[W: 594] A great question for pro abortion types

[jaeger19]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

You sensitive wimps have YET to recognize that necessary abortions are a medical decision, made by a doctor (which obviously you aren't), in consultation with the parentS. It's the abortions on command that make murderers. No issue. None.

Actually.. that's the point..

YOU wimps.. are the ones that don't get that you cannot legislate that "necessary"... because you cannot DEFINE that.

 

[jaeger19]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Well, "True Conservatives " are certainly more logical than you "abortion anytime" types. And your projection that a "a doctor that aborts a fetus to save the mother is unethical" is just nonsense. Stop trying to take my position.

I am not an abortion "anytime" type.

Sorry mam..but you are the one making blanket statements about abortion being murder.. and "abortion is unethical"...

IF.. you don't want to be called out for making such blanket statements... then I suggest... THAT YOU STOP MAKING THEM!!!..

For example:

Possibly, but you are the first I've heard use that approach. It's a shame, but killing a child is murder, no matter the situation that got them there.

 

[jaeger19]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Well said.

Especially the last few paragraphs ( which I bolded ) where you point out that laws restricting choice cause more abortions to occur because women and doctors do not have the time for proper testing about possible health concerns.

The US has a lower abortion rate than Sweden , Denmark, Norway, France,or the United Kindom. We also have more weeks to conduct tests before the elective abortion cutoff.

Exactly... and then there are the social concerns as well.

For example.. my teenage son is dating now. He has a girlfriend. I get a bit concerned because her parents don't mind that they go into her bedroom at their house and close the door (now.. I get that they could go anywhere.. out to the public ground.. etc)…

It worries me because there is a culture around where I live that girls should get married and pregnant early (and not necessarily in that order).

So.. I have had to think what happens if my son gets this girl pregnant. Now.. what... if she wants an abortion? Now.. my wife and I talked and we would try to convince her that she could have the child and my wife and I would adopt it. I would prefer that over her aborting a healthy child. We could even go so far as to help her make sure she gets through school etc.. while she is pregnant.

The point is.. the girl would have options that she might not know about.. if she has to make a decision.. on the day she finds out she is pregnant, because she only has a few days before the cut off.. she is more likely to panic into having an abortion.

I want her to have time so that older, cooler heads could perhaps show her that there are other options than abortion.

These abortion laws are just moronic because they compress the time frame to a point where woman are more likely to have an abortion..then to see all their options.

 

[jaeger19]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Are you a doctor? Violate your oath much?

Yes...
Never.

Next? .

 

[jaeger19]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Nor for yours, other than "it's 'her' body", which is invalid. There is another "body" involved.

Exactly.. and what gives you the right to decide whats best for that other body.. that's INSIDE her?

 

[smallvoice]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Yes...
Never.

Next? .

Please let us know how to avoid your "practice".

 

[smallvoice]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

It shouldn't a novel approach. The problem is that many pro-lifers speak to "inconvenience" in a way that makes one think she just wants and abortion to keep her nail appointments up.

More often than not these women are barely making ends meet. They may work multiple jobs to barely make ends meet. Missing one day can be devastating, missing a week can be catastrophic. Lump this in with the likleyhood they are either uninsured or stuck with medicaid. If I was stuck being pregnant going to impersonal understaffed county clinics I would likely be either on dialysis or dead. I felt fine. If I was poor, feeling as good as I did.....I might have blown off my appointment (because I felt fine) just to grab another shift so I would not face homelessness.

Women make decisions to abort usually based on the sum total of their personal position. Poor with poor social resources? Poor access to decent medical care? Worried about your born children? Most women who have abortions already are struggling to care for a child at home.

So you think it's OK when in the situations you posit to go out and buy a Maserati instead of a Ford?

 

[year2late]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

So you think it's OK when in the situations you posit to go out and buy a Maserati instead of a Ford?

You are becoming unhinged.

What does a Maserti have to do with a woman that is afraid to become homeless or fears for the safety of her born children?

 

[Lursa]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Please let us know how to avoid your "practice".

It's as easy as you avoiding actually upholding any of your opinions on abortion.

It's a discussion forum...not a 'rant against things I cant explain' forum...which is what you do...emotionally blab all over the threads, but are incapable of articulating anything to support your 'feelings' that are not even based on facts.

 

[jaeger19]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

It's as easy as you avoiding actually upholding any of your opinions on abortion.

It's a discussion forum...not a 'rant against things I cant explain' forum...which is what you do...emotionally blab all over the threads, but are incapable of articulating anything to support your 'feelings' that are not even based on facts.

Well..I had a rebuttal to smallvoice.. but I think you summed it up pretty well.

That's whats maddening about these discussions.. you can argue that merits,, the ethics.. etc.. but at the end of the day... there are two lives involved here... and who gets to decide whats best for both? The parents...or the government.

Exceptions for "health of the mother".. okay... but there is a practicality of HOW DOES THE LAW DEFINE IT. How is a medical provider.. to know that they are not going to be sued..or worse.. "jailed for 99 years"... for performing an "unnecessary abortion".

You start asking these anti abortion types.. (and that's what they are.. because they are certainly not "pro LIFE")… any of these real life questions... and they clam up.

Because the vast majority of them don't want to face the reality that these laws would result in harm to women.. that women would die as a result.

 

[Gladiator]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

The question is-----------if the baby aborted is not human, why are organs being harvested from them. That doesnt seem to compute.

Any logical comments?

The implication of the post is that fetal organs are being used for replacement of organs in children or adults.

Fetal organs are being harvested for research and stem cell production for treating disease. The organs are not being removed and placed into other children.


"Fetal tissue has been used since the 1930s for vaccine development, and more recently to help advance stem cell research and treatments for degenerative diseases such as Parkinson's disease. Researchers typically take tissue samples from a fetus that has been aborted (under conditions permitted by law) and grow cells from the tissue in Petri dishes.

Many of the uses of fetal tissue -- and much of the debate -- are not new. "It's just that the public is finding out about it," said Insoo Hyun, associate professor of bioethics at Case Western Reserve University.

In addition, the ways that fetal tissue are allowed to be obtained and used are not new either, Hyun said. The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services released guidelines on the topic in the 1990s."


Fetal tissue: How it's used in medical research - CNN



//

 

[D_NATURED]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

A distinction without a difference.

She told you the difference three times. I think this is your lack of comprehension, not HER lack of articulation.

 

[Dragonlady]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

I'm pro-life but I don't think government is the solution to the problem of abortion. It seems that I'm more conservative than you on this point.

Even if you make abortion illegal, there are various ways for people to still get unsafe abortions. Even if you make various exceptions for rape or incest, some people may not be able to prove they were rape. They have to get government permission to have their abortion. Maybe they can't admit they were raped.

Government bureaucracy may not be the best way to handle such personal decisions.

Why not try to change people's minds about abortion rather than coerce them with government threats of prison?

Bingo!!!

If you don't believe in abortion, don't have one. No one in the world is "pro-abortion". But if you truly oppose abortion and think it's wrong, don't have an abortion. It's that simple. Your body, your choice.

Abortion has been with us since cave man days. Early humans knew which plants were aborificants and used them. If banned, abortion will not go away, it will go back underground, and it won't be done by doctors and nurses, it will be done by anyone who thinks they can make money off desperate women.

Most people forget the orphanages, "unwed mothers" homes, and the other horrors pre Roe v. Wade because most people alive today have never seen them.

 

[year2late]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Bingo!!!

If you don't believe in abortion, don't have one. No one in the world is "pro-abortion". But if you truly oppose abortion and think it's wrong, don't have an abortion. It's that simple. Your body, your choice.

Abortion has been with us since cave man days. Early humans knew which plants were aborificants and used them. If banned, abortion will not go away, it will go back underground, and it won't be done by doctors and nurses, it will be done by anyone who thinks they can make money off desperate women.

Most people forget the orphanages, "unwed mothers" homes, and the other horrors pre Roe v. Wade because most people alive today have never seen them.

I don’t know...Donald Trump was probably pro abortion when he tried to get Marla Maples to have an abortion.

 

[manofknowledge]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

The question is-----------if the baby aborted is not human, why are organs being harvested from them. That doesnt seem to compute.

Any logical comments?

A sperm cell is human. The unborn are part of the Mother.

 

[Dragonlady]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

and just when does the fetus (your description) become human?????

When it draws it's first breath.

Genesis 2:7

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

That pretty much puts to rest the idea that you're killing a "person" doesn't it.

In reading your posts, there is little that is "logical" about them. You make wild assumptions, and come to conclusions with absolutely no evidence to back up your assertions - like saying that fetal organs are harvested.

I'm going to take a crazy leap here and say that your user name is your idea of a joke, because there is no logic whatsoever in your reasoning. The Bible doesn't support your statements. The American Medical Association says that a fetus is not a baby. Science says that it's not a baby.

The harsh reality is that the anti-abortion movement hijacked the language of the abortion debate a long time ago because NOBODY SUPPORTED THEIR POSITION but loony people. So they hired a public relations firm to help them rebrand themselves to be more palatable to the American people. The first thing the PR firm did was to rebrand the anti-abortionists, as being "Pro-Life" because people want to be "for" something, not against it. Calling themselves anti-abortionists made people think they opposed personal freedom and individual responsibility. So the Anti-Abortion movement changed their name to the "Pro-Life Movement", even though they favoured the death penalty and the Viet Nam war. Then they changed "fetus", to "baby", because terminating a fetus didn't sound so bad, but KILLING BABIES is something a monster does.

He/She who controls language, controls the debate. The anti-abortionist have been really successful with their rebranding. It's nearly impossible to have a reasonable discussion of personal responsibility, women's rights or abortions without being labelled a "baby killer", a "murderer", or some other equally false and defamatory name.

And it became much darker. People started shooting abortion providers, attacking clinics, and harrassing their patients.

This is a debate too, about poverty, and about the lack of resources for pregnant women or their babies. This is where conservatives don't have a leg to stand on. Their concern for the children, ends at birth. The US has the highest rate of infant mortality in the first world. They don't care. Highest rate of maternal death in the first world. Conservatives don't care.

Conservative keep talking about women taking responsibility for their "actions". Well, if you don't have the resources to take time off work during your pregnancy or after confinement, having an abortion is taking responsibility, Conservatives don't care. All they care about is that you birth that baby.

 

[concernedpuma]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Well..I had a rebuttal to smallvoice.. but I think you summed it up pretty well.

That's whats maddening about these discussions.. you can argue that merits,, the ethics.. etc.. but at the end of the day... there are two lives involved here... and who gets to decide whats best for both? The parents...or the government.

Exceptions for "health of the mother".. okay... but there is a practicality of HOW DOES THE LAW DEFINE IT. How is a medical provider.. to know that they are not going to be sued..or worse.. "jailed for 99 years"... for performing an "unnecessary abortion".

You start asking these anti abortion types.. (and that's what they are.. because they are certainly not "pro LIFE")… any of these real life questions... and they clam up.

Because the vast majority of them don't want to face the reality that these laws would result in harm to women.. that women would die as a result.

I understand you calling out pro-lifers as anti-abortionist, fair enough. But, if we are going to strip away metaphors, then Pro-choice will have to live with their own pro-abortion moniker. Right?
Regards,
CP

 

[Dragonlady]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Nor for yours, other than "it's 'her' body", which is invalid. There is another "body" involved.

There is not another "body" involved. There is a mass of tissue called a "fetus", which, if allowed to grow, is forming another person, but no other "person" is involved.

A "person" is defined as a "human being". God did not consider Adam a "human being", until he "breathed life" into him. That is when the soul enters the body - with the first breathe.

Genesis 2:7: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Medical science does not call the "other" body a human being either. They call it a fetus, until it is born and draws breathe for itself. At that point it becomes a living, human being.

So yes, it is "her body" and only "her body". If she is gestating a fetus, whether that fetus becomes a human being is entirely her choice, and it is entirely her right to make that choice.

Throughout history, there have been times where it would imprudent to have a baby - wars, famines, plagues or during times of long migrations. Such hardships are difficult and many people might die. The odds of successfully carrying a child to term and delivering it are slim. The mother, the child, or both of them are at risk. At such times, women would not allow pregnancies to continue to support their other children and family, and enhance the chances of their survival.

One third of pregnancies end in miscarriage. If every fetus was so important and precious, why does that happen? If God thinks every zygote is a sacred gift, to be loved and cherished, why do women miscarry? When God created women, why did He give us an option on having a baby? He gave us the ability to terminate a pregancy, and you would take that away.

 

[concernedpuma]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

There is not another "body" involved. There is a mass of tissue called a "fetus", which, if allowed to grow, is forming another person, but no other "person" is involved.

A "person" is defined as a "human being". God did not consider Adam a "human being", until he "breathed life" into him. That is when the soul enters the body - with the first breathe.

Genesis 2:7: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Medical science does not call the "other" body a human being either. They call it a fetus, until it is born and draws breathe for itself. At that point it becomes a living, human being.

So yes, it is "her body" and only "her body". If she is gestating a fetus, whether that fetus becomes a human being is entirely her choice, and it is entirely her right to make that choice.

Throughout history, there have been times where it would imprudent to have a baby - wars, famines, plagues or during times of long migrations. Such hardships are difficult and many people might die. The odds of successfully carrying a child to term and delivering it are slim. The mother, the child, or both of them are at risk. At such times, women would not allow pregnancies to continue to support their other children and family, and enhance the chances of their survival.

One third of pregnancies end in miscarriage. If every fetus was so important and precious, why does that happen? If God thinks every zygote is a sacred gift, to be loved and cherished, why do women miscarry? When God created women, why did He give us an option on having a baby? He gave us the ability to terminate a pregancy, and you would take that away.

I have properly schooled by Minnie and others here that make a sound argument for necessary abortion, but I do so object when one who opposes abortion, whatever their reason, is asked to explain the movements of God as you did here...
One third of pregnancies end in miscarriage. If every fetus was so important and precious, why does that happen? If God thinks every zygote is a sacred gift, to be loved and cherished, why do women miscarry? When God created women, why did He give us an option on having a baby? He gave us the ability to terminate a pregancy, and you would take that away.
That is an unfair, below the belt blow challenge. I know of no one who will say they know the will of God. Most rebuttals from the Christian Right are based on their own Biblical interpretations, to which they are entitled, rather than professing a full knowledge of His will. That will be known to all of us some day.
Regards,
CP

 

[nekrodev]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

I understand you calling out pro-lifers as anti-abortionist, fair enough. But, if we are going to strip away metaphors, then Pro-choice will have to live with their own pro-abortion moniker. Right?
Regards,
CP

No. Anti-abortion people don't get to be called pro-life because they don't care at all about "life" - if anything, they're just "pro-birth". The people who are the the most vocal against abortion also don't support healthcare for people, aren't adopting children, aren't okay with things like Planned Parenthood or contraception, etc...

Meanwhile, pro-choice people literally only want a woman to be able to have the option, the choice, if needed.

 

[concernedpuma]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

No. Anti-abortion people don't get to be called pro-life because they don't care at all about "life" - if anything, they're just "pro-birth". The people who are the the most vocal against abortion also don't support healthcare for people, aren't adopting children, aren't okay with things like Planned Parenthood or contraception, etc...

Meanwhile, pro-choice people literally only want a woman to be able to have the option, the choice, if needed.

I must disagree. I understand the necessity of some abortion, but your generous, though somewhat illogical, twisting of phrase seems to be the definition of your own design.
Regards,
CP

 

[nekrodev]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

I must disagree. I understand the necessity of some abortion, but your generous, though somewhat illogical, twisting of phrase seems to be the definition of your own design.
Regards,
CP

Life =/= birth, which is the only thing abortion is relevant to. Call me when the the anti-abortion activists are protesting outside insurance companies for cancer patients, who they wouldn't approve treatment for, or protesting outside the concentration camps where innocent children are dying because our border patrol isn't providing them the necessities to live. Anti-abortion activists don't give any ****s about "life", they only care about babies being born. After that, **** them, **** their mom, and especially **** them if they aren't white or rich.

 

[concernedpuma]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Life =/= birth, which is the only thing abortion is relevant to. Call me when the the anti-abortion activists are protesting outside insurance companies for cancer patients, who they wouldn't approve treatment for, or protesting outside the concentration camps where innocent children are dying because our border patrol isn't providing them the necessities to live. Anti-abortion activists don't give any ****s about "life", they only care about babies being born. After that, **** them, **** their mom, and especially **** them if they aren't white or rich.

I feel a certain pity when I read post like yours. Your jaded, calloused, and misdirected energy is a terrible waste. You write from what you have learned, but unfortunately, not from your own heart/mind. Most here have a good education, and by good I mean an educational system that allowed for individual reasoning. You write as an apostate, not an individualist.
Regards,
CP

 

[nekrodev]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

I feel a certain pity when I read post like yours. Your jaded, calloused, and misdirected energy is a terrible waste. You write from what you have learned, but unfortunately, not from your own heart/mind. Most here have a good education, and by good I mean an educational system that allowed for individual reasoning. You write as an apostate, not an individualist.
Regards,
CP

I write as someone who can see what's going on in the world around him, and doesn't ignore it or try to reinterpret it through some lens of "greater meaning". Most people are stupid and uncaring, that's just how the world works.

You have literally no argument against what I've said, so you just try to insult me instead. Typical.

 

[jghiretire]

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

If she decided she didnt want a baby why didnt her and her pardner be responsible and have safe sex???? Killing a baby is murder and for the reason she and her pardner were not responsible???????????

Over and over again this same question is asked - and answered. If you don't like the answer, I suggest you do your own research. If you don't want an abortion?? Don't have one. Oh wait - you're a guy. You will never ever ever ever ever have to worry about one. So what's your point??