• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Was Jesus hung on a cross?

For something to be an idol is for one to give that thing power. As long as the symbol was created by adherents as a symbol of God, I don't figure its employment in religious ceremony constitutes idolatry.

For example, the snake symbol in the desert that healed those bitten. Surely God did not command His people to commit idolatry. As that symbol was created at the endorsement of God and represented God's mercy, it apparently does not qualify as an idol.

I think it would be kinda dumb to have just a stick on a necklace. Early Christians went with a less common but possible method and an aesthetically superior symbol.
 
it's just me said:
So you are being dishonest again by implying something you can't prove.
Click to expand...

No, you are being dishonest by accusing me of revealing the contents of a pm when I did not...
 
Elvira said:
No, you are being dishonest by accusing me of revealing the contents of a pm when I did not...
Click to expand...

Then fill me in, what exactly were you doing? Your slippery slimy talk is highly suspect....
 
ecofarm said:
For something to be an idol is for one to give that thing power. As long as the symbol was created by adherents as a symbol of God, I don't figure its employment in religious ceremony constitutes idolatry.

For example, the snake symbol in the desert that healed those bitten. Surely God did not command His people to commit idolatry. As that symbol was created at the endorsement of God and represented God's mercy, it apparently does not qualify as an idol.

I think it would be kinda dumb to have just a stick on a necklace. Early Christians went with a less common but possible method and an aesthetically superior symbol.
Click to expand...

Seems like a semantics argument to me....

If you go around burning crosses or bibles , they are not just considered objects.. it is considered blasphemy.


The Bible is absolutely “given power” and in reality the Bible was compiled by people without any scientific understanding and the cannon was comprised of the oldest manuscripts they could find that matched the theology they backed...

So applying a piece of God’s divinity to every bible printed seems like a stretch for sure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
ArtemisBarca said:
Seems like a semantics argument to me...
Click to expand...

If you've another etymological approach to idolatry, let's have it.

"Giving power" means the object itself has power over creation or to direct the course of man. The employing of symbols is not, in and of itself, giving power.
 
Elvira said:
IJM has no idea what he's talking about and he claims to be a priest, of all things...the thought of a burning hell comes from paganism, not the Bible..
Click to expand...

Oh no...

It came about a thousand years after paganism died...

Mainstream opinion is that as people watched the wealthy and powerful sin, often violently , but never face earthly consequences.

The heaven and hell for the spirits of our ancestors is people’s attempt to justify the fact that OBVIOUSLY this world could care less about piety..

How do you wrap your head around the fact the devout sweet little old lady from the edge of town , who did nothing but help people and love the lord live and die suffering in squalor. While the local lord raped and pillaged with impunity???



You fabricate a fictional justice system to even the scales...

Now it doesn’t matter if the devout old lady suffered while the rapist lord prospered, because she is going to heaven and him to hell...

So everyone go back to work and pay your taxes and tithes..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
jamesbyoung said:
Torture stake or crucifix is not a salvation issue.
Click to expand...

I think it is really a shot being taken by one denomination at another denomination...

Which is SUPER SILLY......

That is complaining about the fact a fantasy movie has dragons , when dragons are not real, but you are perfectly fine with the wizard throwing fireballs.. lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Elvira said:
lol...I know what the Bible says about it...it is something detestable to God...

“‘Cursed is the man who makes a carved image or a metal statue, a thing detestable to Jehovah, the workmanship of the hands of a craftsman, and who has hidden it.’ (And all the people will respond, saying, ‘Amen!’)" Deuteronomy 27:15

"They took pride in the beauty of their ornaments, and they made with them their detestable images, their disgusting idols. That is why I will make it an abhorrent thing to them." Ezekiel 7:20


Leviticus 18:26-30; Deuteronomy 7:25,26; Isaiah 44:18-20...
Click to expand...

A) all those laws were thrown out with Jesus..

B) omg are there a gajillion statues and such of Jesus...

Also the Bible seems VERY worshipped to me..

Written from the individual accounts never intended to be a book in a cannon and compiled by men..



Call me crazy but the line between iconography and idolatry is SUPER blurry and totally subjective..

What one person calls reverence the other could call worship..


Seems to me the Muslims would have it right in this category by never making images of their religious figures.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
ArtemisBarca said:
A) all those laws were thrown out with Jesus..
Click to expand...

"Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the
prophets. I didn’t come to destroy, but to fulfill."
Click to expand...

This verse is central to the debate over the relationship between the New Testament and the Old Testament first begun by Marcion of Sinope. There are several parts of the New Testament where Jesus can be read as rejecting some tenets of Mosaic law. Issues include the traditional understanding of the Sabbath in Matthew 12:8, divorce laws in Matthew 5:31, and dietary prohibitions in Matthew 15:11.

The antinomian viewpoint holds that, because Jesus accomplished all that was required by the law, thus fulfilling it, he made it unnecessary for anyone to do anything further. Proponents of this view believe this view was described by the Apostles in Acts of the Apostles, and that the Jewish Christians overlooked such teaching as they continued to worship in Herod's Temple as prescribed by the Mosaic Law, even after the resurrection. According to this view, anyone accepting his gift of salvation would not only avoid consequences of failing to live up to the law, but is no longer expected to do any works of the law for any spiritual reason (See also Hyperdispensationalism).[2][3]

The opposite of antinomianism, is that the entire Torah Law is still entirely applicable to Christians; not for salvation, but rather for simple obedience. This interpretation stems primarily from the New Testament affirmation that Jesus Christ was sinless in every way (Hebrews 4:15), sin is defined by the Torah (1 John 3:4), and that Jesus' followers, both Jew and Gentile, are admonished to imitate Him in every way (1 John 2:6). This view affirms the six points of St. Augustine listed above, but differs from other traditional views by affirming obedience to specific commands of the Law such as dietary laws; laws to which other views teach obedience is no longer intended by God. Proponents of this view see Matthew 23:1-3 and 23:23 as evidence that Jesus did not negate any aspects of the Biblical Torah Law for his followers. Furthermore, they see it as a contradiction of Jesus' sinlessness (according to His own words, Matthew 5:19) for Him to have taught disobedience to any Torah command, no matter how small. For references for this view, see Christian views on the old covenant.
Click to expand...

Matthew 5:17 - Wikipedia
 
Elvira said:
IJM has no idea what he's talking about and he claims to be a priest, of all things...the thought of a burning hell comes from paganism, not the Bible..
Click to expand...

No, I do know what I'm talking about and I am a Priest, it's just that your fundie "theology" does not match up with reality. You have yet to explain why you follow the teachings of men rather than the Bible.
 
ecofarm said:
If you've another etymological approach to idolatry, let's have it.

"Giving power" means the object itself has power over creation or to direct the course of man. The employing of symbols is not, in and of itself, giving power.
Click to expand...

Easy...

Iconography is idolatry when concerning religion..

I am not religious at all, but that makes the Muslims not creating pictures of Mohammad far more logical theologically..


What I wonder is did the iconography start being allowed because of amazing artwork or for merchandising.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
it's just me said:
No, I do know what I'm talking about and I am a Priest, it's just that your fundie "theology" does not match up with reality. You have yet to explain why you follow the teachings of men rather than the Bible.
Click to expand...

None of your theologies match up to reality, lol...

If so then basically every scientist on the planet would be a Christian instead of atheists/agnostics.

Though you are espousing a far more mainstream view, she is right concerning some of the history..


She is for sure correct about first century Christians having no concept of a heaven and hell for the souls of the dead. All of that wasn’t added until at least a thousand years later..


Hell you can look at Jews today and they still only have a purgatory.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
ecofarm said:
Matthew 5:17 - Wikipedia
Click to expand...

On what planet are you on where “fulfilled” is a get out of jail free card to make changes , when the OT REPEATEDLY, says “never make any changes to my laws...

Additions are changes..

Subtractions are changes...


When “no one needs to do that any more because”..

That is a change..


That is like me and you having a contact for me to sell you a car for 5k. Then once you pay it off I say,

“ now that your contract is fulfilled , now is where part 2 kicks in that was not mentioned in the contract.. in part 2 you still keep paying me payments for another 2 years...


I am not changing the contract... I am fulfilling it..“

Ridiculous..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Elvira said:
IJM has no idea what he's talking about and he claims to be a priest, of all things...the thought of a burning hell comes from paganism, not the Bible..
Click to expand...

A burning hell does ring of paganism far more than it does the testaments of Jesus Christ.
 
calamity said:
A burning hell does ring of paganism far more than it does the testaments of Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...

Pagans only has a purgatory too...

Heaven and hell came from Christianity/Christians/Europeans....


Mainstream scholars think it was their attempt to explain away the fact that , just like today, being devout was no guarantee of safety or happiness..

How do you wrap your head around the fact the super devout little old lady at the edge of town lived a life of suffering and squalor while the local lord is raping and pillaging with abandon and never misses a meal and dies of old age surrounded by his loved ones????

You pretend that it will all be made fair in the afterlife..


The little old lady will get paradise and the lord torture.. all is fair in the world...


CONCLUSION)

I personally have to wonder if that is not intentional to combat uprisings.. well how long will the peasants stay silent and working if the lord is a monster and all the good Christians only suffer AND THERE IS NO HEAVEN OR HELL????


How many rebellions never happened because, “don’t worry about him son... god will make him pay in the afterlife. Just keep your head down and keep working.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
ArtemisBarca said:
Oh no...

It came about a thousand years after paganism died...

Mainstream opinion is that as people watched the wealthy and powerful sin, often violently , but never face earthly consequences.

The heaven and hell for the spirits of our ancestors is people’s attempt to justify the fact that OBVIOUSLY this world could care less about piety..

How do you wrap your head around the fact the devout sweet little old lady from the edge of town , who did nothing but help people and love the lord live and die suffering in squalor. While the local lord raped and pillaged with impunity???



You fabricate a fictional justice system to even the scales...

Now it doesn’t matter if the devout old lady suffered while the rapist lord prospered, because she is going to heaven and him to hell...

So everyone go back to work and pay your taxes and tithes..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Paganism is not dead...never was...it is you who fabricates...I don't pay tithes, never did...
 
ArtemisBarca said:
A) all those laws were thrown out with Jesus..

B) omg are there a gajillion statues and such of Jesus...

Also the Bible seems VERY worshipped to me..

Written from the individual accounts never intended to be a book in a cannon and compiled by men..



Call me crazy but the line between iconography and idolatry is SUPER blurry and totally subjective..

What one person calls reverence the other could call worship..


Seems to me the Muslims would have it right in this category by never making images of their religious figures.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Absolutely not...they fall under the law "love your God with all your heart"...
 
calamity said:
A burning hell does ring of paganism far more than it does the testaments of Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...

Not to mention, the false teaching of hellfire has been used to justify torture, including the burning at the stake of those who opposed church teachings...if that's not pagan, I don't know what is...
 
ArtemisBarca said:
Seems like a semantics argument to me....

If you go around burning crosses or bibles , they are not just considered objects.. it is considered blasphemy.


The Bible is absolutely “given power” and in reality the Bible was compiled by people without any scientific understanding and the cannon was comprised of the oldest manuscripts they could find that matched the theology they backed...

So applying a piece of God’s divinity to every bible printed seems like a stretch for sure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

By who...they're just objects, they have no magical powers, the power of the Bible comes from how it affects a person...no one can burn the Word of God out of a person's heart...
 
ArtemisBarca said:
I think it is really a shot being taken by one denomination at another denomination...

Which is SUPER SILLY......

That is complaining about the fact a fantasy movie has dragons , when dragons are not real, but you are perfectly fine with the wizard throwing fireballs.. lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Wrong...the danger is including objects in one's worship...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom