Except thats not how it would work, because we see in cooepratives people that have more responsiblity generally get paid more ... just not rediculously more, I mean we have tons of examples of this.
Of course people that have more responsibility get paid more. Thats how it should be. But that has nothing to do with cooperatives. The individual has more responsibility so they get paid more. The individual that has less gets payed less. Thats the way it should be.
No it isn't ... they pay themselves, what gives them that right is not mental labor, its control of capital.
And how do they first get control of that capitol? Through thier mental acuity. It certainly isn't by sitting on thier ass.
Of coarse it is the right and moral way to go about it ... It is right and moral to take responsiblity for yourself and your well being, and not accept being a wage slave.
No, the right and moral way is to go and sit at a table and discuss merits. Not go outside and make a scene chanting some slogan that is worthless costing the company money. That just creates bad feelings and hardship for people that have nothing to do with your dispute.
I'm saying the workers should have a say.
They do have a say in thier wage. All they have to do is accept or not accept the wage offered at the date of hire. If they get hired and want more later on down the line then they should ASK, like adults. Not through temper tantrums like spoiled children.
Also having a part in the decision making would make them part of the management .... any argument you make against that is the same that monarchists would make against democracy.
Gotta love these silly statements. A company cannot work as a democracy. Again, look at our Senate and Congress to see what a democracy is like in action.
And what? 50 years ago you didn't have the saem wealth disaprity you have now ... I'm not saying everyone has to be equal, I'm saying everyone should have the same say in the decisions that effect their lives.
So? 50 years ago we also had more morals, and less greed. We have changed alot in 50 years.
And that is not what you are saying at all. You are saying that you want the grunts to have just as much say as those that built the company. Even the ones that just started working.
Nonsense, Capitalism HAS'NT always been around, infact socialist forms of organization existed before capitalism.
Wrong. The very first form of "government" if you can call it that was strength makes right. If you're stronger than the other guy then you can take what he has. Capitalism started the moment when Strength makes Right stopped being the main thing and people started trading one item for another. Even Germany, which you tout as being socialistic (which its not) (or at least the picture perfect way of unions) is based on capitalism.
As far as socialism never working ... thats nonsense, the system that can be taking advantage of more is Capitalism, infact it happens all the time, which is why now its basically run by a couple bankers.
Name me one socialist country that has worked.
... Its not a capitalistic of socialistic idea, its just a fact on how capitalism works, I'm not for or against it.
Contradictory. If its a socialistic idea (which its not) how can it also be based on capitalism which is the anti-thesis of socialism? Do you even know what socialism actually is?
Workers will never get their labors worth, because they are in the disadvantage of not holding capital.
Sure they will. And do. 7% of our working force is in a union in the US. 53% of our workforce is either middle class or rich....going by US standards of wealth. I would have to say that those that are middle class and rich easily get thier labor's worth. The lower 47% is debateable as to thier worth. And you cannot go by what the individual thinks that they are worth because they will always claim that they are worth far more than they really are.
The point is the workers will get fired, pensinos cut and so on before the CEO's compensation gets cut.
So? Considering the CEO has more invested into the company than the common worker it only makes since that they are not the first to get cut. Why should they be? Just because YOU don't see them doing anything does not mean that they don't.
BTW, I Have a question, over the last 20 years executive compensation has risen 300% ... have CEOs gotten 300% better?
Beats me. I'm not a CEO. I'm one of those lower 47% people. But it is quite possible with the advancements in technology making things easier to keep track of things that a CEO needs to keep track of.
Semantics ... Ownership is power.
So? Power does not equal bad. Power is neutral. It is how the power is used that makes good or bad.
Except IT DOES WORK .... you have many many examples of extremely successful cooperative firms ... infact the richest region in Europe is run mainly by cooperatives ... You're just talking out of ignorance.
Oh yes, the whole unionized Germany bit. Do you even know the differences between the US and Germany? I tried to point towards it once before but you ignored it. I'll ask again, How much greed is there in Germany compared to the US? (and yes, I already know the answer)
You're assuming that capitalist property is a natural right ... it isn't ... its a social construct.
If you want to get semantical any right is a social construct. But guess what. It doesn't matter what you think or not because in the US capitalist property (property period) IS a right. It is even in the Constitution. 5th and 14th Amendment.
My living room is not a social construct because it does'nt affect other peoples lives.
And items on shelves don't affect other peoples lives either. But we're not talking about inanimate objects. We're talking about you, your property.
BTW, if we want to expand on your idea that a CEO did not build the company from the ground up because of society then the same would apply to your living room. Because without society your living room would not have been able to have been built. Using your same arguement those that built your house has a right to say how that house is treated, lived in, what is in it, how much they should get for you living in it etc etc.