you seem to not understand is that if you make violent comments online-there is no additional powers a government agent needs to read those. If someone is buying lots of guns, unless the dealer is voluntarily calling up the government, there is a level of coercion required and that is not something the federal government should have the power to have. And guess what, what mass shootings would have been prevented by this? Las Vegas you say? the man bought dozens of guns over several years and passed background checks each time. He was a former IRS agent with an active pilot's license and zero-I repeat zero felonies, or any adjudications of mental illness. So what would an agent ask the guy? Why do you buy so many guns? "Because I can afford them and I like guns"

Yeah that's going to do a lot.

 

[jonny5]

This obsession with the NRA is one of those things partisans dont get. The more they attack and focus on something, the more it drives people to support it. While there may be something legitimate in the substance of the op, the fact that its only mentioned as a way to be insulting for political gain, only causes people to send the NRA more money, to defend them more. Then when the anti-nra crowd inevitably insults their supporters, it gains the NRA even more supporters. It would be interesting to see what would happen if anti-gun anti NRA crowd just shut up about them for a few years.

 

[Helix]

what you seem to not understand is that if you make violent comments online-there is no additional powers a government agent needs to read those. If someone is buying lots of guns, unless the dealer is voluntarily calling up the government, there is a level of coercion required and that is not something the federal government should have the power to have. And guess what, what mass shootings would have been prevented by this? Las Vegas you say? the man bought dozens of guns over several years and passed background checks each time. He was a former IRS agent with an active pilot's license and zero-I repeat zero felonies, or any adjudications of mental illness. So what would an agent ask the guy? Why do you buy so many guns? "Because I can afford them and I like guns"

Yeah that's going to do a lot.

flagging large guns / ammo purchases would at least put psychos on the radar for further scrutiny. they wouldn't even have to approach everyone who trips the flag. they would mostly just be aware of them and keep an eye on their activities. ATF? i don't know about you, but i'd say devoting resources to preventing violent assholes from shooting up public places seems a bit more important than making sure grandpappy isn't selling moonshine out of his garage on the sly. devote the resources to that. i think that you realize that every time one of these assholes shoots a place up, we get one step closer to federal legislation that actually will affect you. you can do the NRA thing of not giving an inch no matter how small the proposed change to the law is, but eventually, it's going to be counterproductive and the dam of public opinion will break. what i'm proposing is a good idea.

 

[Common Sense 1]

Leaked documents show more than $500,000 in alleged spending by NRA CEO

Wayne LaPierre expensed $39,000 in clothes in one day plus $18,300 for a car and driver.

National Rifle Asso. CEO Wayne LaPierre.



The NRA's Wayne LaPierre is living like a Russian oligarch .... and on your membership dime folks, even though the organization is drowning in legal fees......

Related: Leaked NRA Documents Reveal Gun Group Drowning In Legal Fees

Russia, Russia ,Russia What a strange fixation with Russia? Are you an NRA member? Nope your not so don't worry about the NRA!
If there are issues the they will correct the problem in house. The broad is elected my the membership!!
This is a get the NRA how ever they can.

 

[jaeger19]

flagging large guns / ammo purchases would at least put psychos on the radar for further scrutiny. they wouldn't even have to approach everyone who trips the flag. they would mostly just be aware of them and keep an eye on their activities. ATF? i don't know about you, but i'd say devoting resources to preventing violent assholes from shooting up public places seems a bit more important than making sure grandpappy isn't selling moonshine out of his garage on the sly. devote the resources to that. i think that you realize that every time one of these assholes shoots a place up, we get one step closer to federal legislation that actually will affect you. you can do the NRA thing of not giving an inch no matter how small the proposed change to the law is, but eventually, it's going to be counterproductive and the dam of public opinion will break. what i'm proposing is a good idea.

Naw… its a pretty stupid idea as Turtledude has shown.

First.. you are going to be wasting resources by placing Turtledude and myself.. and every other competitive shooter... on a watch list. And they are going to have to spend some time watching.. because politically.. if they have flagged us.. simply because of the amount of ammunition we buy.. they certainly aren't going to NOT watch us and then find out we committed a mass shooting.

Meanwhile..an actual mass shooter? They have little need of buying in bulk. Heck.. most mass shooters haven't even gone through a box of ammo much less the bulk that most shooters shoot in a year.

Plus.. to do such a track.... it means that you know would have to track EVER SINGLE AMMUNITION SALE in the US. Otherwise.. how would you know where and when a person buys ammunition. I mean.. pretty easy to buy two boxes, here. three boxes there.. another again a week from now.. etc.. and now I have 500 rounds of ammunition.

HUGE waste of resources and time.

You want to prevent A holes from committing crimes... well focus on the A holes... not on everyone else but them. Focus on them..and not the firearms or ammunition. Make it easier for folks to get them help. Most of these mass shooters had mental health issues.. and did not get the help they needed.

 

[Helix]

Naw… its a pretty stupid idea as Turtledude has shown.

First.. you are going to be wasting resources by placing Turtledude and myself.. and every other competitive shooter... on a watch list. And they are going to have to spend some time watching.. because politically.. if they have flagged us.. simply because of the amount of ammunition we buy.. they certainly aren't going to NOT watch us and then find out we committed a mass shooting.

Meanwhile..an actual mass shooter? They have little need of buying in bulk. Heck.. most mass shooters haven't even gone through a box of ammo much less the bulk that most shooters shoot in a year.

Plus.. to do such a track.... it means that you know would have to track EVER SINGLE AMMUNITION SALE in the US. Otherwise.. how would you know where and when a person buys ammunition. I mean.. pretty easy to buy two boxes, here. three boxes there.. another again a week from now.. etc.. and now I have 500 rounds of ammunition.

HUGE waste of resources and time.

You want to prevent A holes from committing crimes... well focus on the A holes... not on everyone else but them. Focus on them..and not the firearms or ammunition. Make it easier for folks to get them help. Most of these mass shooters had mental health issues.. and did not get the help they needed.

i've explained my position and the motivation for it clearly already. i've also already addressed your objections. the all or nothing position is probably going to result in exactly what you don't want, but i doubt that even an extended discussion will convince you of that.

 

[jaeger19]

i've explained my position and the motivation for it clearly already. i've also already addressed your objections. the all or nothing position is probably going to result in exactly what you don't want, but i doubt that even an extended discussion will convince you of that.

Yep..you explained your position and your motivations

And your position has been subsequently torn to shreds by Turtledude and myself.

You say track large purchases. Okay.. that means that Turtledude and myself are going to be tracked because we shoot competitively and therefore buy in bulk to save money.

Meanwhile.. do you have ANY evidence that mass shooters are buying IN SUCH BULK? Or that they are even en mass using it? Because guess what.. there is no evidence of that.

but wait.. what about a person that want to amass a ammo? Well.. if they buy a box here and a box there, in two months.. you could make several purchases and have over 1000 rounds... in a jiffy. So now you want to track EVERY ammo purchase? Because that's what you have to do... and guess what.. ain;t going to work.

nor is trying to monitor firearms purchases... I have over thirty firearms.. turtledude probably more.. accumulated over a number of years. How do you track that.. without firearm registration? And what does it matter anyway? Because you are now tracking the folks that are LEAST likely to cause a problem..

and whats your position on why I should accept a proposal.. that will do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to stop mass shooters and in fact will divert valuable resources away from something that will absolutely help (better mental health)?

oh right.. I should accept these proposals because if I don't.. its going to result in bans etc.. that I don't want.

Well.. its not like we have not heard that before. WE heard how we had to accept the 1967 gun laws (before my time.. but my dad talks about it)..and when those did not work.. then more restrictions were put in.

We were told that we had to accept the brady bill for background checks.. and the assault weapons bill... and guess what.. when they were found not to work.. its not like the anti gun crowd stopped calling for more gun control.

The truth is.... the ONLY thing that has stood in the way of having my firearms banned... is the general public being educated by the NRA about what these laws would actually do. Its been stopped by the NRA refusing to give way to gun laws.. THAT DO NOT MAKE SENSE.

You are right.. I don't believe you when you state that by accepting a gun law that will do nothing to stop mass shooters and will take up valuable resources that could stop mass shooters.... will somehow mollify the anti gun crowd and their calls for gun control.

Sorry sir..but history has proved ME right.. and you wrong.