[W: 594] A great question for pro abortion types

[PirateMk1]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Scientifically there is absolutely no question whatsoever that the immediate product of fertilisation is a newly existing human being. A human zygote is a human being. It is not a "potential" or a "possible" human being. It is an actual human being with the potential to grow bigger and develop its capacities.

Hence the great question when should said human being be afforded the right to life regardless their status in the womb of another human being.

 

[concernedpuma]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

A fetus is the species homo sapien. Whether "human" is another question.

If a person is truly brain dead but machines keeping the body going as the bones literally slowly dissolve away until the family agrees to cut off water and nutrition, did the family members and medical staff murder a human and be convicted of 1st degree pre-meditated murder?

Well, I guess the idea that one can be a modern day homo-sapien and not Human would depend on your own experience. I admit to wondering about that myself when going go the Mall!
That aside out of the way; I am sure there are times when letting go, is the best expression of love. I just can't accept that for the new branches of our Human tree. My life has been filled with awe and love. To deny that very simple existence to another is not mine, nor yours, to make.
Regards,
CP

 

[nekrodev]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Hence the great question when should said human being be afforded the right to life regardless their status in the womb of another human being.

The obvious answer should be once they're no longer literally physically dependent on the mother, since then they should have their own autonomy. That would almost certainly be pretty close to the end of pregnancy.

A less obvious answer could be when it's brain develops higher functions and pain, around 20 weeks,which is about where the current limitations are in most states that haven't passed ridiculous and unconstitutional restrictions. Anything past that is usually reserved for cases of rape or harm to the health of the mother.

 

[concernedpuma]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

You need to brush up on your reading comprehension skills before you try to interact with others on the Internet.

Please....
try a logical or meritorious reply, or leave others alone. Your cheap and hollow reply will keep your betters from corresponding with you. Nonetheless,
Regards,
CP

 

[concernedpuma]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Well one cannot discuss it without the "vessel" as you so weirdly call it because it is HER body we are talking about. It is her life, her health, her future and her choice that we are talking about. And it is not malleable, I just take a few weeks of margin of error. The higher brain functions start developing in the womb between 21 and 23 weeks if I am not mistaken and I take a few weeks margin of error and then I get between week 18 and 20 when elective abortions really should not be allowed anymore.

Because to me sentience and brain function matter much more than DNA or other developments of the fetus. It is our higher functioning brain that differentiates us from animals, it is that which makes humans so successful and when our brain functions die out, our being ends with it, even if our body is being kept alive.

And society has an interest in children that are wanted. We already over populate the planet, we no longer need to have that many children to keep our population going because people are getting older (healthier) and because child death has really dropped off a lot.

Strange Pete, you don't seem to understand Human reproduction. No different than any other species, nature culls out females to be the carrier of the unborn. It isn't a burden, it is a gift. It is also curious that you write, we already overpopulate the planet. It isn't WE it. Is the third world with their social norms that are adding numbers. Not the U.S. Give them BC and a s good reason not to have more than their society can handle and the World overpopulation problem will disappear.
Regards,
CP

 

[nekrodev]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Please....
try a logical or meritorious reply, or leave others alone. Your cheap and hollow reply will keep your betters from corresponding with you. Nonetheless,
Regards,
CP

Good thing I'm not responding to any of my betters. I'm responding to someone who can't comprehend simple English. You literally misread or misunderstood EVERY PART of my post.

 

[Peter King]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Strange Pete, you don't seem to understand Human reproduction. No different than any other species, nature culls out females to be the carrier of the unborn. It isn't a burden, it is a gift. It is also curious that you write, we already overpopulate the planet. It isn't WE it. Is the third world with their social norms that are adding numbers. Not the U.S. Give them BC and a s good reason not to have more than their society can handle and the World overpopulation problem will disappear.
Regards,
CP

Actually I understand human reproduction perfectly, just because I disagree with your views does not mean I do not understand it.

And no, we are not like any other species. And even other species can abort children or kill their own offspring after birth. And it is WE, because the first world is more than just the USA. We in the Netherlands are over populating the earth. We as humans are over using the planet already. The world is full enough already, we cannot damage the planet anymore to keep the current population ticking over with regard to food, fuel, water, etc. etc. etc.

And you are right, all systems of birth control and abortion should be given to the third world to stop the rise in population.

 

[nekrodev]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Actually I understand human reproduction perfectly, just because I disagree with your views does not mean I do not understand it.

And no, we are not like any other species. And even other species can abort children or kill their own offspring after birth. And it is WE, because the first world is more than just the USA. We in the Netherlands are over populating the earth. We as humans are over using the planet already. The world is full enough already, we cannot damage the planet anymore to keep the current population ticking over with regard to food, fuel, water, etc. etc. etc.

And you are right, all systems of birth control and abortion should be given to the third world to stop the rise in population.

This is the second post you've mentioned it, so I just wanted to chime in and remind you that overpopulation is literally a myth and you should probably stop using that for any argument. In most developed countries, the population isn't even growing at sustainable rates anymore anyway. As in, our population will be decreasing, unless we get more immigrants.

 

[concernedpuma]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Good thing I'm not responding to any of my betters. I'm responding to someone who can't comprehend simple English. You literally misread or misunderstood EVERY PART of my post.

I scrolled back as far as I could tolerate, but somehow missed your oh so poignant post!
Yes, it is lucky you are replying to me. I have a soft spot. I am willing to listen. Just write something other than goofy insults. Failing that, many of my betters (and certainly yours) will eat your lunch!
Let us know your deep convictions and wait for reply. That is the way this board works. Did you know that?
Regards,
CP

 

[Obscurity]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Do you somehow see yourself as exempt from any spiritual(call it moral stops if you like that better) feeling at all? There have been those who would lie and steal from the religious. That is wrong, no question. But to state that religious fiat is to blame for anything you and I would consider frivolous law, is a far leap. Understanding that the Ten Commandments are the tenements the religious among us choose to live by: Please state which Commandment you consider odious abuse and anti-humanitarian. I am certainly interested in what I and others may have missed, and where you can straighten us out. By the way, had you considered becoming a member of the Atheist paratroopers? You could land in Iran and quickly fix the whole religious mess. Oh, no interest? Then continue attacking the Christian religion from the safety your basement.
I defy you to make an anti-Islamist statement! You won't, because religion won't hunt you down and cutoff your head. Some Muslims will. Leave Christians alone and in Peace.
Regards,
CP

Though shalt keep no other gods before me itself engenders violence.

The same can be said of the commandment against idols.

Claims against muslims? Muslims are an extreme minority in the us compared with the Christian voting block. However, you're ****ing with the wrong bull.

I lump Christian's who fight against others having rights directly with the Muslim zealots who claim the authority to wage jihad in the name of their fake God. To me it's one and the same.

Leave you alone and in peace? Gladly! The second you get Christians to do just that with the rest of us and stop trying to pass their faith into legislative fiat I will leave you alone.

 

[nekrodev]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

I scrolled back as far as I could tolerate, but somehow missed your oh so poignant post!
Yes, it is lucky you are replying to me. I have a soft spot. I am willing to listen. Just write something other than goofy insults. Failing that, many of my betters (and certainly yours) will eat your lunch!
Let us know your deep convictions and wait for reply. That is the way this board works. Did you know that?
Regards,
CP

You missed it the first time, I'm not surprised you missed it again. Like I said, you should start back with the fundamentals of reading comprehension, because that's your weak point.

 

[Hari Seldon]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

What wonderful divining rod you must possess! You, as Lord on High, have decreed that there is some sliver of difference between pro-abortion and pro-life! Do you fancy yourself as having been less trouble, or less life altering than any aborted baby today? Like everyone else alive today, you weren't. I agree that it may be a matter of choice, but when does the baby choose?
Regards,
CP

There are 400,000 to 500,000 kids in foster care in the US on any given day. How many more would like? Crime went down significantly after Roe was made law. How many more people would you like to be imprisoned? Your like couldn't give a crap about the baby. Abortion is between the mother, her family and her doctor. You needn't concern yourself. There are thousands of children that could use your help, hundreds of thousands more living at poverty levels. All you wish to do is increase those numbers.

 

[Scrabaholic]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

What wonderful divining rod you must possess! You, as Lord on High, have decreed that there is some sliver of difference between pro-abortion and pro-life! Do you fancy yourself as having been less trouble, or less life altering than any aborted baby today? Like everyone else alive today, you weren't. I agree that it may be a matter of choice, but when does the baby choose?
Regards,
CP

When it is capable of making and articulating a choice.

 

[Scrabaholic]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

I believe I mentioned earlier my respect for your view. If not, my error, I do so now.
I am uncomfortable with your malleable idea of a few weeks . Further, why can't the subject be considered without the input of the vessel(woman)? She isn't the one who will die. Society has interest in the successful delivery of children. You certainly know that.
Regards,
CP

The human race is hardly in danger of becoming extinct. Some would say that is unfortunate.

As to your comment about women - wow. Just wow.

 

[Scrabaholic]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Very few unwanted pregnancies are from birth control failure.

About half of abortions are.

 

[Scrabaholic]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

To deny that very simple existence to another is not mine, nor yours, to make.
Regards,
CP

You are right, because neither of you will ever be pregnant. However, it IS the woman's choice to make in regards to her own pregnancy.

 

[Scrabaholic]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

A less obvious answer could be when it's brain develops higher functions and pain, around 20 weeks,which is about where the current limitations are in most states that haven't passed ridiculous and unconstitutional restrictions. Anything past that is usually reserved for cases of rape or harm to the health of the mother.

They don't feel pain until the third trimester.

While the presence of thalamocortical fibers is necessary for pain perception, their mere presence is insufficient—this pathway must also be functional. It has been proposed that transient, functional thalamocortical circuits may form via subplate neurons around midgestation, but no human study has demonstrated this early functionality. Instead, constant SEPs appear at 29 weeks’ PCA, and EEG patterns denoting wakefulness appear around 30 weeks’ PCA. Both of these tests of cortical function suggest that conscious perception of pain does not begin before the third trimester. Cutaneous withdrawal reflexes and hormonal stress responses present earlier in development are not explicit or sufficient evidence of pain perception because they are not specific to noxious stimuli and are not cortically mediated.

Fetal Pain: A Systematic Multidisciplinary Review of the Evidence | Pain Medicine | JAMA | JAMA Network

 

[Scrabaholic]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

This is the second post you've mentioned it, so I just wanted to chime in and remind you that overpopulation is literally a myth and you should probably stop using that for any argument. In most developed countries, the population isn't even growing at sustainable rates anymore anyway. As in, our population will be decreasing, unless we get more immigrants.

No, it is not a myth. We are destroying out planet. Look at the crap we put into our environment. It's mostly first and second world countries doing that. Not third world, they are too poor to have things like cars etc.

Here's an idea - why not bring those people over here so they can have a better life and the population can be maintained?

 

[Lursa]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Very few unwanted pregnancies are from birth control failure.

Actually, 68 percent of women of childbearing years in the US use artificial birth control consistently.

Another 22 percent:

-- Cannot become become pregnant due to a medical condition or procedure. (infertile or have been diagnosed as such)
-- Or are currently pregnant and thus are not currently using birth control


That leaves 10 percent who do not use artificial birth control for whatever reason( some may be using the so called rhythm method. Or similar natural methods)


And now for the math:

--80-90% of American couples use birth control/have sex responsibly

--non-surgical birth control is only ~98% effective

--millions of Americans have sex millions and millions of times every day

--this means that there will still be 10s of thousands of accidental pregnancies every day.

 

[Lursa]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Leave Christians alone and in Peace.
Regards,
CP

When it comes to abortion, why doesnt that work in reverse? Why cant some Christians leave women alone that believe different than you do about abortion?

PRo-choice means Christians can act completely as they believe...have an abortion or not. Nothing is forced on you...how do you justify forcing your beliefs on others?

 

[Lursa]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Hence the great question when should said human being be afforded the right to life regardless their status in the womb of another human being.

When their (non-recognized) right to life can be protected without violating the rights, up to and including right to life, of the woman carrying them.

The unborn has no rights that can be separated from the mother (physically, legally, ethically, practically). It's a complete dependency that truly demonstrates that it is not equal.

They do not have a single right that they can exercise independently.​

When they achieve that status, then of course they should be equally protected. "Achieving that status" however, is not close to guaranteed:

2/3rds embryos don’t survive

Which fertilized eggs will become healthy human fetuses? Researchers predict with 93% accuracy -- ScienceDaily

Two-thirds of all human embryos fail to develop successfully. Now, in a new study, researchers have shown that they can predict with 93 percent certainty which fertilized eggs will make it to a critical developmental milestone and which will stall and die. The findings are important to the understanding of the fundamentals of human development at the earliest stages, which have largely remained a mystery despite the attention given to human embryonic stem cell research.

 

[Lursa]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

The obvious answer should be once they're no longer literally physically dependent on the mother, since then they should have their own autonomy. That would almost certainly be pretty close to the end of pregnancy.

A less obvious answer could be when it's brain develops higher functions and pain, around 20 weeks,which is about where the current limitations are in most states that haven't passed ridiculous and unconstitutional restrictions. Anything past that is usually reserved for cases of rape or harm to the health of the mother.

I also wrote something similar, post 196.

 

[Lursa]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Strange Pete, you don't seem to understand Human reproduction. No different than any other species, nature culls out females to be the carrier of the unborn. It isn't a burden, it is a gift. It is also curious that you write, we already overpopulate the planet. It isn't WE it. Is the third world with their social norms that are adding numbers. Not the U.S. Give them BC and a s good reason not to have more than their society can handle and the World overpopulation problem will disappear.
Regards,
CP

You used the word 'cull' improperly and it's ludicrous for you to assume all women consider a pregnancy or a child a 'gift.'

Arguments should be factual. If you offer an opinion, it should at least be supported by facts.

 

[Lursa]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

There are 400,000 to 500,000 kids in foster care in the US on any given day. How many more would like? Crime went down significantly after Roe was made law. How many more people would you like to be imprisoned? Your like couldn't give a crap about the baby. Abortion is between the mother, her family and her doctor. You needn't concern yourself. There are thousands of children that could use your help, hundreds of thousands more living at poverty levels. All you wish to do is increase those numbers.

And she has also been informed that over 100,000 of those kids are available for adoption. For each newborn added to that giant pool, it means another child waiting will not get a home...if even that newborn gets adopted. God forbid it's not perfect!

IMO it's unconscionable to encourage women to have a kid unnecessarily when there are 100,000 hoping and waiting for families. And their suffering is real, while the unborn are aware of nothing.

 

[Lursa]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

They don't feel pain until the third trimester.

And there's no pain anyway.

The 97.5% that occur early consist of a pea-sized or smaller unborn being flushed painlessly from the womb.

The rest, generally medically necessary, are by law given an anesthetic/lethal injection before removal.

The whole 'pain' thing was a very dishonest ploy by politicians to generate dissent and sympathy among those uneducated on the issue.