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Was Jesus hung on a cross?

What happens when something was thrown into that garbage dump? It was destroyed, burned up into cinders, which is why Gehenna was used by Jesus and his disciples to symbolize the eternal punishment of “second death,”...everlasting destruction, annihilation.​...Revelation 20:14; Matthew 5:22; 10:28...

Could it also be that there was no place of torment for the souls of human evil doers????


Like maybe first century Christians believed the non-believers would simply cease to exist, while the pious would be resurrected at the second coming, “in the flesh”.


That is the view of mainstream scholarship after all.


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Isn't bans on Idol Worship like one of the top three commandments?

Kinda like 3 of the Ten Commandments really...

Worship no other gods before me, blasphemy and idolatry are kinda the same things...


Strange he spent 3 on that and left off like slavery, rape and child molestation....


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Could it also be that there was no place of torment for the souls of human evil doers????


Like maybe first century Christians believed the non-believers would simply cease to exist, while the pious would be resurrected at the second coming, “in the flesh”.


That is the view of mainstream scholarship after all.


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We are basically saying the same thing...Jesus used the example of Gehenna in representing eternal destruction because he knew his listeners would understand all too well that anything thrown into that fire was completely destroyed...eternal destruction is different than death or the grave, where dead ones await the resurrection...those thrown into the lake of fire would not be resurrected, ever...as you said, they are out of existence, just as death and the grave will be out of existence...

"And death and the Grave were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14
 
Just to point out, crucification could have been a pole, and many were. I don't think the words that describe the crucification of Jesus in the bible are shape specific. It seems to me as an outsider looking it that the shape doesn't matter, and the concern is more of a dig by the JW's at Catholics than anything else.

Absolutely...


I don’t even think it is a secret that symbolism that was adopted might not be 100% accurate..


Take dec. 25th being Jesus’s birth day...


No one really thinks that was the day he was born?!?!

If one is going idolatry, that could include the accurate as well...


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We are basically saying the same thing...Jesus used the example of Gehenna in representing eternal destruction because he knew his listeners would understand all too well that anything thrown into that fire was completely destroyed...eternal destruction is different than death or the grave, where dead ones await the resurrection...those thrown into the lake of fire would not be resurrected, ever...as you said, they are out of existence, just as death and the grave will be out of existence...

"And death and the Grave were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14

Heard.


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In those days, wasn't it fairly common for (so-called) criminals to be crucified?

It depends on your crimes.

Crimes against the empire or government yes.
being a common thief probably not.

being a mass murderer then yes.

in most cases most criminals were saved for the arena.
 
We are basically saying the same thing...Jesus used the example of Gehenna in representing eternal destruction because he knew his listeners would understand all too well that anything thrown into that fire was completely destroyed...eternal destruction is different than death or the grave, where dead ones await the resurrection...those thrown into the lake of fire would not be resurrected, ever...as you said, they are out of existence, just as death and the grave will be out of existence...

"And death and the Grave were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14

There is more to the passage.
the passage in full context read something completely opposite of what you just posted.

13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

there is a verse 15 to end that chapter not 14.
 
There is more to the passage.
the passage in full context read something completely opposite of what you just posted.

13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

there is a verse 15 to end that chapter not 14.

Wrong...that is exactly what I said...those thrown into the lake of fire are destroyed, as is death and the grave...
 
You know the Watchtower claims that Christ wasn’t hung on a cross but on a pole. They throw rocks at all the other Christian religions for teaching that Jesus was crucified.

It is interesting that the “torture stake” theory was introduced not by Charles Taze Russell (founder of the Bible Students movement) but by none other than the trial lawyer, “Judge” Rutherford. Trial lawyers make their living by manipulating words. They can shade and change the meaning of words and testimony in order to change opinion or even question established fact.

Rutherford made his living doing this in court and he continued his assault when he seized control of the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society. He was a master at establishing doubt in the minds of his followers and he used it to great advantage while building a worldwide organization of followers who do nothing but parrot his failed and flawed theology.

The Watchtower has again introduced a “paper tiger”. Saying that Jesus wasn’t crucified has absolutely no basis in reality or the historical record. Yet some people fall for their flawed arguments because they fail to think critically for themselves.

The Watchtower Files

Saying that Jesus was crucified has absolutely no basis in reality of the historical record.

Fun to see someone who asserts that and who literally believes in magic whine about flawed arguments and, best of all, critical thinking.
 
Wrong...that is exactly what I said...those thrown into the lake of fire are destroyed, as is death and the grave...

You stopped at verse 14. there is a verse 15. which says that all those whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown in the lake of fire.

who are those that are not written? those that have not accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.
 
You stopped at verse 14. there is a verse 15. which says that all those whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown in the lake of fire.

who are those that are not written? those that have not accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

That was not the discussion...the discussion was hellfire or destruction...try to keep up...
 
It has always been my understanding that Roman practice was either a T or a cross, and it's not that important to me, but for as long as I have been dealing with JWs they have been making a bigger deal out of it than is really warranted.

I agree with you on this: It's not important.
 
Saying that Jesus was crucified has absolutely no basis in reality of the historical record.

Fun to see someone who asserts that and who literally believes in magic whine about flawed arguments and, best of all, critical thinking.

Millions throughout millennia disagree with you. Believe as you please, but that old-time religion's good enough for me. ;)
 
Millions throughout millennia disagree with you. Believe as you please, but that old-time religion's good enough for me. ;)

That's not particularly relevant, given that the historical record doesn't demonstrate that he was crucified; it shows only that millions believe he was.

Therein lies the difference.
 
I agree with you on this: It's not important.

The point of this thread was that it wasn't even part of their original canon, they didn't add it until the early 20th century, along with some of the other things added by Rutherford mentioned in the OP, yet we are constantly being lectured about "man made traditions" such as the creeds.

I'd like an explanation for that, but I probably won't get one.
 
The point of this thread was that it wasn't even part of their original canon, they didn't add it until the early 20th century, along with some of the other things added by Rutherford mentioned in the OP, yet we are constantly being lectured about "man made traditions" such as the creeds.

I'd like an explanation for that, but I probably won't get one.

BS...our beliefs are based on TRUTH...you should try it sometime...

July 2, 2010— -- For 2,000 years the crucifix has been a potent symbol of both Jesus Christ's death and Christianity. Now one Swedish theologian says that despite the crucifix's proliferation in art and literature, there is scant evidence in the Bible or other ancient sources to indicate that Christ was killed on a cross.

Gunnar Samuelsson, an evangelical preacher and theologian, says he spent three years combing thousands of ancient texts to research his recently completed 400-page doctoral thesis "Crucifixion in Antiquity."

What he discovered, he said, "came as a shock." While there were numerous references to "suspension devices" used for executions at the time of Christ's death, he could find no explicit references to the classic T-shaped cross.

"There is no distinct punishment called 'crucifixion,' no distinct punishment device called a 'crucifix' anywhere mentioned in any of the ancient texts including the Gospels," he told ABCNews.com.

Samuelsson devoutly believes the story of Jesus' death and resurrection, but says for generations people have misinterpreted and mistranslated the Greek word "stauros" to mean crucifix, when really the term just means a suspension device, which might have been anything such as a "pole or a tree trunk." The earliest versions of the New Testament were written in Greek.

"If you chose to just read the text and ignore the art and theology, there is quite a small amount of information about the crucifixion. Jesus, the Bible says, carried something called a stauros out to Calvary. Everyone thought it meant cross, but it does not only mean cross. We cannot say every instance of this noun, stauros refers to a cross," Samuelsson said.

Suspension devices, basically tall polls or pikes, were routinely used in the ancient world, by the Romans and their contemporaries, both as execution devices and for displaying the bodies of executed criminals and enemies as a public warning.

Part of what tipped Samuelson off to the apparent mistranslation, were routine references to things like fruits and dead animals being "crucified" in ancient texts, when translating the word as "suspended" makes more sense.
For Samuelsson, a 44-year-old pastor who is completing his research at the University of Gothenburg, his faith leads him to believe in the tradition that Jesus was suspended on a cross.


However, he says, "We don't know how those wicked people next to him on the right and on the left, were executed. Or what the devices looked like for people the day before or the day after."

"I am not saying no 'crucifixions' took place I the ancient world. But we cannot find evidence of them in the ancient texts," he added.

Given that the Romans were careful record keepers who wrote detailed and gruesome histories about their military conquests and lengthy legal treatises, it is strange that they would not have written plainly about their execution methods, he explained.

Jesus Christ May Not Have Died on Cross - ABC News
 
The issue of the "cross" has always been a historical problem, the terms "stauros" and "crux" at the time meant anything that allowed for someone punished to be held upright.

Could have been a single pole straight in the air with someone's hands bound above them, to something more "T" shaped where there was nothing behind someone's head but their arms were extended horizontally, to something that looks like a cross but not quite the eloquence of the symbolism used since by those of the faith to describe the event. It could have been a bloody mess from beatings and other torture before being hung on whatever, it could have ended in suffocation, or otherwise. It would be historically inaccurate to say it was a frenzy, but it was not exactly something so well versed that everyone who died that way did in the exact same way. Under the rule of the Roman Empire but in concert with more local Jewish leaders they used whatever they could.

No one ran off to Home Depot and crafted the perfect crucifix, and we do not really know if nails were used or not.

We assume a few of these things as a matter of faith from other text written long after all this, but no one was sitting there and writing all this down in exhausting detail.

No matter what happened, what history does seem to point to is everything was in place in advance so that it could be a warning to others. It is unlikely that anyone was wondering around with what they were ultimately hung from in some sort of parade, causing fear in others was the event of someone being placed on something like this. The person could have died in process or agonized for days but the intent was display for days and weeks after the fact.

We also know it was not some monumental event, there were times the Romans lined major routes with those punished on display or leaving bodies on the battlefield to rot.

These things tend to get romanced a little, stories embellished and enhanced to make a point about something from a perspective of lesson, and it takes us further away from the historical consistencies of the time.
 
BS...our beliefs are based on TRUTH...you should try it sometime...



Jesus Christ May Not Have Died on Cross - ABC News

You can't handle the truth. Ramos is right, you're just trolling the Catholics. And you still haven't explained why the stake wasn't part of the original Bible Students Canon and why you don't object to that the way you object to the Nicene Counsel.
 
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The issue of the "cross" has always been a historical problem, the terms "stauros" and "crux" at the time meant anything that allowed for someone punished to be held upright.

Could have been a single pole straight in the air with someone's hands bound above them, to something more "T" shaped where there was nothing behind someone's head but their arms were extended horizontally, to something that looks like a cross but not quite the eloquence of the symbolism used since by those of the faith to describe the event. It could have been a bloody mess from beatings and other torture before being hung on whatever, it could have ended in suffocation, or otherwise. It would be historically inaccurate to say it was a frenzy, but it was not exactly something so well versed that everyone who died that way did in the exact same way. Under the rule of the Roman Empire but in concert with more local Jewish leaders they used whatever they could.

No one ran off to Home Depot and crafted the perfect crucifix, and we do not really know if nails were used or not.

We assume a few of these things as a matter of faith from other text written long after all this, but no one was sitting there and writing all this down in exhausting detail.

No matter what happened, what history does seem to point to is everything was in place in advance so that it could be a warning to others. It is unlikely that anyone was wondering around with what they were ultimately hung from in some sort of parade, causing fear in others was the event of someone being placed on something like this. The person could have died in process or agonized for days but the intent was display for days and weeks after the fact.

We also know it was not some monumental event, there were times the Romans lined major routes with those punished on display or leaving bodies on the battlefield to rot.

These things tend to get romanced a little, stories embellished and enhanced to make a point about something from a perspective of lesson, and it takes us further away from the historical consistencies of the time.

Yeah, the best I could find on this was that no one knows for sure. It could have been a stake or a cross. But, apparently the cross seems to be the most likely case based on historical records of various testimonies from that era. Now, whether or not it was a Capital "T" or a small "t" is open for debate, I am sure.
 
You can't handle the truth. Ramos is right, you're just trolling the Catholics. And you still haven't explained why the stake wasn't part of the original Bible Students Canon and why you don't object to that the way you object to the Nicene Counsel.

lol...I could not care less what you or anyone else believes, but I will promote the truth about Jehovah God and Jesus Christ, with every chance i get...don't like it...don't read it and continue to be blind...and if you think he is taking up for you, guess again...if pm's could only talk...:2razz:
 
lol...I could not care less what you or anyone else believes, but I will promote the truth about Jehovah God and Jesus Christ, with every chance i get...don't like it...don't read it and continue to be blind...and if you think he is taking up for you, guess again...if pm's could only talk...:2razz:

Are you trying to tell me that Ramoss is badmouthing me via PM? Not only is that a rules violation but it's also a pretty crappy thing to do. But coming from you nothing surprises me anymore.
 
Are you trying to tell me that Ramoss is badmouthing me via PM? Not only is that a rules violation but it's also a pretty crappy thing to do. But coming from you nothing surprises me anymore.

Sweetie, everyone badmouths you...that's no secret...
 
Sweetie, everyone badmouths you...that's no secret...

So answer the question, are you revealing the contents of a private message?

And no, not everybody bad mouths me - just the crazies.
 
So answer the question, are you revealing the contents of a private message?

And no, not everybody bad mouths me - just the crazies.

No, I did not...i didn't even mention names...you did...now, go flee yourself...
 
No, I did not...i didn't even mention names...you did...now, go flee yourself...

So you are being dishonest again by implying something you can't prove.
 
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