• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

Royal PITA said:
Disagreed. :)

BTW, anything inside the Natural Universe can be explained. Anything outside of it, not so much.

Sent from Clavius Base using Laser communications
Click to expand...

Where is outside the universe?
 
ArtemisBarca said:
We could say something that “complex” has to have a designer, that’s fine.. but first you gotta define complex as something that is complex enough to need a designer..

The problem is that “complex” is a relativistic term that is meaningless without something to compare it to.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Complexity does not mean a designer any more than simplicity means no designer.
 
devildavid said:
It isn't faith at all. We don't rely on people telling us they are from someplace to know whether or not the place exists. We know it.
Click to expand...
If you have not experienced place then how do you actually know it exists? Not just using the word, when it is only a belief, an accepting the person or people telling you it does. Actually knowing.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk
 
maquiscat said:
If you have not experienced place then how do you actually know it exists? Not just using the word, when it is only a belief, an accepting the person or people telling you it does. Actually knowing.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

It isn't by an act of faith. This kind of thinking is really where the absurdity of "philosophical" thinking gets silly. But how do we really know? Really really know? It isn't that complicated or that deep. If they are reporting on someplace and it is on a map and you can buy tickets to travel there I don't think it requires deep philosophical contemplation to "know" it is a real place.
 
devildavid said:
Complexity does not mean a designer any more than simplicity means no designer.
Click to expand...

It could, but first you have to assign a specific definition to complex..

If you define complex in a way that requires a designer, then it would be true...

If you define complex in a way where a designer is not required. Then it is not true..

That is why all creationists arguments are based around vague verbiage with many possible definitions...

You refute definition (A) and they claim they meant definition (B). Refute definition (B) and they claim, “well in. That case I was using definition (A). “

Every conservative talking point is based on that dynamic...

When you say globalist , you mean the dictionary definition of globalist “to think globally”. When they hear “globalist” they think “leftist Illuminati “.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
ArtemisBarca said:
It could, but first you have to assign a specific definition to complex..

If you define complex in a way that requires a designer, then it would be true...

If you define complex in a way where a designer is not required. Then it is not true..

That is why all creationists arguments are based around vague verbiage with many possible definitions...

You refute definition (A) and they claim they meant definition (B). Refute definition (B) and they claim, “well in. That case I was using definition (A). “

Every conservative talking point is based on that dynamic...

When you say globalist , you mean the dictionary definition of globalist “to think globally”. When they hear “globalist” they think “leftist Illuminati “.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

So its all a word game.
 
devildavid said:
So its all a word game.
Click to expand...

All the creationist arguments pretending you can prove anything scientifically with a philosophical argument, absolutely are...

Philosophy is basically the study of human emotions and behavior , right??

While science is the study of reality...

Feelings are not real.. they are how we perceive reality..

If you feel like your spouse is cheating on you, that does not mean they are.. feelings are not reality..



Basically it’s trying to solve a math problem with love or despair rather than the order of operation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
ArtemisBarca said:
All the creationist arguments pretending you can prove anything scientifically with a philosophical argument, absolutely are...

Philosophy is basically the study of human emotions and behavior , right??

While science is the study of reality...
Click to expand...

The study of the reality we can STUDY.

We can't study it all. We aren't even aware of all, or MUCH what we're not aware of !

ArtemisBarca said:
Feelings are not real.. they are how we perceive reality..

If you feel like your spouse is cheating on you, that does not mean they are.. feelings are not reality..

Basically it’s trying to solve a math problem with love or despair rather than the order of operation.
Click to expand...

Pointing out the limits we are under in our study of reality.
 
maquiscat said:
Not observed does not equate to doesn't happen. How long did we not observe gamma radiation happening, while it still factually occured?

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

We aren’t talking about something that is enigmatic or hard to detect. Matter/energy is the universe.
 
Royal PITA said:
Unknown. Are you saying you believe there is nothing over the horizon? Does your map of the Universe have a section that says "Here there be dragons"?
Click to expand...

How do you determine that there is an outside of the universe? I thought that universe was a word that referred to everything.
 
captaintrips said:
The study of the reality we can STUDY.

We can't study it all. We aren't even aware of all, or MUCH what we're not aware of !



Pointing out the limits we are under in our study of reality.
Click to expand...

Fair enough if you are only talking about the overall concept of a creator god..

But that is not what almost anyone pushing this stuff is claiming..

They are claiming it is the Christian god, specifically and that we ABSOLUTELY can debunk... easily.

The Bible makes MANY testable claims for us to check the accuracy of its assertions. MANY CLAIMS that even ten thousand years later would have absolutely left a scar...

Creation:
7 day creation is a joke INCLUDING the sequence...

I think it had the fish and seas being created BEFORE the sun and stars lol..


The flood:

There was no global flood in human history..

There is not even enough water on the planet to cover the entire land mass , even if melting the ice caps.

Obviously too many animals for a boat the size specified, exc..

Obviously humanity was not spawned by incest from Noah’s family 10,000 years ago.. everyone’s DNA would show it.


Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed by military conquest.. they found the ruins..



The New Testament:

There was no Roman census requiring everyone to travel to their ancestral home of a thousand years before, to be counted..
You couldn’t pull that off today with cars and planes...lol

Mark and John(I think John) cannot even a free if Jesus was crucified the day before or after pass over or if Jesus knew he would be resurrected before his execution...



There are thousands of testable examples and it fails miserably every time.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
captaintrips said:
The study of the reality we can STUDY.

We can't study it all. We aren't even aware of all, or MUCH what we're not aware of !



Pointing out the limits we are under in our study of reality.
Click to expand...

PS we are not constrained by our emotions in our study of reality..

We invented science SPECIFICALLY to check and make sure we are not fooling ourselves, because scientists know their emotions cannot be trusted..


Math , tools for taking measurements and any experiment worth it’s salt doesn’t care how you feel about it..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
ArtemisBarca said:
Fair enough if you are only talking about the overall concept of a creator god..

But that is not what almost anyone pushing this stuff is claiming..

They are claiming it is the Christian god, specifically and that we ABSOLUTELY can debunk... easily.

The Bible makes MANY testable claims for us to check the accuracy of its assertions. MANY CLAIMS that even ten thousand years later would have absolutely left a scar...

Creation:
7 day creation is a joke INCLUDING the sequence...

I think it had the fish and seas being created BEFORE the sun and stars lol..

The flood:

There was no global flood in human history..

There is not even enough water on the planet to cover the entire land mass , even if melting the ice caps.

Obviously too many animals for a boat the size specified, exc..

Obviously humanity was not spawned by incest from Noah’s family 10,000 years ago.. everyone’s DNA would show it.

Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed by military conquest.. they found the ruins..

The New Testament:

There was no Roman census requiring everyone to travel to their ancestral home of a thousand years before, to be counted..
You couldn’t pull that off today with cars and planes...lol

Mark and John(I think John) cannot even a free if Jesus was crucified the day before or after pass over or if Jesus knew he would be resurrected before his execution...

There are thousands of testable examples and it fails miserably every time.
Click to expand...

Yes, what I said wasn't part of an argument of apologetics in defense of Christianity.

Just to illustrate how really finite and ignorant we still are, even with the vast- what WE think of as vast - amount of knowledge we currently have. Oddly enough, the more we find we "know," the more we know we DON'T know, the more questions we have.

Black holes are a very interesting and strange item to study, lot of cool reading can be found online about them
 
devildavid said:
How do you determine that there is an outside of the universe? I thought that universe was a word that referred to everything.
Click to expand...

Haven't you ever heard about the multiverse theory? Here, let me help educate you:

Confronting the Multiverse: What 'Infinite Universes' Would Mean | Space
....As physicist and Nobel laureate Steven Weinberg told me on "Closer to Truth" (the source of all following interviews), "The word 'universe,' I suppose, should properly mean the whole thing — everything. But when we think of 'universe,' we sometimes use the word to mean just our Big Bang, the things we can see out to almost 14 billion light-years in all directions. And in this manner, it's reasonable to question: Is our universe unique? Are there multiple Big Bangs? Could there be multiple Big Bangs in different senses?"

"We started calling it a 'multiverse,'" meaning the entire ensemble of innumerable regions of disconnected space-time, said Andrei Linde, the Russian-American physicist now at Stanford. He developed the theory of "eternal chaotic inflation," which generates ever-increasing numbers of universes without end. Scientists created the neologism "multiverse," Linde continued, "because we found that what we had called 'the universe' can be divided into extremely large regions, which may have different laws of physics. And one part may be suitable for life, and other parts unsuitable."


5 Reasons We May Live in a Multiverse | Space
The universe we live in may not be the only one out there. In fact, our universe could be just one of an infinite number of universes making up a "multiverse."

Though the concept may stretch credulity, there's good physics behind it. And there's not just one way to get to a multiverse — numerous physics theories independently point to such a conclusion. In fact, some experts think the existence of hidden universes is more likely than not....
 
ArtemisBarca said:
PS we are not constrained by our emotions in our study of reality..

We invented science SPECIFICALLY to check and make sure we are not fooling ourselves, because scientists know their emotions cannot be trusted..

Math , tools for taking measurements and any experiment worth it’s salt doesn’t care how you feel about it..
Click to expand...

Yes, they do know that.

Or SHOULD.

Even so, they're human too and emotion can and DOES permeate and infect or manipulate science at times.
 
Royal PITA said:
Haven't you ever heard about the multiverse theory? Here, let me help educate you:

Confronting the Multiverse: What 'Infinite Universes' Would Mean | Space
....As physicist and Nobel laureate Steven Weinberg told me on "Closer to Truth" (the source of all following interviews), "The word 'universe,' I suppose, should properly mean the whole thing — everything. But when we think of 'universe,' we sometimes use the word to mean just our Big Bang, the things we can see out to almost 14 billion light-years in all directions. And in this manner, it's reasonable to question: Is our universe unique? Are there multiple Big Bangs? Could there be multiple Big Bangs in different senses?"

"We started calling it a 'multiverse,'" meaning the entire ensemble of innumerable regions of disconnected space-time, said Andrei Linde, the Russian-American physicist now at Stanford. He developed the theory of "eternal chaotic inflation," which generates ever-increasing numbers of universes without end. Scientists created the neologism "multiverse," Linde continued, "because we found that what we had called 'the universe' can be divided into extremely large regions, which may have different laws of physics. And one part may be suitable for life, and other parts unsuitable."


5 Reasons We May Live in a Multiverse | Space
The universe we live in may not be the only one out there. In fact, our universe could be just one of an infinite number of universes making up a "multiverse."

Though the concept may stretch credulity, there's good physics behind it. And there's not just one way to get to a multiverse — numerous physics theories independently point to such a conclusion. In fact, some experts think the existence of hidden universes is more likely than not....
Click to expand...

But a multiverse is not the same as saying outside of the universe.
 
Royal PITA said:
Then what would you call a universe that is "outside" of ours?
Click to expand...

It is believed that there is a universe beyond the limits of the 'observable universe' (that is, that which produced light we can observe). I think the distinction between the observable universe and its entirety needs to made here.
 
NWO_Spook said:
It is believed that there is a universe beyond the limits of the 'observable universe' (that is, that which produced light we can observe). I think the distinction between the observable universe and its entirety needs to made here.
Click to expand...

The links point out that the multiverses are disconnected from Space-Time. In short "Y'all can't get to there from here!" At least not through our own Universe.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom