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[W:3596] Arguments Against Same-Sex Marriage

Scientific and Cultural Arguments AGAINST MARRIAGE
(and therefore against both opposite-sex and same-sex marriage)


for Tanngrisnir



monogamy → the need for paternal care
marriage → monogamy
but -the need for paternal care
therefore, -monogamy
therefore, -marriage

monogamy→sexual dimorphism
marriage → monogamy
but -sexual dimorphism
therefore, -monogamy
therefore, -marriage

monogamy→sexual division of labor
marriage → monogamy
but -sexual division of labor
therefore, -monogamy
therefore, -marriage




Denial isn't a river in Egypt.

There hasn't even been an irrational one posted

Damn. 275 pages and still not one rational argument against SSM.

Has there ever been a bigger fail thread?

277 pages and still not a single rational argument against SSM.

Sadfun.
 
Your argument is illogical because you are trying to connect wildly different ideas. Correlation does not prove causation.

The use of birth control inhibits procreation. Marriage itself doesn't change the fact.

You have argued that LGBT marriage was not permitted in Rome and was banned by the Christian church. You also claimed that marriage was created to raise kids, and now you are trying to claim that marriage limits procreation, but none of those ideas have anything to do with the other. I've seen better arguments in word salad. It's almost as if you are trolling.

Then you also try to claim that you support gay marriage with this reply. Is this claim also a cover for the idea that you support the idea of incest marriage, or am I not supposed to notice that?

I can quote 20th centur court cases that prove my point and refute yours. All you have is emotion and hormones.

"Heterosexual couples are the only couples who can produce biological offspring of the couple."
Washington State Courts - Error

"We are dealing here with legislation which involves one of the basic civil rights of man. Marriage and procreation are fundamental to the very existence and survival of the race".
SKINNER v. STATE OF OKL. EX REL. WILLIAMSON | FindLaw

"The institution of marriage as a union man and woman, uniquely involving the procreation and rearing of children within a family, is as old as the book of Genesis...

Marriage and procreation are fundamental to the very existence and survival of the race." This historic institution manifestly is more deeply founded than the asserted contemporary concept of marriage and societal interests for which petitioners contend. The due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment is not a charter for restructuring it by judicial legislation"
http://www.cas.umt.edu/phil/faculty/Walton/bakrvnel.htm

i]t is not surprising that the decision to marry has been placed on the same level of importance as decisions relating to procreation, childbirth, child rearing, and family relationships. . . .

It would make little sense to recognize a right of privacy with respect to other matters of family life and not with respect to the decision to enter the relationship that is the foundation of the family in our society.
ZABLOCKI v. REDHAIL | FindLaw

Under this standard, DOMA is constitutional because the legislature was entitled to believe that limiting marriage to opposite-sex couples furthers procreation, essential to survival of the human race, and furthers the well-being of children by encouraging families where children are reared in homes headed by the children’s biological parents. Allowing same-sex couples to marry does not, in the legislature’s view, further these purposes.....

Nearly all United States Supreme Court decisions declaring marriage to be a fundamental right expressly link marriage to fundamental rights of procreation, childbirth, abortion, and child-rearing....

But as Skinner, Loving, and Zablocki indicate, marriage is traditionally linked to procreation and survival of the human race. Heterosexual couples are the only couples who can produce biological offspring of the couple....

And the link between opposite-sex marriage and procreation is not defeated by the fact that the law allows opposite-sex marriage regardless of a couple’s willingness or ability to procreate. The facts that all opposite-sex couples do not have children and that single-sex couples raise children and have children with third party assistance or through adoption do not mean that limiting marriage to opposite-sex couples lacks a rational basis. Such over- or under-inclusiveness does not defeat finding a rational basis....
Washington State Courts - Error

Petitioners note that the state does not impose upon heterosexual married couples a condition that they have a proved capacity or declared willingness to procreate, posing a rhetorical demand that this court must read such condition into the statute if same-sex marriages are to be prohibited. Even assuming that such a condition would be neither unrealistic nor offensive under the Griswold rationale, the classification is no more than theoretically imperfect. We are reminded, however, that "abstract symmetry" is not demanded by the Fourteenth Amendment.
http://www.cas.umt.edu/phil/faculty/Walton/bakrvnel.htm
 
I can quote 20th century court cases that prove my point and refute yours. All you have is emotion and hormones.

"Heterosexual couples are the only couples who can produce biological offspring of the couple."
Washington State Courts - Error

"We are dealing here with legislation which involves one of the basic civil rights of man. Marriage and procreation are fundamental to the very existence and survival of the race".
SKINNER v. STATE OF OKL. EX REL. WILLIAMSON | FindLaw

"The institution of marriage as a union man and woman, uniquely involving the procreation and rearing of children within a family, is as old as the book of Genesis...

Marriage and procreation are fundamental to the very existence and survival of the race." This historic institution manifestly is more deeply founded than the asserted contemporary concept of marriage and societal interests for which petitioners contend. The due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment is not a charter for restructuring it by judicial legislation"
http://www.cas.umt.edu/phil/faculty/Walton/bakrvnel.htm

i]t is not surprising that the decision to marry has been placed on the same level of importance as decisions relating to procreation, childbirth, child rearing, and family relationships. . . .

It would make little sense to recognize a right of privacy with respect to other matters of family life and not with respect to the decision to enter the relationship that is the foundation of the family in our society.
ZABLOCKI v. REDHAIL | FindLaw

Under this standard, DOMA is constitutional because the legislature was entitled to believe that limiting marriage to opposite-sex couples furthers procreation, essential to survival of the human race, and furthers the well-being of children by encouraging families where children are reared in homes headed by the children’s biological parents. Allowing same-sex couples to marry does not, in the legislature’s view, further these purposes.....

Nearly all United States Supreme Court decisions declaring marriage to be a fundamental right expressly link marriage to fundamental rights of procreation, childbirth, abortion, and child-rearing....

But as Skinner, Loving, and Zablocki indicate, marriage is traditionally linked to procreation and survival of the human race. Heterosexual couples are the only couples who can produce biological offspring of the couple....

And the link between opposite-sex marriage and procreation is not defeated by the fact that the law allows opposite-sex marriage regardless of a couple’s willingness or ability to procreate. The facts that all opposite-sex couples do not have children and that single-sex couples raise children and have children with third party assistance or through adoption do not mean that limiting marriage to opposite-sex couples lacks a rational basis. Such over- or under-inclusiveness does not defeat finding a rational basis....
Washington State Courts - Error

Petitioners note that the state does not impose upon heterosexual married couples a condition that they have a proved capacity or declared willingness to procreate, posing a rhetorical demand that this court must read such condition into the statute if same-sex marriages are to be prohibited. Even assuming that such a condition would be neither unrealistic nor offensive under the Griswold rationale, the classification is no more than theoretically imperfect. We are reminded, however, that "abstract symmetry" is not demanded by the Fourteenth Amendment.
http://www.cas.umt.edu/phil/faculty/Walton/bakrvnel.htm

You are arguing in circles because you do it and then deny that you do it or the reasons why.

I'm done wasting my times because I could be just as productive teaching my cat to crochet. He'd love to have the chance to play with a ball of yarn.
 
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Scientific and Cultural Arguments AGAINST MARRIAGE
(and therefore against both opposite-sex and same-sex marriage)


for Tanngrisnir



monogamy → the need for paternal care
marriage → monogamy
but -the need for paternal care
therefore, -monogamy
therefore, -marriage

monogamy→sexual dimorphism
marriage → monogamy
but -sexual dimorphism
therefore, -monogamy
therefore, -marriage

monogamy→sexual division of labor
marriage → monogamy
but -sexual division of labor
therefore, -monogamy
therefore, -marriage

Ojk we have your personal opinions will you back them up with anything?
 
Ojk we have your personal opinions will you back them up with anything?
Point to a personal opinion in that argument and show that you understand what you're pointing to, and then show that your verdict that it is a personal opinion is not simply your personal opinion. Or withdraw from the field.
 
Point to a personal opinion in that argument and show that you understand what you're pointing to, and then show that your verdict that it is a personal opinion is not simply your personal opinion. Or withdraw from the field.

So as usual you wont back up your BS.
Ill dismiss it as the illogical nonsense that it is.
 
Scientific and Cultural Arguments AGAINST MARRIAGE
(and therefore against both opposite-sex and same-sex marriage)


for Tanngrisnir



monogamy → the need for paternal care
marriage → monogamy
but -the need for paternal care
therefore, -monogamy
therefore, -marriage

monogamy→sexual dimorphism
marriage → monogamy
but -sexual dimorphism
therefore, -monogamy
therefore, -marriage

monogamy→sexual division of labor
marriage → monogamy
but -sexual division of labor
therefore, -monogamy
therefore, -marriage

Ojk we have your personal opinions will you back them up with anything?

Point to a personal opinion in that argument and show that you understand what you're pointing to, and then show that your verdict that it is a personal opinion is not simply your personal opinion. Or withdraw from the field.

So as usual you wont back up your BS.
Ill dismiss it as the illogical nonsense that it is.

Point to a personal opinion in that argument and show that you understand what you're pointing to, and then show that your verdict that it is a personal opinion is not simply your personal opinion. Or withdraw from the field.
 
Point to a personal opinion in that argument and show that you understand what you're pointing to, and then show that your verdict that it is a personal opinion is not simply your personal opinion. Or withdraw from the field.

Whiskey.............Tango...............Foxtrot!

and then show that your verdict that it is a personal opinion is not simply your personal opinion.

Say wha......... :facepalm:
 
I don't know if I've already replied here but I'll list them in case I haven't.

It requires a new definition of marriage

So what? Some cultures practice polygamy which is not legal here.

Not the same as laws that prohibited mixed race marriages

For anyone using this argument, how is it different. In both cases, the government is infringing on the right to marry.

Marriage is meant to increase population

If I look it up on google, it says:
Marriage comes from Middle English which was first seen in 1250-1300 CE. ... The main goal of marriage, earlier on, was to act as an alliance between families. Throughout history, and even today, families arranged marriages for couples. Most couples didn't marry because they were in love, but for economic liaisons

In other words, the original purpose of marriage was for political reasons. If we're talking about monogamy itself, that was really to solidify who your partner was. If marriage was to procreate, why are there straight couples who don't have any kids?

Infringes upon some peoples' religion freedom

Who's freedom does it infringe upon exactly and in what way?

Rights are granted by God and He doesn't like gay marriage / Morality comes from God and He doesn't like the gays

I decided to merge those two together because they're similar. If you ever make either of those two arguments, go read the first amendment.

Acceptance of gay marriage will lead to incest and paedophilia

Any proof that it will lead to child marriage and the abolition of the age of consent? It hasn't happened so far in the countries that recognized gay amrriage.

Homosexuals are unhealthy – that whole AIDS thing, you know.

This is probably the only good argument against gay marriage. Of course, that's assuming that not recognizing gay marriage will lead to less HIV transmission. Also, lesbians are less likely to transmit the disease than straight women so it only works for male gay marriage.

Allowing gay marriage will cause societal collapse, as other immoral behavior becomes more accepted.

This is a super wild claim without any remote evidence to back it up.
 
It means: Put up or shut up. Show us your criticism had merit.

No show us your nonsense has merit.
Stop trying to reverse the proof
 
No show us your nonsense has merit.
Stop trying to reverse the proof
Sorry, Charlie. You're not getting away with your usual bluff and bluster anymore. Not with me you're not.

You call the argument "personal opinion." You call it "nonsense." I doubt you can even read a line of the argument with understanding, but let's give you the benefit of the doubt.

So show us you understand a line of the argument by pointing out a line that is "nonsense" or a line that represents "personal opinion" in a way that shows you know what the line means -- just one line of "personal opinion" or "nonsense" -- or else take your bluff and bluster elsewhere.
 
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Sorry, Charlie. You're not getting away with your usual bluff and bluster anymore. Not with me you're not.

You call the argument "personal opinion." You call it "nonsense." I doubt you can even read a line of the argument with understanding, but let's give you the benefit of the doubt.

So show us you understand a line of the argument by pointing out a line that is "nonsense" or a line that represents "personal opinion" in a way that shows you know what the line means -- just one line of "personal opinion" or "nonsense" -- or else take your bluff and bluster elsewhere.

Sorry buster you are not getting away with your attempt at reversing the burden of proof
Back up your nonsense or stop posting it but dont ever expect me to have to disprove what you refuse to prove
 
Sorry buster you are not getting away with your attempt at reversing the burden of proof
Back up your nonsense or stop posting it but dont ever expect me to have to disprove what you refuse to prove

You ask the impossible of the incapable, I fear.
 
Sorry buster you are not getting away with your attempt at reversing the burden of proof
Back up your nonsense or stop posting it but dont ever expect me to have to disprove what you refuse to prove
Sorry, tough guy. Either you point to what you criticize in the argument, or get lost.
My suspicion, which your inability to be specific in your criticism bears out, is that you are unable even to read the argument with understanding.
Put up or shut up.
 
Sorry, tough guy. Either you point to what you criticize in the argument, or get lost.
My suspicion, which your inability to be specific in your criticism bears out, is that you are unable even to read the argument with understanding.
Put up or shut up.
yeah right as if you have no clue what I am asking you to prove but lets try again so everyone can see how dishonest you are when you continue to refuse.
monogamy → the need for paternal care
marriage → monogamy
but -the need for paternal care
therefore, -monogamy
therefore, -marriage

monogamy→sexual dimorphism
marriage → monogamy
but -sexual dimorphism
therefore, -monogamy
therefore, -marriage

monogamy→sexual division of labor
marriage → monogamy
but -sexual division of labor
therefore, -monogamy
therefore, -marriage
I am asking you to prove all of the above, feel free to start with the first line
monogamy → the need for paternal care

I eagerly await you diversion as we all know you wont even try
Now put up or shut up! (we all know you will do neither but its worth a try)
 
You are arguing in circles because you do it and then deny that you do it or the reasons why.

I'm done wasting my times because I could be just as productive teaching my cat to crochet. He'd love to have the chance to play with a ball of yarn.

What circles. I am demonstrating that legal marriage had everything to do with procreation
 
Only irrational, bigoted, hateful empty arguments made by people that are not gay.

Sent from my SM-S327VL using Tapatalk

Revealing that you view extending marriage to any two consenting adults to be hateful and bigoted towards gays.
 
yeah right as if you have no clue what I am asking you to prove but lets try again so everyone can see how dishonest you are when you continue to refuse.

I am asking you to prove all of the above, feel free to start with the first line
monogamy → the need for paternal care

I eagerly await you diversion as we all know you wont even try
Now put up or shut up! (we all know you will do neither but its worth a try)

Your initial criticism was that the argument was based on "personal opinion."
See here:
Ojk we have your personal opinions will you back them up with anything?

The line you've singled out from the argument -- "monogamy → the need for paternal care" -- is not a personal opinion, however.
Rather, it expresses one of the classic hypotheses of evolutionary science.
See here:

Why Monogamy? A Review of Potential Ultimate Drivers
Frontiers | Why Monogamy? A Review of Potential Ultimate Drivers | Ecology and Evolution

Monogamy, Parental Care, & Reproductive Decisions
Monogamy, Parental Care, & Reproductive Decisions

Adaptive Value of Monogamy
Adaptive Value of Monogamy

Paternal Care and litter size coevolution in mammals
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/abs/10.1098/rspb.2016.0140

Monogamy May Have Evolved to Prevent Infanticide
Monogamy May Have Evolved to Prevent Infanticide | Science | AAAS

Monogamy with a purpose
https://www.pnas.org/content/110/38/15167

Good dad, bad dad: the evolution of parental care in monogamous mice
https://www.hfsp.org/hfsp-news-events/good-dad-bad-dad-evolution-parental-care-monogamous-mice

The evolution of monogamy: Mating relationships, parental care and sexual selection
https://www.researchgate.net/public...ationships_parental_care_and_sexual_selection

Paternal care
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternal_care

The mystery of monogamy: scientists claim to have the answer
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/jul/29/mystery-of-monogamy-scientists-report

For males, monogamy can have evolutionary benefits
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...e-evolutionary-benefits-idUSBRE96S0XE20130729
 
What circles. I am demonstrating that legal marriage had everything to do with procreation

This is an idea that you have created. Procreation and marriage are not connected. You don't need to be married to procreate and you are not forced to marry if you procreate outside of marriage. Being married does not require anyone to procreate or is limited to those who wish or biologically are able to procreate.
 
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