Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

[RabidAlpaca]

Who said no design was involved in the origin of the universe and life on earth? Do those people believe dumb ignorant luck somehow miraculous sparked a big bang of trillions of heavenly masses into perfect orbits from nothing and nowhere?

If you demand all complex things must have a creator, then who created god? Obviously god is more complex than the universe, so you don't seriously believe he just popped into existence out of nothing do you?

 

[marke]

If you demand all complex things must have a creator, then who created god? Obviously god is more complex than the universe, so you don't seriously believe he just popped into existence out of nothing do you?

Don't get distracted by contemplating God from a position of ignorance until you first come up with a reasonable solution for the miraculous origin of the universe.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

Don't get distracted by contemplating God from a position of ignorance until you first come up with a reasonable solution for the miraculous origin of the universe.

So you're abandoning the watchmaker fallacy when it comes to god because it's logically inconsistent. Gotcha.

 

[marke]

So you're abandoning the watchmaker fallacy when it comes to god because it's logically inconsistent. Gotcha.

I don't need to abandon anything. I am happy knowing God created the universe just like He said. It remains the problem of atheists to come up with a reasonable alternative explanation for the sudden emergence from nothing and nowhere the trillions of massive orbs in the universe.

 

[calamity]

I don't need to abandon anything. I am happy knowing God created the universe just like He said. It remains the problem of atheists to come up with a reasonable alternative explanation for the sudden emergence from nothing and nowhere the trillions of massive orbs in the universe.

Believe it or not, they have. And their explanation makes a hell of a lot more sense than "magic from the sky daddy did it."

 

[calamity]

I cannot tell you exactly. He had degrees from Ohio State (with honors) in both mechanical and electrical engineering. His youngest son graduated with honors from Ohio State with a degree in Aeronautical Engineering, is a retired fighter pilot and works in the aeronautical engineering field for a defense contractor. He is also a devoted Bible believing young earth creationist.

I have studied under Dr. Walt Brown, another devoted Bible believing creationist. He graduated from West Point, got a Ph.D. in Mechanical Engineering from MIT and taught at the Air Force Academy. He has also written excellent papers and books on geology and other science fields.

You know what they call this? An appeal to authority fallacy. Do you know that it lacks?

Evidence.

There is zero evidence of this sky daddy. None, nadda, zilch, zippo. May as well say the Tooth Fairy did it.

 

[marke]

Believe it or not, they have. And their explanation makes a hell of a lot more sense than "magic from the sky daddy did it."

Who are "they" and how do they explain the origin of matter? Remember, before matter originated there was no matter to help with the formation of original matter. The closest explanation I have heard to being scientifically acceptable is "it just happened."

 

[marke]

You know what they call this? An appeal to authority fallacy. Do you know that it lacks?

Evidence.

There is zero evidence of this sky daddy. None, nadda, zilch, zippo. May as well say the Tooth Fairy did it.

If there is no God you should not need to keep focusing on God while struggling to come up with an acceptable theory to explain the origin of matter.

 

[calamity]

If there is no God you should not need to keep focusing on God while struggling to come up with an acceptable theory to explain the origin of matter.

I don't focus on God. I focus on picking apart the stupid arguments people make saying that goddidit. And, when you think about it, nothing is as stupid as claiming everything came about because some magic man in the sky made it.

 

[JustHanging]

If there is no God you should not need to keep focusing on God while struggling to come up with an acceptable theory to explain the origin of matter.

The problem is marke, that people who are gullible enough to believe a storybook character like Harry Potter or God-Jesus created the Universe are also gullible enough to believe Russia didn't interfere in the 2016 American election.

That's really bad for America, surely you can see that?

 

[RabidAlpaca]

I don't need to abandon anything. I am happy knowing God created the universe just like He said. It remains the problem of atheists to come up with a reasonable alternative explanation for the sudden emergence from nothing and nowhere the trillions of massive orbs in the universe.

The universe doesn't owe you an explanation. Your two initial assumptions are there must be an explanation and that must be god, neither of which you can support. Further you use the watchmaker fallacy only when it suits you then abandon it when it comes to god.

 

[RAMOSS]

It makes sense, think of it like this:

• All design implies a designer.
• Great design implies a great designer.
• There is great design in the world (like that of a great machine;
human eye, male/female relation, DNA, etc.).
• Therefore, there must be a great Designer of the world, viz.,God

or how that necessary beings or things HAVE to exist but have to be created at the same time which would require a necessary being

https://www3.dbu.edu/naugle/pdf/2301_handouts/existence_of_god.pdf

Philosophy PROVES God,

There are a number of false claims that are part of the premise there.

The first one is 'all design implies a designer'. That is false. . Starting there, all else after that fails.

 

[JustHanging]

There are a number of false claims that are part of the premise there.

The first one is 'all design implies a designer'. That is false. . Starting there, all else after that fails.

Yep, I pointed that out as well, smuggling the conclusion into the premises is a logical no no.

 

[RAMOSS]

Yep, I pointed that out as well, smuggling the conclusion into the premises is a logical no no.

And the leap of logic that the 'designer' has to be god.

 

[JustHanging]

......

 

[JustHanging]

So, it is in fields unrelated to the study of evolution and geology. I thought as much.

It's amazing how often the Dr. being quoted by creationists is a dentist.

 

[JustHanging]

You know what they call this? An appeal to authority fallacy. Do you know that it lacks?

Evidence.

There is zero evidence of this sky daddy. None, nadda, zilch, zippo. May as well say the Tooth Fairy did it.

If we're going to believe storybook characters like God-Jesus actually exist, I prefer to put my trust in the existence of Harry Potter. He hasn't committed genocide on multiple occasions like the maniac in the bible.

 

[JustHanging]

I don't need to abandon anything. I am happy knowing God created the universe just like He said. It remains the problem of atheists to come up with a reasonable alternative explanation for the sudden emergence from nothing and nowhere the trillions of massive orbs in the universe.

So because mankind doesn't currently know what started the Big Bang, you think giving storybook characters like Harry Potter and/or God-Jesus credit for creating everything makes sense.

Why?

 

[TypicalRussian]

There are a number of false claims that are part of the premise there.

The first one is 'all design implies a designer'. That is false. . Starting there, all else after that fails.

Really, think of anything, it had to have a designer

 

[calamity]

Really, think of anything, it had to have a designer

Does each and every snowflake have a designer?

I suggest picking up a book on natural selection. You'd be amazed at what you'll learn.

 

[Divine_Wind]

Watchmaker analogy - Wikipedia

Or: Teleological argument - Wikipedia

So let's boil it down to the simplest form for the discussion. At least to start.

The concept is rather clear:



That which is complex, requires a design, which obviously implies something designed it.

A watch doesn't exist without a designer.
Therefore the Universe couldn't exist without a designer.

First question right from the gate, if you presume the concept has merit, that a design implies a designer, why then jump to the conclusion (in the case of the universe/life as we know it) that the designer must be one specific "god"? Or any "god"/"gods" at all?

Does the watchmaker analogy (in terms of God/universe/life) hold water, or fall apart rather quickly?

"God", "Watchmaker", "Almighty", "The Force", "Hogwarts", etc are all just place-holder names for the unknown force of Creation.

Cosmologists call the unknown force behind the acceleration of Universe expansion "dark energy". They now the Universe is expanding but do not understand the force that is cause it. Cosmologists also have calculated the mass of the Universe and have determined that 85% of it is unseen meaning it's not the galaxies, stars, planets and such that they can see. The common name for this matter is "Dark Matter". Both "Dark Energy" and "Dark Matter" placeholder names for an unknown force.

I don't know the force behind creation. All I know is that it happened. If someone wants to call that unknown force "God", "Yahweh" or simply disbelieves it exists, that's fine with me since I have no evidence to refute them. All I know is that the Universe exists, that it has a definite beginning and a foreseeable end.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Really, think of anything, it had to have a designer

OK, who designed an earthquake, a hurricane, a tornado or a thunder/hail storm? Somehow, the resulting damage is attributed to an "act of God".

 

[Dragonfly]

Don't get distracted by contemplating God from a position of ignorance until you first come up with a reasonable solution for the miraculous origin of the universe.

How do you know the creation of our universe is, or was miraculous?
Have you compared our universe to others?
Do you know of a non-miraculous universe that you can show as the standard?
Maybe ours is just a random, everyday simple universe, and the truly miraculous ones are completely unknown to us at this time.

In fact, how do you know our universe isn't complete trash and something that's just been discarded like and old empty beer can in the back of a pickup truck?
Maybe the black holes are sort of like Universe Roomba or iRobot vacuum cleaners? Just constantly cleaning up the mess? A few trillion years from now the mess will be all gone.

 

[Divine_Wind]

Does each and every snowflake have a designer?

https://www.thephotoargus.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/snowflake12.jpg

I suggest picking up a book on natural selection. You'd be amazed at what you'll learn.

You think snowflakes "evolve"?

As for snowflakes, and everything else, all conform to the laws of physics. In keeping with the OP, if a watchmaker makes a watch then walks away, asking if the watchmaker makes every second tick off is to misunderstand the nature of the watch. (the answer is "no, he doesn't", of course)

OK, who designed an earthquake, a hurricane, a tornado or a thunder/hail storm? Somehow, the resulting damage is attributed to an "act of God".

Same reply. The Laws of physics. So where did those laws originate? With the Big Bang. What caused the Big Bang? IDK.

 

[Dragonfly]

"God", "Watchmaker", "Almighty", "The Force", "Hogwarts", etc are all just place-holder names for the unknown force of Creation.

Cosmologists call the unknown force behind the acceleration of Universe expansion "dark energy". They now the Universe is expanding but do not understand the force that is cause it. Cosmologists also have calculated the mass of the Universe and have determined that 85% of it is unseen meaning it's not the galaxies, stars, planets and such that they can see. The common name for this matter is "Dark Matter". Both "Dark Energy" and "Dark Matter" placeholder names for an unknown force.

I don't know the force behind creation. All I know is that it happened. If someone wants to call that unknown force "God", "Yahweh" or simply disbelieves it exists, that's fine with me since I have no evidence to refute them. All I know is that the Universe exists, that it has a definite beginning and a foreseeable end.

All good, except so many folks wish to go quite a few steps farther and assign all kinds of other attributes to that force.
A personality. Anger. Vengeance. Love for some. Hate for others. Eternal Reward. Eternal Punishment.....and then they want to convince/force others to accept those attributes as facts and follow specific rules and laws and morals...

You see where that starts to go right?