Watchdog: Russian-Made Arms in Rebel-Held Eastern Ukraine

[Westphalian]

Fledermaus - There is a civil war in Ukraine. Russia supports the separatists - I acknowledge this, and I think it's Russia's constitutional duty to defend ethnic Russians.

I reject the term 'invasion' because the separatist regions are under the control of the Ukrainians who live there, not of some Moscow appointed governor supported by Russian military forces. This is not an occupation.

 

[Chagos]

More comedy with this

Repeating nonsense with no justification might make someone feel good, but it doesn't convince anybody ....... not really.

Indeed not.

And if the chief poster of said rubbish had more self-awareness, he'd stop.

 

[Chagos]

Ukrainian separatists are in no way legitimized to call in foreign forces.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Fledermaus - There is a civil war in Ukraine.

No civil war. There are Russian sympathizers armed by the Kremlin and receiving their orders from the GRU (and the GRU receives its Ukraine orders from Putin's personal adviser Vladislav Surkov).

Without the massive Kremlin financial and military support, the Ukraine SBU and National Police would have arrested the traitors within days.

 

[Westphalian]

If you mean there are Ukrainian citizens who are ethnic Russians, who speak Russian, who live very close to Russia, whose economic and family wellbeing depends in part on Russia, and who have more in common with Russia than with the putsch regime which forced out a President they voted for - then yes.

Of course there are many Ukrainians who relate more closely to Russia than the foreign regime in Kiev.

That's why it's a civil war!

 

[Rogue Valley]

If you mean there are Ukrainian citizens who are ethnic Russians, who speak Russian, who live very close to Russia, whose economic and family wellbeing depends in part on Russia

Ukrainian citizens who worked in Russia and/or wished to travel to Russia experienced no obstacles. If any Ukrainians wish to live permanently in Russia, they know where the border is. Go.

That's why it's a civil war!

No such animal. The Kremlin used "protecting Russian speakers" as its excuse for invading both Crimea and the Donbas. Why is the Russian military not occupying Odessa and Kharkiv, both Russian speaking cities?

Then again, after the Russian election protests of 2012 and the seeing the crook Yanukovych having to flee Ukraine, Putin needed some wins and fast. Voila! Crimea and Donbas! Easy military plunder.

The war in Donbas has been going on now for four years. This year the UA has recaptured ~15km[sup]2[/sup]. Moscow has no interest whatsoever in annexing destroyed-occupied Donbas. That would be a worse ruble-drain than Crimea.

The Kremlin maintains the Donbas occupation to: (1) ensure continued Ukraine financial problems and (2) NATO will not consider any nation for membership that suffers occupied territory or border disputes.

Moscow certainly doesn't want a democratic, prosperous, and possibly EU Ukraine (like today's Poland) right on its doorstep. Then the Russian people could plainly see had badly their country is being managed.

Far better to have a poor and destitute Donbas right next door. Geezuz. You seem fairly bright. Moscow doesn't want Donbas. The occupied territory and its people simply serve as a tool for Kremlin policy goals.

 

[Westphalian]

Rogue - I agree with most of your analysis .

Where we disagree I think is that have a rather liberal and loose definition of 'invasion' and 'occupation'.

I don't deny that Russia has on occasion surged forces to repel Ukrainian advances, such as as Debaltseve. But in general the rebels are Ukrainian, although armed and trained by Russia.

Donbas is, as you say, useful to Russia only while it's a part of Ukraine. There is no prospect of the general population there wanting to be at the mercy of Kiev and its military and paramilitary, sometimes nationalist and neo Nazi, forces. Thus Russia is more a protector than an occupier.

 

[Linc]

Rogue - I agree with most of your analysis ��.

Where we disagree I think is that have a rather liberal and loose definition of 'invasion' and 'occupation'.

I don't deny that Russia has on occasion surged forces to repel Ukrainian advances, such as as Debaltseve. But in general the rebels are Ukrainian, although armed and trained by Russia.

Donbas is, as you say, useful to Russia only while it's a part of Ukraine. There is no prospect of the general population there wanting to be at the mercy of Kiev and its military and paramilitary, sometimes nationalist and neo Nazi, forces. Thus Russia is more a protector than an occupier.

Why not quote the Poster to Whom you’ve directed this Post.

There will NEVER Be a False Equivalence between Ukraine and the Soviets Retaking their Lost but Now Found Empire.

 

[Fledermaus]

Rogue - I agree with most of your analysis .

Where we disagree I think is that have a rather liberal and loose definition of 'invasion' and 'occupation'.

I don't deny that Russia has on occasion surged forces to repel Ukrainian advances, such as as Debaltseve. But in general the rebels are Ukrainian, although armed and trained by Russia.

Donbas is, as you say, useful to Russia only while it's a part of Ukraine. There is no prospect of the general population there wanting to be at the mercy of Kiev and its military and paramilitary, sometimes nationalist and neo Nazi, forces. Thus Russia is more a protector than an occupier.

Always the "Neo Nazi" card....

Why?

Anyone who can read knows "Neo Nazis" make up but a tiny fraction of the Ukrainian forces.

It smacks of Stalinist era propaganda.

 

[Linc]

Always the "Neo Nazi" card....

Why?

Anyone who can read knows "Neo Nazis" make up but a tiny fraction of the Ukrainian forces.

It smacks of Stalinist era propaganda.

Russian Mafia #45 is Destroying the USA and GOPutins approve.

Golfing every weekend, and GOPutins complained about a Real, Patriotic and Honorable President.

These are NOT the GOP Senators of 1974 and you damn well know it.

 

[Fledermaus]

Russian Mafia #45 is Destroying the USA and GOPutins approve.

Golfing every weekend, and GOPutins complained about a Real, Patriotic and Honorable President.

These are NOT the GOP Senators of 1974 and you damn well know it.

That has WHAT to do with the post you quoted?

 

[Fledermaus]

Fledermaus - There is a civil war in Ukraine. Russia supports the separatists - I acknowledge this, and I think it's Russia's constitutional duty to defend ethnic Russians.

I reject the term 'invasion' because the separatist regions are under the control of the Ukrainians who live there, not of some Moscow appointed governor supported by Russian military forces. This is not an occupation.

The Russian Constitution says one must invade its neighbors?

Where?

Can you quote it?

And no one cares if YOU reject the term invasion. That is exactly what it is. ARMED RUSSIAN FORCES IN A NATION OTHER THAN RUSSIA AND THEY WEREN'T INVITED BY THE HOST NATION = INVASION.

 

[Westphalian]

The Russian Constitution says one must invade its neighbors?

Where?

Can you quote it?

And no one cares if YOU reject the term invasion. That is exactly what it is. ARMED RUSSIAN FORCES IN A NATION OTHER THAN RUSSIA AND THEY WEREN'T INVITED BY THE HOST NATION = INVASION.

Unlike the US, Russia is a peace loving nation which respects the sovereignty of all states.

Article 61 (2) of the constitution states:


The Russian Federation shall guarantee its citizens protection and patronage abroad.


In the case of Crimea and Donbas, Russian citizens were threatened by armed forces and paramilitary gangs under the control of a putsch regime for the mere fact they were Russian. It was the constitutional duty of the President to act to protect them.

 

[Fledermaus]

Unlike the US, Russia is a peace loving nation which respects the sovereignty of all states.

Article 61 (2) of the constitution states:


The Russian Federation shall guarantee its citizens protection and patronage abroad.


In the case of Crimea and Donbas, Russian citizens were threatened by armed forces and paramilitary gangs under the control of a putsch regime for the mere fact they were Russian. It was the constitutional duty of the President to act to protect them.

Russia respects borders except when they don't.

RUSSIAN citizens.

RUSSIAN.

As in RUSSIAN.

Your quote does not apply to the citizens of the UKRAINE.

Those two regions are part of UKRAINE.

Ergo the Russians have invaded.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Rogue - I agree with most of your analysis .

Where we disagree I think is that have a rather liberal and loose definition of 'invasion' and 'occupation'.

Anytime Russian military forces roll over a border uninvited, that is an invasion. What the occupied DNR/LNR territories have now - Zakharchenko and Pasechnikis respectively - are proxy occupation-governments.

If Surkov wanted any of them gone (such as Plotnitsky), they'd be gone tomorrow. Either willingly or via an "accident".

I don't deny that Russia has on occasion surged forces to repel Ukrainian advances, such as as Debaltseve. But in general the rebels are Ukrainian, although armed and trained by Russia.

Besides cross-border artillery/GRAD fire, Ilovaiskaya and Debaltseve certainly. The way the forces are currently structured by the GRU, Ukrainian rebels are Tier I (30,000/cannon fodder) and the Russian military is Tier II (15,000/QRF/Reserves). Moscow finances, feeds, and arms its proxy force in eastern Ukraine. Beans, bullets, and benzine as we used to say. Without this massive Russian assistance, the rebels would sue for surrender in a month at most. And that estimate is not factoring-in any Ukrainian air power.

Donbas is, as you say, useful to Russia only while it's a part of Ukraine.

Indeed. Russia has no need of an outdated and decrepit industrialized sector. The coal sector is also outdated and dangerous, with salaries that cannot sustain families.

Besides that, infrastructure and environmental damages are significant. 64,000 structures destroyed. It will require ~25 years to de-mine the Donbas.

Russia has also stripped many factories and shipped the contents across the border. Nothing is being maintained properly. Corrupt local officials also seize lucrative private property for personal gain.

There is no prospect of the general population there wanting to be at the mercy of Kiev....

I disagree. When I lived in Odessa, I toured eastern Ukraine via motorcycle. I stopped in every small town and village I came across and chatted with the locals. There was of course some discontent with Kyiv, but never to any extent warranting bloodshed and succession. Many of the tensions in Ukraine are attributable to its history of elastic borders (invasions) and ethnic cleansings. In addition, the Soviets tried very hard to erase the Ukrainian language and traditions.

.... and its military and paramilitary, sometimes nationalist and neo Nazi, forces.

Due to the massive Yanukovych administration corruption, Ukraine could only muster ~16,000 trained and poorly equipped soldiers when government buildings and police stations in the east began falling to GRU organized attacks via Strelkov & Co. The only way to staunch this invasion was via volunteers. I admit that far right battalions were the majority early-on. They suffered horrendous beatings (Illovaisk and Debaltseve), but they did stop the Russian advance. After mandatory military conscription became law, the volunteer battalions were disbanded. There are no "Nazi" battalions in-theater. All 65,000 soldiers assigned to the JFO (Joint Forces Operation) in the east are mostly younger recruits from all over Ukraine. In addition, there are few (I can't think of even one) far-right politicians in the Rada.

Thus Russia is more a protector than an occupier.

Nyet. The Ukrainian government, freely elected by the Ukrainian people in 2014, declares the Russian forces on Ukrainian territory to be invaders and an occupation force.

Do you imagine that if Chinese divisions crossed the border and occupied Russian territory they would be considered "protectors"? C'mon. Let's be real.

 

[Chagos]

Russia respects borders except when they don't.

RUSSIAN citizens.

RUSSIAN.

As in RUSSIAN.

Your quote does not apply to the citizens of the UKRAINE.

Those two regions are part of UKRAINE.

Ergo the Russians have invaded.

I have two passports and both actually say that the issuers will guarantee me protection and patronage abroad (or words to that effect). So if I ever get my rights trodden upon elsewhere, there'll no doubt be two invading armies coming to my rescue. The filthy scoundrels of both countries however make the caveat of that not happening, should I also hold the nationality of the country that's currently screwing me.

One may ask how this applies in any way to the presence of Russian troops in Ukraine. Well, it doesn't.

I merely mention the whole thing to show that I also can make absurd arguments in justification. Main difference being that unlike our master of illogic, I'm aware of it.

 

[Chagos]

Hitler wasn't an invader of Czechoslovakia, merely a protector of the "Sudetendeutsche".

See, anyone can talk crap.:lamo

 

[Westphalian]

Due to the massive Yanukovych administration corruption, Ukraine could only muster ~16,000 trained and poorly equipped soldiers when government buildings and police stations in the east began falling to GRU organized attacks via Strelkov & Co. The only way to staunch this invasion was via volunteers. I admit that far right battalions were the majority early-on. They suffered horrendous beatings (Illovaisk and Debaltseve), but they did stop the Russian advance. After mandatory military conscription became law, the volunteer battalions were disbanded. There are no "Nazi" battalions in-theater. All 65,000 soldiers assigned to the JFO (Joint Forces Operation) in the east are mostly younger recruits from all over Ukraine. In addition, there are few (I can't think of even one) far-right politicians in the Rada.

Oh come on Rogue - you're a knowledgeable guy and surely you know that this is untrue.

Yes, I know what Kiev says, but the reality is that the private militia armies still exist, still operate, and are still often heavily influenced by neo nazi ideology and symbolism..

http://thehill.com/opinion/internat...in-the-ukraine-is-far-from-kremlin-propaganda

Azov’s neo-Nazi character has been covered by the New York Times, the Guardian, the BBC, the Telegraph and Reuters, among others. On-the-ground journalists from established Western media outlets have written of witnessing SS runes, swastikas, torchlight marches, and Nazi salutes. They interviewed Azov soldiers who readily acknowledged being neo-Nazis. They filed these reports under unambiguous headlines such as “How many neo-Nazis is the U.S. backing in Ukraine?” and “Volunteer Ukrainian unit includes Nazis.”

How is this Russian propaganda?

The U.N. and Human Rights Watch have accused Azov, as well as other Kiev battalions, of a litany of human rights abuses. In 2016, the Simon Wiesenthal Center caught Azov trying to recruit neo-Nazis in France; Brazilian authorities have uncovered similar attempts in Brazil. Azov’s official page on VK, a social media site used in Ukraine and Russia, features images of a white power tattoo and the Totenkopf symbol used by SS concentration camp guards and neo-Nazis today.

How is this Russian propaganda?

Ukraine’s far right, which encompasses more than Azov, regularly stages torchlight marches in honor of World War II-era Nazi collaborators (imagine Charlottesville, but with thousands of participants). On Jan. 1, Jewish media reported marchers chanting “Jews Out!” Last month, Radio Free Europe (RFE) — surely not an arm of the Kremlin — reported 20,000 marchers carrying torches in honor of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, which, according to RFE, “carried out vicious acts of ethnic cleansing in which tens of thousands of ethnic Poles in the region were killed.” RFE mentioned journalists spotting Nazi salutes during the march.

Kiev’s rehabilitation of Nazi collaborators — a hallmark of European far right movements — has been condemned by Jewish organizations including the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, the Simon Wiesenthal Center, the National Coalition Supporting Eurasian Jewry, Yad Vashem, and the World Jewish Congress.

This is not Russian propaganda.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Oh come on Rogue - you're a knowledgeable guy and surely you know that this is untrue.

Yes, I know what Kiev says, but the reality is that the private militia armies still exist, still operate, and are still often heavily influenced by neo nazi ideology and symbolism.

Almost every nation (Russia included) has its share of far-right outliers, über-nationalists, xenophobic's, neo-Nazis, Royalists, etc. But that doesn't mean they run the country lol.

I toured the ATO in Donbas and Luhansk just last year. There are no private or volunteer battalions remaining in Donbas. All are UA military units.

There are individual war veterans of 2014/2015 that voluntarily rolled over into the UA military, but no volunteer Pravyi Sektor battalions and no far-right/nationalist insignia anywhere.

I've also visited the Yavoriv Combat Training Center in western Ukraine (NATO/JMTG-U), and the National Police Academy in Kyiv. Again, nothing even remotely like you suggest.

If I were you, I'd stop partaking of the propaganda at Vesti Nedeli, 60 Minut, Fort Russ, etc. You're wayyyyy out there somewhere in Conspiracyville.

 

[Westphalian]

Almost every nation (Russia included) has its share of far-right outliers, über-nationalists, xenophobic's, neo-Nazis, Royalists, etc. But that doesn't mean they run the country lol.

I toured the ATO in Donbas and Luhansk just last year. There are no private or volunteer battalions remaining in Donbas. All are UA military units.

There are individual war veterans of 2014/2015 that voluntarily rolled over into the UA military, but no volunteer Pravyi Sektor battalions and no far-right/nationalist insignia anywhere.

I've also visited the Yavoriv Combat Training Center in western Ukraine (NATO/JMTG-U), and the National Police Academy in Kyiv. Again, nothing even remotely like you suggest.

If I were you, I'd stop partaking of the propaganda at Vesti Nedeli, 60 Minut, Fort Russ, etc. You're wayyyyy out there somewhere in Conspiracyville.

That's a lovely story Rogue, but you know, your personal tour of the ATO was unlikely to highlight these kind of extra legal militias.


My original link was to The Hill.

How about the Guardian and Human Rights Watch - are they also Russian propagandists? I can provide countless others too if you want, but I suspect that your eyes are closed on this subject.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...litia-takes-law-into-own-hands-neo-nazi-links

“There’s nothing inherently wrong with national socialism as a political idea,” says Alexei, another militia member, as the men move stealthily through moonlit trees frosted with ice. “I don’t know why everyone always associates it immediately with concentration camps.”

Besides illegal logging, the National Militia says it aims to crack down on street crime, drug dealing and public alcoholism. “There are many of us. We are not scared to use force to establish a Ukrainian order,” it said in a recent statement.

While Ukrainian law allows unarmed civilian organisations to assist law enforcement agencies, for many observers the ceremony in Kiev was reminiscent of 1930s Germany and kindled fears that Ukraine’s shaky democracy was in danger of being hijacked by an increasingly confident far right. National Corpus and other far-right parties are polling at less than 5%, but analysts say they could exploit Ukraine’s economic and social instability to boost their electoral chances.

“We are concerned about rising nationalism in Ukraine and the government’s seeming unwillingness to rein it in. Ukraine’s international donors and supporters should be very worried,” said Tanya Cooper, Ukraine researcher for Human Rights Watch.

 

[Fledermaus]

Oh come on Rogue - you're a knowledgeable guy and surely you know that this is untrue.

Yes, I know what Kiev says, but the reality is that the private militia armies still exist, still operate, and are still often heavily influenced by neo nazi ideology and symbolism..

The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda | TheHill

Azov’s neo-Nazi character has been covered by the New York Times, the Guardian, the BBC, the Telegraph and Reuters, among others. On-the-ground journalists from established Western media outlets have written of witnessing SS runes, swastikas, torchlight marches, and Nazi salutes. They interviewed Azov soldiers who readily acknowledged being neo-Nazis. They filed these reports under unambiguous headlines such as “How many neo-Nazis is the U.S. backing in Ukraine?” and “Volunteer Ukrainian unit includes Nazis.”

How is this Russian propaganda?

The U.N. and Human Rights Watch have accused Azov, as well as other Kiev battalions, of a litany of human rights abuses. In 2016, the Simon Wiesenthal Center caught Azov trying to recruit neo-Nazis in France; Brazilian authorities have uncovered similar attempts in Brazil. Azov’s official page on VK, a social media site used in Ukraine and Russia, features images of a white power tattoo and the Totenkopf symbol used by SS concentration camp guards and neo-Nazis today.

How is this Russian propaganda?

Ukraine’s far right, which encompasses more than Azov, regularly stages torchlight marches in honor of World War II-era Nazi collaborators (imagine Charlottesville, but with thousands of participants). On Jan. 1, Jewish media reported marchers chanting “Jews Out!” Last month, Radio Free Europe (RFE) — surely not an arm of the Kremlin — reported 20,000 marchers carrying torches in honor of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, which, according to RFE, “carried out vicious acts of ethnic cleansing in which tens of thousands of ethnic Poles in the region were killed.” RFE mentioned journalists spotting Nazi salutes during the march.

Kiev’s rehabilitation of Nazi collaborators — a hallmark of European far right movements — has been condemned by Jewish organizations including the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, the Simon Wiesenthal Center, the National Coalition Supporting Eurasian Jewry, Yad Vashem, and the World Jewish Congress.

This is not Russian propaganda.

What percentage of your boogie man Neo-Nazis make up the Ukraine military?

We know the Neo-Nazis have failed to make inroads in the political realm.

 

[Rogue Valley]

What percentage of your boogie man Neo-Nazis make up the Ukraine military?

There are millions. But they're invisible and no one can see them except Russians :ssst:

 

[beerftw]

There are millions. But they're invisible and no one can see them except Russians :ssst:

You are correct russia has nazi gaydar equipped on their tanks, ivan and antonov were going to pick out cutrains decorate the house and erdacitate teh jews, and they would have gotten away with it too if it were not for those meddling russians.

 

[slick]

Fledermaus - There is a civil war in Ukraine. Russia supports the separatists - I acknowledge this, and I think it's Russia's constitutional duty to defend ethnic Russians.

I reject the term 'invasion' because the separatist regions are under the control of the Ukrainians who live there, not of some Moscow appointed governor supported by Russian military forces. This is not an occupation.

Wouldn't the state of things at this time be considered a holding action rather than a civil war. I haven't been following recent events but they are
rarely in the news these days. I was of the impression that Debaltseve was decisive civil war battle. Ukraine after that I thought had given up
reclaiming lands won by the DPR & LPR.

I do agree that this was in no way an invasion. If Russia truly wanted to invade Ukraine they would be at the Dneiper River
within a week & be at Lviv the real heartland of the coup within a fortnight. Russia merely aided the 3 eastern provinces.

 

[Fledermaus]

Wouldn't the state of things at this time be considered a holding action rather than a civil war. I haven't been following recent events but they are
rarely in the news these days. I was of the impression that Debaltseve was decisive civil war battle. Ukraine after that I thought had given up
reclaiming lands won by the DPR & LPR.

I do agree that this was in no way an invasion. If Russia truly wanted to invade Ukraine they would be at the Dneiper River
within a week & be at Lviv the real heartland of the coup within a fortnight. Russia merely aided the 3 eastern provinces.

Crimea is what they primarily wanted. The other two are just to keep Ukraine out of NATO.

What do you call it when armed forces of another nation enter and reside in another nations' territory without the second nation's agreement?