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[W: 344][W:64]Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

Not your standards? God does not have "Sunday Christians". His property is always to have mercy, not to make his children second class citizens.

So, you are upset with me because you think I mock people. Are you also upset that they mock me or is this another double standard? You know, one standard for me and another for you?

They're not claiming to be the Christian...you are...you represent the most High God so try acting like it...
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

They're not claiming to be the Christian...you are...you represent the most High God so try acting like it...

So it is a double standard. Ever hear this verse?

"Judge not, that ye not be judged."

Some people think it means not to make any judgements at all, but what it really means is that if you are going to judge, judge righteously, because if you don't, you will be judged by your own standards, even by your own words. "For with what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the the mote that is in the brothers eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

So it is a double standard. Ever hear this verse?

"Judge not, that ye not be judged."

Some people think it means not to make any judgements at all, but what it really means is that if you are going to judge, judge righteously, because if you don't, you will be judged by your own standards, even by your own words. "For with what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the the mote that is in the brothers eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

No, it is not a double standard...you claim to be a priest, do you not? A teacher...start acting like one...

"But the one who did not understand and yet did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few. Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him, and the one who was put in charge of much will have more than usual demanded of him." Luke 12:48

Because a teacher stands before others as instructing or leading them, more is expected from him than from other members of the congregation. This is in harmony with the Scriptural principle: “The one whom people put in charge of much, they will demand more than usual of him.” (Luke 12:48) Hence, a teacher’s words and actions come under closer scrutiny than those of other Christians. Furthermore, if a man errs in his teaching and this results in problems for members of the congregation, or if his actions give occasion for legitimate offense, he comes in line for severe judgment by Jehovah God through the Lord Jesus Christ. The Son of God said: “I tell you that every unprofitable saying that men speak, they will render an account concerning it on Judgment Day; for by your words you will be declared righteous, and by your words you will be condemned.”​—Matt. 12:36, 37.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/nwtsty/E/2018/42/12#s=48&study=discover&v=42:12:48
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

No, it is not a double standard...you claim to be a priest, do you not? A teacher...start acting like one...

"But the one who did not understand and yet did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few. Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him, and the one who was put in charge of much will have more than usual demanded of him." Luke 12:48



https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/nwtsty/E/2018/42/12#s=48&study=discover&v=42:12:48

I don't "claim" to be anything, I AM a Priest, but I am not "in charge" of anything. I assist the guy who is in charge. You might be prideful if you were in my shoes but I don't have the luxury, I am a servant, I don't lord my office over people. Now, I have tried to set the record straight on some things and you have rejected all of it, so don't presume to lecture me about being a teacher, you don't receive my words anyway because nobody can teach you anything.

Nobody has ever questioned my word except you, and that's to your own peril, not mine.
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

I don't "claim" to be anything, I AM a Priest, but I am not "in charge" of anything. I assist the guy who is in charge.
So youre an altar boy then?
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

I'm not sure it's as simple as that. If it were, there'd be a lot less fire and brimstone issuing from Southern Baptist pulpits...hehe...

I can't speak to many other denominations, not being as familiar with them as my own, but here's the Lutheran point of view. Given Original Sin (the eating of the forbidden fruit in Eden, and the following consequences), we, as human beings, can never be "perfect", no matter how hard we try (the strongest case against Christian smugness, by the way, in case you ever needed one). Therefore we can never "earn" or "deserve" salvation. Rather, it is given by God to those who believe in him, because he loves us.

Now, if we are in that relationship, we cannot help but do works - where works can also mean a lot of things, but generally are done in the service of God, either directly, or by helping others. But this is not what saves us.

In a way, there's a fairness to that. Critics like to go directly to the worst case scenario - the monster that repents on their deathbed. I'm not sure about that...I've sent the question out, will let you know the response. (My mother is a Lutheran minister, so I have a nice "Call a Friend" lifeline options...hehe) But from a more practical standpoint, works based salvation is actually rather ableist. Does a person who cannot perform works due to disability not get to go to Heaven, despite their great faith? (Rhetorical question, since no one really knows, beyond what the Bible says, and look how many ways that gets interpreted).

Bear in mind I'm not arguing correctness, I am simply sharing Lutheran ideology. Every denomination will have their own specific ideology on this, with most landing in a tight grouping, and a few others who find themselves a little on their own. In the end I believe it all amounts to the same thing...with the difference being how we view each other. A faith only denomination will look at a faith+works denomination, see their faith, and say they are saved, irrespective of their works (which, of course, we'd commend them for). I'm not sure what a faith+works denomination would say about us, but that's not really a concern for me beyond academic interest. If it were, I'd probably belong to their denomination, not mine. :)

Actually, I was confirmed Lutheran (long story )......eventually. Got booted from my confirmation for not giving the church elders and pastor the rubber stamped catechism answers they were expecting. After a recess, little bribery from dad to keep the family peace, I did a 'do-over', i.e. 'took one for the gipper' to keep the family peace, although by then it was all lip service as I was a pretty avid religious skeptic.
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

So youre an altar boy then?

People who don't know this stuff should refrain from talking about it.
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

I don't "claim" to be anything, I AM a Priest, but I am not "in charge" of anything. I assist the guy who is in charge. You might be prideful if you were in my shoes but I don't have the luxury, I am a servant, I don't lord my office over people. Now, I have tried to set the record straight on some things and you have rejected all of it, so don't presume to lecture me about being a teacher, you don't receive my words anyway because nobody can teach you anything.

Nobody has ever questioned my word except you, and that's to your own peril, not mine.

You would never be convicted by your actions of being a priest...don't worry, I said all I have to say...you're the one who is unteachable because you allow your pride and stubbornness get too much in the way for learning anything...
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

From a quick Google search, Roman Catholics, JW's, and Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints believe salvation is achieved through faith + works, while most protestant churches believe in salvation through faith (by grace) alone - probably because of Ephesians 2:8–9.

I don't know of any churches that believe in salvation through works alone. Given that both schools of thought involve faith, the only time this becomes a sticky issue is when denominations try to tell each other one is more right than the other.

I was told that the salvation comes through faith alone, but that if you have faith, good works will follow. Or something like that.
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

So thats a yes?

It means that you don't have the foggiest idea of what I am talking about.
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

It means that you don't have the foggiest idea of what I am talking about.

The ironic part is.. Neither do you.
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

It means that you don't have the foggiest idea of what I am talking about.

It was a yes or no answer, and youre not denying it.
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

It was a yes or no answer, and youre not denying it.

What have I always said?
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

It was a yes or no answer, and youre not denying it.

A person can say anything...I've always said I am the Queen of Sheba...anyone who believes that is just gullible...:2razz:
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

You claimed youre not in charge of anything- so you admit to it.

I'm going to explain this so even you can understand it. Maybe. The Altar belongs to the Bishop. I don't own it. I'm not in charge of it. Don't bother trying to catch me, you're just making yourself look foolish.
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

I'm going to explain this so even you can understand it. Maybe. The Altar belongs to the Bishop. I don't own it. I'm not in charge of it. Don't bother trying to catch me, you're just making yourself look foolish.

You said you are not in charge and you assist the one in charge. A priest holds mass in the church- that means he is in charge. If you dont hold mass, then you are either an altar boy or one of those guys who mops the floor after church.
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

You said you are not in charge and you assist the one in charge. A priest holds mass in the church- that means he is in charge. If you dont hold mass, then you are either an altar boy or one of those guys who mops the floor after church.

No, the Bishop is in charge, I serve at his pleasure, whether he's there or not. We all do. When I say the Mass I am called the "celebrant", not "the boss". Look it up. But everything I do is according to the direction of the Bishop.

You don't know that because you are not a Priest. I do.
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

No, the Bishop is in charge, I serve at his pleasure, whether he's there or not. We all do. When I say the Mass I am called the "celebrant", not "the boss". Look it up. But everything I do is according to the direction of the Bishop.

You don't know that because you are not a Priest. I do.

Thats wrong. Priests are appointed by the bishop to represent him in a particular parish. If youre not running the parish, then youre not a priest.
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

Thats wrong. Priests are appointed by the bishop to represent him in a particular parish. If youre not running the parish, then youre not a priest.

You don't know what you are talking about. There are monks who are Priests. The Rector is in charge of the parish but there is often more than one priest. Quit talking about things you know nothing about.
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

You don't know what you are talking about. There are monks who are Priests. The Rector is in charge of the parish but there is often more than one priest. Quit talking about things you know nothing about.

So now youre saying youre a monk? Sheesh, you are not very consistent...
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

So now youre saying youre a monk? Sheesh, you are not very consistent...

No, I am saying you are making this up as you go along.
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

I do believe he is in for a rude awakening...

The thief on the cross would disagree with you and so would Christ.
 
Re: Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by Works

So now youre saying youre a monk? Sheesh, you are not very consistent...

A Priest is someone who can perform the sacred rituals of the mass, specifically the Liturgy of the Eucharist, as many of the other rituals can be performed by a deacon (Marriage, Funeral, Baptism, etc.).

A Vicar is someone who acts as a representative of another (performing the duties of the office vicariously). The Pope, for example takes the title of the Vicar of Christ. At the lower levels of the Church, a vicar is one who represents the Pastor of a parish or as a representative of the Archbishop of a diocese. In various executive offices within a diocese, there is just too much for one Bishop (or Archbishop) to take on on his own, so there are various offices that can act with the authority of the Bishop (or Archbishop). These would be considered Vicars.

A Rector can be looked at as either office or function. As an office, the rector is one who presides over an ecclesiastical institution, such as the president of a Catholic university presiding over the University, or the priest of a mission or church that does not belong to a parish.

So, let's break it down:

A Priest acting as the agent of the Bishop when performing administrative or judicial duties for the diocese would hold the title of Vicar.

A Priest who is responsible for the operation of an ecclesiastical institution such as a University, Hospital, Church, Cathedral, or parish would be called a Rector. And depending on the scale of the duties, he may employ others below him to help carry out the duties of the office as... you guessed it... a Vicar.
https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-difference-between-a-priest-a-vicar-and-a-rector


Which one is he claiming to be?
 
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