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[W:3596] Arguments Against Same-Sex Marriage

Yes you have made that statement repeatedly.
Note the term statement. You have not made an argument. .

Actually Ive made the argument repeatedly. ANY distinction in the law must at a minimum be rationally related to serving some legitimate governmental interest. The distiction that prohibits closely related couples from marrying has no such relation.
 
Actually Ive made the argument repeatedly.

nope you havent made any actual argument yet

ANY distinction in the law must at a minimum be rationally related to serving some legitimate governmental interest. The distiction that prohibits closely related couples from marrying has no such relation.
1. Bolded claim is false
2. It has no bearing on your STATEMENT as regards to making an argument against SSM
 
nope you havent made any actual argument yet
1. Bolded claim is false

Its standard equal protection law.


In U.S. constitutional law, rational basis review is the normal standard of review that courts apply when considering constitutional questions, including due process or equal protection questions under the Fifth Amendment or Fourteenth Amendment. Courts applying rational basis review seek to determine whether a law is "rationally related" to a "legitimate" government interest, whether real or hypothetical.[1]
Rational basis review - Wikipedia
 
Its standard equal protection law.


In U.S. constitutional law, rational basis review is the normal standard of review that courts apply when considering constitutional questions, including due process or equal protection questions under the Fifth Amendment or Fourteenth Amendment. Courts applying rational basis review seek to determine whether a law is "rationally related" to a "legitimate" government interest, whether real or hypothetical.[1]
Rational basis review - Wikipedia


United States Supreme Court jurisprudence, the nature of the interest at issue determines the level of scrutiny applied by appellate courts. When courts engage in rational basis review, only the most egregious enactments, those not rationally related to a legitimate government interest, are overturned.[2
Rational basis review - Wikipedia

And it still has no bearing on your STATEMENT as regards to making an argument against SSM
Now are you going to make an argument or continue to flail around with utter nonsense?

I suspect the latter as you keep repeating your NON argument as if somehow it will magically become one and somehow it will be against SSM
Hint it wont
 
Rational basis review - Wikipedia

And it still has no bearing on your STATEMENT as regards to making an argument against SSM

Of course it does. Same sex marriage excludes closely related couples. And just a moment ago you argued it was false, and now you are retreating to the arguement that it has no bearing. Pick your BS and stick with it. Gives an appearance of having SOME credibility.
 
Of course it does. Same sex marriage excludes closely related couples. And just a moment ago you argued it was false, and now you are retreating to the arguement that it has no bearing. Pick your BS and stick with it. Gives an appearance of having SOME credibility.

Well you have picked your BS which isnt an argument let alone one against SSM and you are sticking with it come He double hickey sticks or high water.
What you havent done or even come close to doing is make an actual argument against SSM
I think its fairly obvious to all you dont have one and thus you will continue to spew utter nonsense in the vain hope that reality will change and someone how STATEMENT that is PRO incest will transform into an ANTI SSM ARGUMENT.

You are deluded if you think that will every happen, but I wish you and your brother/wife all the happiness in the world
 
Well you have picked your BS which isnt an argument let alone one against SSM and you are sticking with it come He double hickey sticks or high water.
What you havent done or even come close to doing is make an actual argument against SSM
I think its fairly obvious to all you dont have one and thus you will continue to spew utter nonsense in the vain hope that reality will change and someone how STATEMENT that is PRO incest will transform into an ANTI SSM ARGUMENT.

You are deluded if you think that will every happen, but I wish you and your brother/wife all the happiness in the world

I never made any indication one way or another as to whether it would ever happen. This new SSM is all about helping homosexuals feel better about themselves. Allowing just any two consenting adults to marry would lessen that effect for the gays. So we will likely continue this charade, that marriage has nothing to do with procreation so excluding homosexuals is unconstitutional, but we cant let two elderly sisters marry because they might procreate with unpleasant genetic effects. Tortuous twisting of the facts and law are common with a "living Constitution" to reach the desired outcome.
 
Sounds like you agree with me but really dont like to admit it.
I think we hold the same or similar position, although sometimes you seem to be against SSM and are trying to argue against it from a position of absurdity. What we are disagreeing on is the basis by which our position holds true, which can be as important as the position itself.

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I am right here making the argument. Same sex marriage excludes closely related couples without any rational justification and therefore unconstitutional.
The ridiculousness of this argument is that opposite sex marriage excludes closely related couples without any rational justification as well, and is also therefore unconstitutional. The argument needs to be that marriage period is excluding certain groups of consenting adults unconstitutionally.

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non sequiter
It might not be if he would actually present an argument rather than a statement.

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The ridiculousness of this argument is that opposite sex marriage excludes closely related couples without any rational justification as well,

Nope. Dawn of civilization marriage thru the 20th century, limited to men and women because only men and women procreate, the exclusion of closely related people is perfectly constituional. From BC Roman law

"matrimonium was then an institution involving a mother, mater. The idea implicit in the word is that a man took a woman in marriage, in matrimonium ducere, so that he might have children by her."

Mater semper certa est ("The mother is always certain")
"pater semper incertus est" ("The father is always uncertain")
"pater est, quem nuptiae demonstrant" ("father is to whom marriage points")....

to 20th century marriage

Sec. 160.204. PRESUMPTION OF PATERNITY. (a) A man is presumed to be the father of a child if:

(1) he is married to the mother of the child and the child is born during the marriage;

Perfectly rational to exclude the closely related. But youve adopted the charade as your reality. That marriage never had anything to do with procreation and this 1000s of years old limitation to men and women was all nothing but a nefarious plot to exclude the homosexuals, motivated by animus towards homosexuals.
 
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It might not be if he would actually present an argument rather than a statement.

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So is it your belief that he doesn't actually know what an argument is?
 
Nope. Dawn of civilization marriage thru the 20th century, limited to men and women because only men and women procreate, the exclusion of closely related people is perfectly constituional. From BC Roman law

"matrimonium was then an institution involving a mother, mater. The idea implicit in the word is that a man took a woman in marriage, in matrimonium ducere, so that he might have children by her."

Mater semper certa est ("The mother is always certain")
"pater semper incertus est" ("The father is always uncertain")
"pater est, quem nuptiae demonstrant" ("father is to whom marriage points")....

to 20th century marriage

Sec. 160.204. PRESUMPTION OF PATERNITY. (a) A man is presumed to be the father of a child if:

(1) he is married to the mother of the child and the child is born during the marriage;

Perfectly rational to exclude the closely related. But youve adopted the charade as your reality. That marriage never had anything to do with procreation and this 1000s of years old limitation to men and women was all nothing but a nefarious plot to exclude the homosexuals, motivated by animus towards homosexuals.

Bolded has already been proven false you can no longer claim ignorance on this you are in fact spreading a known falsehood


Dishonesty is not an argument any more than your pro incest statements
 
In 237 pages there hasn't been a legitimate argument against same-sex marriage.

Heck Dixon hasn't even made an illegitimate argument Apparently he has no clue what an argument actually is
 
I never made any indication one way or another as to whether it would ever happen. This new SSM is all about helping homosexuals feel better about themselves. Allowing just any two consenting adults to marry would lessen that effect for the gays. So we will likely continue this charade, that marriage has nothing to do with procreation so excluding homosexuals is unconstitutional, but we cant let two elderly sisters marry because they might procreate with unpleasant genetic effects. Tortuous twisting of the facts and law are common with a "living Constitution" to reach the desired outcome.

Total nonsense
 
So is it your belief that he doesn't actually know what an argument is?
I'll just leave it as a claim that he has rarely been presenting an argument, reason unknown. The only one he has presented, the "mater" origin of word, the "Dawn of civilization to 20th century" one, etc, have been debunked with no further rebuttals than "uh uh!"

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Nope. Dawn of civilization marriage thru the 20th century, limited to men and women because only men and women procreate, the exclusion of closely related people is perfectly constituional. From BC Roman law

Aside from the fact that this has been proven wrong repeatedly, ancient law does not form the basis of modern US law. While that is not to say that ancient laws, religious laws, and foreign laws do not influence what we pass, those things are not our basis of law, nor do they form the foundation of whether or not something is constitutional or not. The Constitution does that. And even that does not in and of itself guarantee that rights will not be violated, as examples by Prohibition. It has also been further pointed out that, based upon how legal marriage is structured in the US, (not social, not religious), that it is more constitutional to ban procreation between closely related people, than it is to deny them the legal institution of marriage.

"matrimonium was then an institution involving a mother, mater. The idea implicit in the word is that a man took a woman in marriage, in matrimonium ducere, so that he might have children by her."

Another point on which you have been balked. For that basis to be legitimate on the institution, the basis for the word in all languages would be based on "mother", which it clearly isn't. I provided the link that shows both matrimony and marriage in almost all languages and it shows clearly that "mater" is not the basis of all those words. Unless you can show where those words are derived from the use of the other languages' basis of "mother", your argument fails. Additionally, while it was assumed that children would occur by most male/female marriages, those offspring were not initially the basis of marriage. Marriage was about power, wealth and/or alliance. Only recently, in the historical context) has marriage been about love and not these things.

Mater semper certa est ("The mother is always certain")
"pater semper incertus est" ("The father is always uncertain")
"pater est, quem nuptiae demonstrant" ("father is to whom marriage points")....

This only point out probability, alongside a willing blindness to affairs.

to 20th century marriage

Sec. 160.204. PRESUMPTION OF PATERNITY. (a) A man is presumed to be the father of a child if:

(1) he is married to the mother of the child and the child is born during the marriage;

Again, assumption of a father is not automatically a correct assumption. By this a woman can get pregnant by her first husband, divorced or widowed before birth, married shortly after that (again before) birth, and then a man obviously not the father, legally becomes the father. Furthermore, especially since marriage is not required of procreation, presumption of paternity has no bearing on the legal institution of marriage. If anything, it is the others way around. Indeed the presumption is based upon the marriage, not marriage based upon possible or potential paternity.

Perfectly rational to exclude the closely related. But youve adopted the charade as your reality. That marriage never had anything to do with procreation and this 1000s of years old limitation to men and women was all nothing but a nefarious plot to exclude the homosexuals, motivated by animus towards homosexuals.

About as much a "nefarious plot" against homosexuals as there were nefarious plots on excluding left handed people. I really doubt that anyone on either side has assumed any plot in the natural human tendency to exclude the different. It's a commonly repeated theme. Any limitations have been about control the fears of those in control, as demonstrated by the marriages that were other than the common. Historically speaking, more marriages were simply a declaration of a couple that they were now married, either by their choice, or by arrangement by their parents. Marriage has had a broad variety of definition of participants and the results of it. There is no one historical absolute. Which brings us back to simply what is law, with regards to the legal recognition of a marriage? And in the US under the Constitution, and by the simple fact that no legal marriage requires love, sex or children, limiting marriage such that any given adult pair cannot obtain that legal standing, is unconstitutional.

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I'll just leave it as a claim that he has rarely been presenting an argument, reason unknown. The only one he has presented, the "mater" origin of word, the "Dawn of civilization to 20th century" one, etc, have been debunked with no further rebuttals than "uh uh!"

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he has admitted the "mater" is irrelevant so no need to comment. Dawn of civilization was proven false even by his own links
His claims of incestuous marriage being illegal is what he and I are really discussion but he refuses to make any argument based on that. Not that it matters as it is a PRO incestuous marriage statement not ANTI SSM
 
he has admitted the "mater" is irrelevant so no need to comment. Dawn of civilization was proven false even by his own links

And yet he makes the claim again just recently in a response to me.

His claims of incestuous marriage being illegal is what he and I are really discussion but he refuses to make any argument based on that. Not that it matters as it is a PRO incestuous marriage statement not ANTI SSM

I think he's trying to make an argument from absurdity. It's frustrating because while I agree with his conclusion, actual or not, his basis or logic line is flawed. It's like when Obama got the Nobel. I agreed with many that he didn't deserve it, but had to argue against their that the reason was his time in office or lack thereof.

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And yet he makes the claim again just recently in a response to me.



I think he's trying to make an argument from absurdity. It's frustrating because while I agree with his conclusion, actual or not, his basis or logic line is flawed. It's like when Obama got the Nobel. I agreed with many that he didn't deserve it, but had to argue against their that the reason was his time in office or lack thereof.

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The point is he is not making any argument at all
 
Heck Dixon hasn't even made an illegitimate argument Apparently he has no clue what an argument actually is

Same sex marriage excludes closely related people with no rational justification for doing so making it unconstitutional discrimination. A legitimate arguement the peanut gallery cant even begin to address.
 
Same sex marriage excludes closely related people with no rational justification for doing so making it unconstitutional discrimination. A legitimate arguement the peanut gallery cant even begin to address.

Still not an argument let alone one against SSM. However it is a good starting point to begin an argument FOR incestuous marriage
 
Still not an argument let alone one against SSM. However it is a good starting point to begin an argument FOR incestuous marriage

I prefer the term closely related as incestuous implies a sexual relationship. 49 states make that a crime and would continue to do so even with marriage extended to the closely related. Coincidently, Rhode Island who doesnt prohibit a father banging his daughter soon as she comes of age, did go to the effort to ban and criminalize same sex marriages between closely related people when they legalized gay marriage, as their marriage laws in place prior only banned closely related marriages to the opposite sex.
 
I prefer the term closely related as incestuous implies a sexual relationship. 49 states make that a crime and would continue to do so even with marriage extended to the closely related. Coincidently, Rhode Island who doesnt prohibit a father banging his daughter soon as she comes of age, did go to the effort to ban and criminalize same sex marriages between closely related people when they legalized gay marriage, as their marriage laws in place prior only banned closely related marriages to the opposite sex.
Link or other supporting evidence, please.

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