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Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

Angel said:
An elegant argument and spot-on.

It does not jump to God as conclusion; it gracefully sweeps a gesture in God's direction.
The conclusion is a no-brainer.
Only God could design such a thing as a universe?

The analogy goes to the existence of God.
Religion goes to the nature of God and the Design.
The former is a matter of reason.
The latter is a matter of faith.
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Looking at the universe and assuming everything in it must have been specifically created/designed for it is as illogical as looking as a pothole in the road full to the brim with water and assuming the pothole must have been designed with that exact shape and dimensions to perfectly hold that quantity of water, rather than correctly analyzing that the water instead conformed to the conditions of the pothole.
 
Dragonfly said:
Nobody designs snowflakes.

What's your suggestion?
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Snowflakes are incredibly complex "designs". Clearly every single one of them must have a designer using the Watchmaker argument.
 
Questerr said:
Snowflakes are incredibly complex "designs". Clearly every single one of them must have a designer using the Watchmaker argument.
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I think you might be confused as to my personal position regarding the Watchmaker Argument.
 
Overitall said:
It’s one of the best arguments I’ve come upon. It takes, imo, a true leap of faith to believe something as highly sophisticated as the human body came about by chance. The miracle of birth demonstrates over and over again that happenstance is a belief without a solid foundation.
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Describing evolution as "chance" demonstrates profound ignorance of what evolution actually is.
 
Dragonfly said:
I think you might be confused as to my personal position regarding the Watchmaker Argument.
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You: "That which is complex, requires a design, which obviously implies something designed it."

Every single individual snowflake is incredibly complex, which you say requires a design. So who designs every individual snowflake?
 
Questerr said:
You: "That which is complex, requires a design, which obviously implies something designed it."

Every single individual snowflake is incredibly complex, which you say requires a design. So who designs every individual snowflake?
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I was bullet pointing the concept of the watchmaker argument.
Describing the topic of the thread for those who didn't care to click the links.

Keep reading. I think you'll see where I stand with all this.
 
Questerr said:
Looking at the universe and assuming everything in it must have been specifically created/designed for it is as illogical as looking as a pothole in the road full to the brim with water and assuming the pothole must have been designed with that exact shape and dimensions to perfectly hold that quantity of water, rather than correctly analyzing that the water instead conformed to the conditions of the pothole.
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Both the pothole and its water need the ordered universe in order to account for them. What can account for the ordered universe?
 
Angel said:
Both the pothole and its water need the ordered universe in order to account for them. What can account for the ordered universe?
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A disordered universe wouldn't exist in any recognizable form. Your question is like asking "How can the pothole hold water if instead it was flat?"
 
Questerr said:
Describing evolution as "chance" demonstrates profound ignorance of what evolution actually is.
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I suppose it depends on when you want to suggest the process of evolution began. If its beginnings date back to the Big Bang then sure seems chance is involved.

It’s probably turtles all the way down.
 
Overitall said:
I suppose it depends on when you want to suggest the process of evolution began. If its beginnings date back to the Big Bang then sure seems chance is involved.

It’s probably turtles all the way down.
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Evolution has nothing to do with the Big Bang. So it would be idiotic to define evolution as beginning that far back.
 
Overitall said:
I thought I’d try to keep it simple. I see you prefer a more academic approach. Let’s see if this one works.

Science and the Concept of Evolution: From the Big Bang to the Origin and Evolution of Life | SpringerLink
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You just google "Evolution and the Big Bang" without actually reading the article you linked to, didn't you? Read the first paragraph. The article very clearly states it is NOT talking about biological evolution or the Theory of Evolution. It's using the word "evolution" in another context, meaning any evolutionary process. That's a very colloquial usage.
 
Questerr said:
You just google "Evolution and the Big Bang" without actually reading the article you linked to, didn't you? Read the first paragraph. The article very clearly states it is NOT talking about biological evolution or the Theory of Evolution. It's using the word "evolution" in another context, meaning any evolutionary process. That's a very colloquial usage.
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If life depends on the chemistry of carbon, where did carbon come from?
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Life did not just pop out of nothing. I think you’re not giving the article a chance. As I previously stated it depends on when you think evolution started.
 
Overitall said:
Life did not just pop out of nothing. I think you’re not giving the article a chance. As I previously stated it depends on when you think evolution started.
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The process of how carbon and other elements are created within stars has nothing to do with biological evolution after life has already come into existence.
 
Overitall said:
Life did not just pop out of nothing.
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Why does it appear that you feel there's only two reasonable options here?

1) God (and I'm guessing you think you know exactly which god it was/is?)

2) everything popped out of nothing
 
Questerr said:
The process of how carbon and other elements are created within stars has nothing to do with biological evolution after life has already come into existence.
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Are you a creationist?

By process what do you mean?
 
Dragonfly said:
Why does it appear that you feel there's only two reasonable options here?

1) God (and I'm guessing you think you know exactly which god it was/is?)

2) everything popped out of nothing
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I don’t know. I believe that the Judean/Christian God fits the bill.

Nature, itself, informs me that everything has a beginning.
 
Overitall said:
I don’t know. I believe that the Judean/Christian God fits the bill.

Nature, itself, informs me that everything has a beginning.
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The biblical god does NOT fit anything.

Nature might account for things on Earth, as perceived by humans.

Space, the Universe, the Big Bang, and billions and billions of years are most likely not confined by what we see as nature here on Earth.
 
Overitall said:
Are you a creationist?

By process what do you mean?
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Sorry, "formed from energy and lower elements" would be the more accurate scientific way to put it. I don't understand how "process" is not a clear term.
 
Overitall said:
I don’t know. I believe that the Judean/Christian God fits the bill.

Nature, itself, informs me that everything has a beginning.
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How do you get that idea from nature when nature shows everything as constant, never-ending cycles where everything is a cause and everything is also an effect with no clear beginnings or endings?
 
Dragonfly said:
The biblical god does NOT fit anything.
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That’s a belief statement.

Nature might account for things on Earth, as perceived by humans.

Space, the Universe, the Big Bang, and billions and billions of years are most likely not confined by what we see as nature here on Earth.
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This also is a belief statement. Actually it sounds more like a hope.
 
Overitall said:
That’s a belief statement.


This also is a belief statement. Actually it sounds more like a hope.
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No. God, is belief.

Not god, is using known facts and making assumptions based on science. And in some cases accepting "I don't know".

Prove god has done anything.

Science can prove all kinds of things.
 
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