[W:#7426]How will Brexit go?***W:46]***

[Jack Hays]

Re: Brexit





Britain is left without a Brexit plan. It’s headed toward disaster.

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[Serenity]

Re: Brexit

Moderator's Warning:

Supers thread has been merged into the current Brexit thread.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Re: Brexit

There has been a notable lack of skillful UK political leadership going back at least as far as David Cameron's referendum promise. Theresa May is not up to the task, and Jeremy Corbyn is not an alternative for anyone who thinks about the matter for as much as thirty seconds.

True. Theresa May has utterly failed to build a consensus and she tried to foist her plan on Parliament. Ironically this plan was for the best Brexiteer's Brexit unless they were "no-deal" Brexiteers.

The EU's eurocrats have not helped the situation, but that's another discussion.

How so? If a club member chooses to leave a club, why should the remaining members or even trustees of that club make special rules or considerations for the person leaving? I've always laughed at posts on British forums and on my Facebook feed blaming the EU for something WE did or failed to do properly.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Re: Brexit

German Chambers of Commerce: "We don't want no deal BUT better a horrible ending than unending horror...."

Anyone who thinks the EU will do what it can to stop No Deal and cave in to the hard Brexiteers vision OR that Britain's exit will set off a domino effect continues to fool themselves.

 

[PeteEU]

I remember landing in Belfast once and somebody behind me mimicking the stewardess with "please fold up the table in front of you, put your backrest upright and turn you watches back 300 years".

The irony here is that Northern Ireland has been in part the birth place of the Tory anti-Europe stance.

The ECHR, a non EU entity setup by the British after WW2, ruled against the UK in the 1970s on human rights.

One time it was about the IRA and torture and the other was about the treatment of homosexuals in Northern Ireland.

After those 2 rulings the Tory party became increasingly hostile to Europe.

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[Westphalian]

Re: Brexit

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...u-latest-parliament-theresa-may-a8690886.html

But one need see that revoking Art. 50 would have to take place by (before) Mar-29, the current cut-off date.

Possibility exists of asking for that date to be extended, something which all EU governments (27) would have to agree to.
Totally agree.

On technicalities though, there's no real guarantee that another referendum would furnish a different result to the last one. Simply on account of people that are thick remain just that, thick.

In any case, a political majority would be required to start another referendum and lack of guts (on the side of the political scum) will preclude that from forming.

This attitude is incredibly unhelpful, not to mention plain silly.


To dismiss leave voters as 'thick' is the kind of pure crass arrogance which has entrenched division in the UK and made Remainers appear to be insufferably up their own self righteous selves.

 

[Aristaeus]

With just about everybody else, but this is Theresa we're talking about. She, who has taken cognitive dissonance to completely new heights.

Well, she can forget going to Brussels yet again, certainly right away. With that kind of TWO black eyes, nobody there is going to put any money on her ever again.
Yeah, May's individual cognitive dissonance is just a reflection of the general one.

But "no deal" is now the more likely option (once again:roll because a "no Brexit" won't appear automatically. It would require Art. 50 to be revoked and who has the guts to do that?

The EU have pretty much confirmed they will be open to a Custom Union deal Brexit. There will almost certainly be a delay to Brexit, and a Brexit deal where the UK stays in a custom union will end up being negotiated.

 

[Aristaeus]

Re: Brexit

This attitude is incredibly unhelpful, not to mention plain silly.


To dismiss leave voters as 'thick' is the kind of pure crass arrogance which has entrenched division in the UK and made Remainers appear to be insufferably up their own self righteous selves.

I think remainers have been proven to be correct, though. Brexit has turned out to a be a complete shambles. If Brexit happens, we will end up with a worse deal than if we stayed, and the process has already cost us billions.

 

[PeteEU]

Re: Brexit

"the laws that are not" is the issue... and no it started off as things to do with securing "an internal market", it has become much more than that now.

And can you point out such laws?

Number of people mean nothing to my point. The amount of power and influence is what makes the bureaucracy big.

Horse****... Bureaucracy by nature is defined by numbers. As for power and influence... what exact power does the EU have over say.. taxes, law enforcement, child credit allowance, military spending, election reform, taxes.. you know the stuff that effects people.

"The EU also advocats that governing be as close to the citizen as possible." Unless a country or people disagrees with it's policies....

No... give examples?

 

[Westphalian]

I think remainers have been proven to be correct, though. Brexit has turned out to a be a complete shambles. If Brexit happens, we will end up with a worse deal than if we stayed, and the process has already cost us billions.

Since Brexit hasn't happened yet it's absurd to say Remainers have been correct.

Yes, the negotiations have been shambolic, at least in part because Remainers have been totally negative and attempted to thwart the process at every turn.

But the benefits of Brexit can't be realised until it actually occurs. Arguing that leaving is a tortuous and painful process is not a strong argument for not leaving, and I think that those of a Leave persuasion are not taken in by such negativity. This is precisely why the UK remains divided. Remainers have convinced only themselves if their own righteousness.

 

[PeteEU]

Since Brexit hasn't happened yet it's absurd to say Remainers have been correct.

Yes, the negotiations have been shambolic, at least in part because Remainers have been totally negative and attempted to thwart the process at every turn.

But the benefits of Brexit can't be realised until it actually occurs. Arguing that leaving is a tortuous and painful process is not a strong argument for not leaving, and I think that those of a Leave persuasion are not taken in by such negativity. This is precisely why the UK remains divided. Remainers have convinced only themselves if their own righteousness.

What I would want to know is what benefits there are with Brexit....

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[Snazzy]

This wouldn't be the first time people in member states have had a "peoples vote" given back to them to vote how they "should" have done in the first place, according of course to the powers that be who gave them the vote in the first place. Ireland (twice for two issues) and Denmark. The Swedes kicked off when their leader's suggested a third vote on having the euro after losing the first two. Holland and France's "peoples vote" rejected joining the Lisbon treaty when it was called something else before that, was it the EU constitution treaty?. They didn't have a second vote of that though. They just got overridden by new governments after general elections.

Wouldn't surprise me if the UK didn't leave in the end, not one bit.

I think it's known as walk back results isn't it?

Norway twice voted not to join the EU, and I can't see another vote on joining any time soon.

 

[Higgins86]

May’s biggest achievement is that she’s united us all in our contempt for her.

 

[Chagos]

Re: Brexit

This attitude is incredibly unhelpful, not to mention plain silly.


To dismiss leave voters as 'thick' is the kind of pure crass arrogance which has entrenched division in the UK and made Remainers appear to be insufferably up their own self righteous selves.

Frankly I don't care in the least whether Brexiteers or their opposites condemn, endorse or assess my analysis in any other chosen way, the current fracas shows my assessment to be pretty much spot on.

I'm not here to massage anybody's sensibilities but to call spades where I find them to be spades.

That would incidentally extend to you as well, your above "throw-in" being what's really silly in its total non-sequitur quality.

If you think that one side today calling another whatever holds any pertinent relevance to what actually caused the country's massive division (long before this whole fustercluck), you are merely uttering your extreme ignorance on what governs emotions in the UK and in its history since the end of WWII.

And in the spirit of calling spades just that, people who have nothing of import to bring to the table should go and eat elsewhere.

But that's merely my opinion, to be taken or left at whose ever discretion.

 

[Chagos]

The EU have pretty much confirmed they will be open to a Custom Union deal Brexit. There will almost certainly be a delay to Brexit, and a Brexit deal where the UK stays in a custom union will end up being negotiated.

If you want to peddle any certainty in this here botch-up, go right ahead.

 

[Chagos]

Since Brexit hasn't happened yet it's absurd to say Remainers have been correct.

Yes, the negotiations have been shambolic, at least in part because Remainers have been totally negative and attempted to thwart the process at every turn.

But the benefits of Brexit can't be realised until it actually occurs. Arguing that leaving is a tortuous and painful process is not a strong argument for not leaving, and I think that those of a Leave persuasion are not taken in by such negativity. This is precisely why the UK remains divided. Remainers have convinced only themselves if their own righteousness.

You really should stay out of issues you're totally clueless over.

Alone the silly perception of Remainers being responsible for the shambolic outcome of negotiations shows just how clueless you are.

Maybe Satellite reception isn't so good in St. Petersburg these days (not having been there for some years, I wouldn't know) but anyone here with half a brain could see last night where "shambolism" actually hailed from.

 

[Chagos]

May’s biggest achievement is that she’s united us all in our contempt for her.

Well yeah, and it takes special talent to achieve that.

But for my part I'll add that contempt extends to just about everybody in the UK's current political class, certainly to those being dubbed as opposition.

In the opening statements yesterday I was of enthusiastic support of everything that Corbyn flung at May. But also of everything she flung back at him.

Such is the sad state of being these days when not only dissent crosses all party lines but contempt does the same.

 

[Manc Skipper]

Re: Brexit

This attitude is incredibly unhelpful, not to mention plain silly.


To dismiss leave voters as 'thick' is the kind of pure crass arrogance which has entrenched division in the UK and made Remainers appear to be insufferably up their own self righteous selves.

The only sensible option now is to withdraw A50.There is no deal on offer or in prospect that is better than what we already have. The only people who will benefit from Brexit are didaster capitalists like the ERG members (and May's husband)

 

[Chagos]

Re: Brexit

I think remainers have been proven to be correct, though. Brexit has turned out to a be a complete shambles. If Brexit happens, we will end up with a worse deal than if we stayed, and the process has already cost us billions.

The thing here is that the deal that May brought before parliament WAS worse than what staying would have signified.

I'd have rejected it myself on that count alone.

But NOT at the cost of having no other option than an unregulated crash-out.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Re: Brexit

But NOT at the cost of having no other option than an unregulated crash-out.

Not an economist, but I think a Brexit crash-out would be catastrophic economically.

What are the odds of another national referendum, or for forgetting any Brexit altogether?

 

[celticwar17]

Re: Brexit

And can you point out such laws?



Horse****... Bureaucracy by nature is defined by numbers. As for power and influence... what exact power does the EU have over say.. taxes, law enforcement, child credit allowance, military spending, election reform, taxes.. you know the stuff that effects people.



No... give examples?

Copyright laws, Immigration/refugee Laws, Internet Laws, economic regulations that do not benefit the country, labor laws, product bans, and the sovereignty to not be punished for wanted to change any of these things.

All Countries should have their own choice in the above.

"Horse****... Bureaucracy by nature is defined by numbers."

Number of people mean little to nothing in this instance. I told you what I meant by big, which big is a relative term.... and that's that.

Already gave you many examples....

 

[Snazzy]

Re: Brexit

The only sensible option now is to withdraw A50.There is no deal on offer or in prospect that is better than what we already have.

I do feel that a better deal was possible than the one Mrs May got, had someone else been Prime Minister.

 

[Snazzy]

Re: Brexit

The only way forward is to extend or revoke article 50 and have a genuine parliamentary debate on the available options on the table. Corbyn is playing a dirty political game, he is making out that there are other possible deals to be negotiated with the EU when he knows himself that any other deal to preserve the customs union has free movement of people attached to it. I just wish he stopped lying like the rest of them so everyone can all focus on fixing the UK's own very real problems. Time to stop wasting time on unicorns and focus on the NHS, education, tax evasion, universal credit, and everything else the Tories are getting away with.

Who really wants another five years like the last two and a half?

 

[Manc Skipper]

Freedom of movement is reciprocal, More than a million Britons living or working in Europe are screwed by Brexit, (though they didn't get a vote) while 3M Europeans who live and work in the UK (who didn't get a vote either) will be forced to register to get permission to continue living here in their own homes!

 

[Chagos]

Re: Brexit

Not an economist, but I think a Brexit crash-out would be catastrophic economically.

What are the odds of another national referendum, or for forgetting any Brexit altogether?

On occasion (and probably far too rarely) I know what's good for me. This is one of them in that anyone proposing to know what will happen in the current political closed ward, belongs right in there with the rest of the political inmates.:lol:

I mean, what sort of prognosis is any sane person supposed to make in a political society where a large part now actually works on the belief "Seeing how we've voted the deal down, Brussels now has to offer us a better one".

Economically speaking, assessing where the UK will be 10 years from now if it crashes out with a "no-deal" would require a crystal ball that actually works. Where it will be in the weeks, months and possibly years that follow a hard Brexit immediately, is more easy to see. Not sinking into the Atlantic by any means, but many possibly wishing they had.

Forgetting Brexit altogether is not an option since any address cannot be done in such a manner. Parliament has to become active, either in revoking Article 50 altogether or in calling for a second referendum (that may or may not endorse that first action). In the latter case having of course to ask the EU for an extension of the current timeline (leave date).

But this political class is clearly hell-bent on seeing to it that nobody does anything and that can and will (unless a majority group is formed that can finally get its individual fingers out) lead to an unregulated crash-out.

Today's no confidence vote is incidentally completely irrelevant. May will survive it (that's a prediction I WILL make), because the Tories and N.Ireland troglodytes that crashed her deal yesterday will today support her. If they didn't they'd come unstuck from the fleshpots they enjoy.