Watchmaker Argument - Discussion

[ArtemisBarca]

What's the problem with believing "when you're dead, you're dead"?
The answer I was given by a Buddhist monk when asked if he believed there was a God or an afterlife, IMO was the most reasonable and rational answer possible; "All that matters is HOW you lie your life."

We have no way of ever knowing what was happening during an infinite period of time prior to what we call the big bang event, but that in no way means we aren't curious about it.

Ergo, if a theist wanted to rob banks or rape children, there is nothing stopping him/her except the fear of being caught and imprisoned. And they to will do it if they feel they can get away with it, but will likely repent when caught to receive forgiveness or go to confession, if Catholic.

It all kinda boils down a very egotistical “whatever I want to believe is the norm and you have to prove me wrong”. Rather than a scientific “hey lets factor in some experimentation to make sure we are not fooling ourselves..


The part that is the most telling to me is that you see zero corporate or government interests give one flying flip about the supernatural, and the profit potential if you can actually prove ANYTHING supernatural is just unlimited...


But do we see real estate moguls buying up all the haunted houses and putting psychics under contract?!?!?


Hell no..


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[Individual]

The problem is they are denying it's their faith while claiming it as fact. What makes them any different from a Bible Thumper? Neither can prove their position even though both claim it as fact.

Freudian slip from the monk or from you?

Agreed about infinite time, but it's even more far reaching than you are saying since Space-Time began with the Big Bang. If, and probably when, the Universe ends in the "Big Chill", then we'd have infinite time. However, outside the Universe of "before" (a temporal word) the Universe came into existence, there was no "time". What was, if anything, was eternity. A completely different meaning than "infinite". The problem, of course, is that there are no common English words for "no time" or "non-time". Everything we know and relate to involves Space-Time.

Now you are getting it. People justify their actions however they like. There is no such thing as a universal morality code. Human beings are capable mass murdering each other cold-bloodily. There is no superiority of atheist or theist since it's the people who are doing it that justify their own ends. This is why, IMO, it's f***ing stupid for atheists and theists to run around pointing fingers at each other. If a theist points out how they are superior to atheists, I'll point out the barbarous actions of theists. If an atheist does it, I'll do the same. Neither can prove they are superior since each of their beliefs are a matter of faith. The finger-pointing is silly and non-productive.

Having (v added) different opinions/beliefs should pose no problem, when such held opinions/beliefs are not imposed upon others, or applied in ways directly harmful to others. I would only apply the word faith to beliefs/opinions one WANTS to be true. I think everyone accepts as fact that life as we know it will ultimately end with death. Only after that point in time will the true fact become known/unknowable by each individual.

Yes, several keys, 4, v, and space bar, are unreliable on my keyboard and sometimes have to be struck several times on this computer. I'm in the process of repairing the computer I usually work from. The Monks words were "All that matters is HOW you LIVE your life."

Basically, all I am saying is believe what you want as long as you don't impose your beliefs upon others, or hold others responsible for your own problems as a result of your beliefs.

 

[Individual]

It all kinda boils down a very egotistical “whatever I want to believe is the norm and you have to prove me wrong”. Rather than a scientific “hey lets factor in some experimentation to make sure we are not fooling ourselves..


The part that is the most telling to me is that you see zero corporate or government interests give one flying flip about the supernatural, and the profit potential if you can actually prove ANYTHING supernatural is just unlimited...


But do we see real estate moguls buying up all the haunted houses and putting psychics under contract?!?!?


Hell no..


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The words by the Buddhist Monk were "All that matters is HOW you LIVE your life." The "v" key doesn't always work on my keyboard.

We live out our lives in the natural world. Make the best of it.

 

[Divine_Wind]

Having (v added) different opinions/beliefs should pose no problem, when such held opinions/beliefs are not imposed upon others, or applied in ways directly harmful to others. I would only apply the word faith to beliefs/opinions one WANTS to be true. I think everyone accepts as fact that life as we know it will ultimately end with death. Only after that point in time will the true fact become known/unknowable by each individual.

Yes, several keys, 4, v, and space bar, are unreliable on my keyboard and sometimes have to be struck several times on this computer. I'm in the process of repairing the computer I usually work from. The Monks words were "All that matters is HOW you LIVE your life."

Basically, all I am saying is believe what you want as long as you don't impose your beliefs upon others, or hold others responsible for your own problems as a result of your beliefs.

Agreed all of our mortal lives end in death. If there is a transcendence of the soul after death, it remains unknown.

Understood about typos and keyboards. Just asking.

Agreed. People have a right to their own beliefs but they don't have a right to impose those rights on their neighbors or through legal means. An example would be the atheists who want to criminalize teaching children family religious beliefs as child abuse and seek to have the children take away and the parents imprisoned for child abuse. Those advocating this are, indeed, seeking to impose their beliefs on others.

 

[Divine_Wind]

A) You do not have to prove the norm..the norm would be death being the end, just like with animals and such.

You are claiming there is some alternative dimension where the souls of humans go, when there is ZERO evidence for a soul or other dimensions...

The burden of proof ABSOLUTELY falls on you.. you are making the extraordinary claim..

I Can’t speak for you specifically on the animal tip, , but science does not recognize a soul or the human race being anything more than intelligent animals, and the human condition backs that up.. I cannot think of any thing besides our intelligence you cannot find in the animal kingdom..

B) ONLY Christians seem to think their religion is required for them to not rape and murder with abandon...

Atheist/agnostics do not need a fairytale I keep them from molesting children and such.. it is kinda sad christians think they do..

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I do believe there is more to existence than what we sense with our mortal shells. There is no proof of it just like there's no proof of multiverses, how the Singularity came to be or other dimensions.

There's a reason why most atheists, especially militant ones, are young. Teenagers and people who never matured past their early 20s. I'm not seeking to convert you or anyone else so, therefore, there is no burden. I mostly have a lot of questions and very little evidence. OTOH, since the militant atheists are asserting a specific belief style, the burden is on them to prove it to others or shut up and live and let live.

Sent from a mountain of Reason to those wallowing in the atheist muck of self-righteousness.

 

[Individual]

Agreed all of our mortal lives end in death. If there is a transcendence of the soul after death, it remains unknown.

Understood about typos and keyboards. Just asking.

Agreed. People have a right to their own beliefs but they don't have a right to impose those rights on their neighbors or through legal means. An example would be the atheists who want to criminalize teaching children family religious beliefs as child abuse and seek to have the children take away and the parents imprisoned for child abuse. Those advocating this are, indeed, seeking to impose their beliefs on others.

Without question, there are extremists on both sides of the issue, and will probably always be.
I've never met any persons fitting the example you presented, but I did have to move my daughter to another public school when I found one of her teachers was teaching from the bible. As long as religious beliefs are taught in Sunday school, I have no problem with them.

 

[ArtemisBarca]

I do believe there is more to existence than what we sense with our mortal shells. There is no proof of it just like there's no proof of multiverses, how the Singularity came to be or other dimensions.

There's a reason why most atheists, especially militant ones, are young. Teenagers and people who never matured past their early 20s. I'm not seeking to convert you or anyone else so, therefore, there is no burden. I mostly have a lot of questions and very little evidence. OTOH, since the militant atheists are asserting a specific belief style, the burden is on them to prove it to others or shut up and live and let live.

Sent from a mountain of Reason to those wallowing in the atheist muck of self-righteousness.

A) What are you talking about???!

Every 19 year old I know believes in spirituality and all the atheists I know are around 40 years old..

Every celebrity atheist is at least 40..

B) have you never heard the saying that you cannot prove a negative?!?!?!

It is VERY common knowledge

People who do not believe in dragons do not have to prove dragons do not exist... first you have to prove dragons exist..

People who do not believe in Bigfoot do not have to prove Bigfoot doesn’t exist...




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[ArtemisBarca]

I do believe there is more to existence than what we sense with our mortal shells. There is no proof of it just like there's no proof of multiverses, how the Singularity came to be or other dimensions.

There's a reason why most atheists, especially militant ones, are young. Teenagers and people who never matured past their early 20s. I'm not seeking to convert you or anyone else so, therefore, there is no burden. I mostly have a lot of questions and very little evidence. OTOH, since the militant atheists are asserting a specific belief style, the burden is on them to prove it to others or shut up and live and let live.

Sent from a mountain of Reason to those wallowing in the atheist muck of self-righteousness.

PS there is no direct evidence of a multiverse..

We got just about everything else figured out.. at least the broad strokes.


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[Divine_Wind]

Without question, there are extremists on both sides of the issue, and will probably always be.
I've never met any persons fitting the example you presented, but I did have to move my daughter to another public school when I found one of her teachers was teaching from the bible. As long as religious beliefs are taught in Sunday school, I have no problem with them.

Isn't teaching from the Bible in a public school illegal? Unless it was a class on comparative religions and she was also using other religious texts with no bias toward or against any of them.

 

[Divine_Wind]

A) What are you talking about???!

Every 19 year old I know believes in spirituality and all the atheists I know are around 40 years old..

Every celebrity atheist is at least 40..

B) have you never heard the saying that you cannot prove a negative?!?!?!

It is VERY common knowledge

People who do not believe in dragons do not have to prove dragons do not exist... first you have to prove dragons exist..

People who do not believe in Bigfoot do not have to prove Bigfoot doesn’t exist...

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A) Odd report, but not my experience. Do the people you hang within spend a lot of time complaining? Bitching about how life sucks in between taking tokes of weed?

Age distribution among atheists - Religion in America: U.S. Religious Data, Demographics and Statistics | Pew Research Center

B) Yes. Have you ever heard that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence? Have you ever taken and passed a college level class on Logic?

 

[ArtemisBarca]

A) Odd report, but not my experience. Do the people you hang within spend a lot of time complaining? Bitching about how life sucks in between taking tokes of weed?

Age distribution among atheists - Religion in America: U.S. Religious Data, Demographics and Statistics | Pew Research Center

B) Yes. Have you ever heard that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence? Have you ever taken and passed a college level class on Logic?

Nope..

Just pointing and laughing at grown people who still believe in Santa clause..


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[ArtemisBarca]

A) Odd report, but not my experience. Do the people you hang within spend a lot of time complaining? Bitching about how life sucks in between taking tokes of weed?

Age distribution among atheists - Religion in America: U.S. Religious Data, Demographics and Statistics | Pew Research Center

B) Yes. Have you ever heard that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence? Have you ever taken and passed a college level class on Logic?

PS didn’t you make the argument that Christians need god to stop them from raping and murdering?!!

Lol

And atheists are complainers?!?!



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[Divine_Wind]

PS didn’t you make the argument that Christians need god to stop them from raping and murdering?!!

Lol

And atheists are complainers?!?!

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No, but thanks for trying to read that into my posts. It helps explain your psyche.

Yes, they are, but no more than theists. Human beings, regardless of beliefs, seem to be evenly divided with those who are cowardly and complain a lot and those gird themselves and push forward with little or no complaint.

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[Individual]

Isn't teaching from the Bible in a public school illegal? Unless it was a class on comparative religions and she was also using other religious texts with no bias toward or against any of them.

My daughter was schooled abroad.

 

[Divine_Wind]

My daughter was schooled abroad.

Which removes it outside the parameters of discussing schooling in the US.

 

[ArtemisBarca]

No, but thanks for trying to read that into my posts. It helps explain your psyche.

Yes, they are, but no more than theists. Human beings, regardless of beliefs, seem to be evenly divided with those who are cowardly and complain a lot and those gird themselves and push forward with little or no complaint.

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A) I apologize must have been Elvira concerning the “rape and murder” reply.. she tried to play the whole “ Jesus is the only reason people do not instantly murder each other ?!? “ line..

Lol
B)

BWAHAHAHAHA


You have got to stop believing everything Fox News tells you...

There is no one box you can shove ANY large group of people into..

For example..
I am a 40 year old white male from Mississippi.. I do construction , working 6, 12 hour days.. some days swinging an 18lb sledgehammer or shoveling gravel for the full 10 hours of labor in 100 degree heat, if we are subtracting lunch and such..

I am hard as a coffin nail, have a full Six pack without seeing the inside of a gym in 2 decades.. lol

Not by choice mind you or because I am special.. if you swing a sledge for the next few years and you will FOR SURE be hard as a coffin nail too..

Not exactly your Fox News , unemployed tranny living in moms basement, cartoon lib. Lol



C) I have met MANY cartoon racist conservatives in real life.. I did grow up in Mississippi, so I’m sure that skews the bell curve a bit..

BUT I HAVE NEVER ONCE MET A FOX NEWS STYLE CARTOON LIBERAL...

Never once..

I guess some would have to exist, but few enough that I have never met one...

I can think of no conservative conspiracy theory that does not apply to..

Never met anyone who wanted guns banned and confiscated..

Never met anyone who wanted open boarders

Never met anyone who wanted abortion to the last instant..

Never even one...

There is a reason no one is ever arguing against most conservative talking points... they fabricate bad guys because conservative propaganda is scripted for stupid people..






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[Individual]

Which removes it outside the parameters of discussing schooling in the US.

The missionaries who were responsible were from the U.S. and Australia, LDS and Catholics.

 

[Divine_Wind]

....BWAHAHAHAHA

You have got to stop believing everything Fox News tells you...

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BWA-HA-HA-HA-HAAAA

I watch CNN. You need to stop believing whatever the voices in the magic light box are telling you.

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[Divine_Wind]

The missionaries who were responsible were from the U.S. and Australia, LDS and Catholics.

So? Did your country's laws handle it?

 

[ArtemisBarca]

BWA-HA-HA-HA-HAAAA

I watch CNN. You need to stop believing whatever the voices in the magic light box are telling you.

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You mean the voices of the scientists who make all the miracles we use everyday???

Like cell phones, the internet and TV????



Don’t get stuff messed up.. I am pushing the normal mainstream historical and scientific findings..

You are pushing the fairy tales with ghosts, alternate dimensions....

So you do not get to appeal to authority, because no one running anything related to science or history agrees with you..


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[Individual]

So? Did your country's laws handle it?

I handled it by moving my daughter to another school.

 

[Divine_Wind]

You mean the voices of the scientists who make all the miracles we use everyday???

Like cell phones, the internet and TV????



Don’t get stuff messed up.. I am pushing the normal mainstream historical and scientific findings..

You are pushing the fairy tales with ghosts, alternate dimensions....

So you do not get to appeal to authority, because no one running anything related to science or history agrees with you..


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ROFLMAO. If you've actually read my posts you'd realize your false accusations are somewhere between silly and insanely moronic.

Sorry, but there is nothing to be gleaned from someone who sees only what he wants to see, posts false accusations against others and then claims only he is the one who is sane, rational and scientific.

Good luck, sir.

 

[Divine_Wind]

I handled it by moving my daughter to another school.

So what was the problem? They broke the law, it was handled, you chose to go to another school. S**t happens.

 

[Individual]

So what was the problem? They broke the law, it was handled, you chose to go to another school. S**t happens.

I had a problem with my daughter being taught myth as fact, and I resolved it. No law I'm aware of was broken. If people want their children raised to believe in God(s), Church and Sunday school is the place to do it.

 

[Daisy]

A) I apologize must have been Elvira concerning the “rape and murder” reply.. she tried to play the whole “ Jesus is the only reason people do not instantly murder each other ?!? “ line..

Lol
B)

BWAHAHAHAHA


You have got to stop believing everything Fox News tells you...

There is no one box you can shove ANY large group of people into..

For example..
I am a 40 year old white male from Mississippi.. I do construction , working 6, 12 hour days.. some days swinging an 18lb sledgehammer or shoveling gravel for the full 10 hours of labor in 100 degree heat, if we are subtracting lunch and such..

I am hard as a coffin nail, have a full Six pack without seeing the inside of a gym in 2 decades.. lol

Not by choice mind you or because I am special.. if you swing a sledge for the next few years and you will FOR SURE be hard as a coffin nail too..

Not exactly your Fox News , unemployed tranny living in moms basement, cartoon lib. Lol



C) I have met MANY cartoon racist conservatives in real life.. I did grow up in Mississippi, so I’m sure that skews the bell curve a bit..

BUT I HAVE NEVER ONCE MET A FOX NEWS STYLE CARTOON LIBERAL...

Never once..

I guess some would have to exist, but few enough that I have never met one...

I can think of no conservative conspiracy theory that does not apply to..

Never met anyone who wanted guns banned and confiscated..

Never met anyone who wanted open boarders

Never met anyone who wanted abortion to the last instant..

Never even one...

There is a reason no one is ever arguing against most conservative talking points... they fabricate bad guys because conservative propaganda is scripted for stupid people..






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Well, that is a complete lie...maybe you just dreamed up the convo in your head...:roll: