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[W:326]*****Death By Pregnancy

Re: Death By Pregnancy

You got your medical degree where?





Far fewer people die from legal abortion than pregnancy.




That is your opinion, not fact. A zef is not a human being. That is fact.

Not correct, all abortions kill a baby. So abortion is 100% fatal

A “ZEF” is a baby.
 
Re: Death By Pregnancy

Your long and statistically laden story omitted the cause of death, which was the entire point of the OP. No woman can die from pregnancy-related causes if she was not pregnant.
I see. The wording in the article is misleading. It suggests the number reflects the number of women who "died while pregnant, in childbirth or within 42 days after pregnancy"--implying that "pregnancy-related" is any death that occurs under these circumstances.

However, having followed the links three deep, I see you are correct. The number reflects "the death of a woman while pregnant or within 1 year of the end of a pregnancy –regardless of the outcome, duration or site of the pregnancy–from any cause related to or aggravated by the pregnancy or its management, but not from accidental or incidental causes".

"Regardless of outcome" suggests this would also include deaths from complications related to birth control, abortifacients, abortions, as well as the pregnancy itself.

We also have to contend with "any cause related to or aggravated by the pregnancy or its management", which is determined posthumously by doctors. Since pregnancy affects pretty much every system in the body, one wonders how loosely "related to or aggravated by" is construed. Technically every illness, injury, and medical condition known to man can be "aggravated by" the additional stress placed on the body by pregnancy, and my previous post establishes that well over 2,000 pregnant women age 20-40 are expected to die from incidental causes in any given year.

The operative question being: of the 658, how many wouldn't have died if not for birth control, abortifacients, or abortions, and how many would have died anyway from incidental causes deemed to be "aggravated by" pregnancy? We can only speculate, but my point is that the number can only go down.

If we use the full 658 by assuming that abortion is perfectly safe and the aggravation is required to cause death in every single case, we compare this to approximately 4.9 million pregnancies in 2018 (4 million live births plus 860K abortions). Given an estimated 860,000 abortions in the US in 2018, this implies that if every woman who had an abortion carried to term, we'd expect 658 · 860K/4.9M = 115 additional deaths, or approximately one life taken for every 7,450 lives saved. The actual number is surely closer to one life for 10,000 lives due to the aforementioned factors and the risks of pregnancy prior to abortion.

The only circumstances where surely saving 7,450 (or 10,000) lives isn't worth the probabilistic cost of one life is if we don't consider the 7,450 foetuses to be human beings, which of course all pro-lifers do. Hence I fail to see why any reasonable person--pro-choice or pro-life--would expect the statistic in the OP to sway the balance scales. Even for an individual who considered a foetus' life to be 1/100th the value of its mother's life, the mortality rate would have to be at least 74 times what it currently is for abortion to be justifiable on this basis.
 
Re: Death By Pregnancy

Speaking of death...

 
Re: Death By Pregnancy

The only circumstances where surely saving 7,450 (or 10,000) lives isn't worth the probabilistic cost of one life is if we don't consider the 7,450 foetuses to be human beings, which of course all pro-lifers do. Hence I fail to see why any reasonable person--pro-choice or pro-life--would expect the statistic in the OP to sway the balance scales. Even for an individual who considered a foetus' life to be 1/100th the value of its mother's life, the mortality rate would have to be at least 74 times what it currently is for abortion to be justifiable on this basis.

If you reduce the issue to numbers, you dehumanize both unborn and women.

IMO it's about value, and the morality of the actions taken...against contributing members of society, who have responsibilities to family, dependents, who make sacrifices for their health, even life, who would suffer, who have commitments and obligations to employer, church, community, society, etc....and those who thus far have only the potential for any of that, would suffer nothing (and the imposition of suffering on another is one of the highest immoral acts IMO), and may not even survive to birth or be severely defective.

I value the unborn, but I value all born people more.
 
Re: Death By Pregnancy

Speaking of death...

Didnt watch but I guess we can all be glad that later term 2nd term and 3rd term abortions dont happen except out of medical necessity.

Do you object to those?

And of course, the informed know that the unborn do not suffer any awareness or pain from the procedure. By law, lethal/anesthetic injection must be administered before any removal procedure.
 
Re: Death By Pregnancy

Not correct, all abortions kill a baby. So abortion is 100% fatal

A “ZEF” is a baby.

No, it's not a baby. School has failed you and your cult is wrong.

"Those that know least, obey best"
 
Re: Death By Pregnancy

In the US, it's a huge problem



So, forced-birthers need to drop the BS lie that pregnancy is not a danger. It clearly is.



So, next time you want to force a woman to carry a pregnancy to term, just remember you may actually be playing a significant role in killing her.

When women die in childbirth, these are the fathers left behind - CNN

I'm not pro-life, but this is an absolutely terrible argument for legalized abortion. There were 3.8 million babies born in the US in 2018. 658 women died. That's 1 in every 5775 women who gave birth that died. That's insignificant. Pregnancy is not at all likely to kill a woman. It's really stupid to use rare edge cases like maternal death and late-term abortion to argue whether abortion should or shouldn't be legal.
 
Re: Death By Pregnancy

I'm not pro-life, but this is an absolutely terrible argument for legalized abortion. There were 3.8 million babies born in the US in 2018. 658 women died. That's 1 in every 5775 women who gave birth that died. That's insignificant. Pregnancy is not at all likely to kill a woman. It's really stupid to use rare edge cases like maternal death and late-term abortion to argue whether abortion should or shouldn't be legal.

It's not likely for you....as a man
 
Re: Death By Pregnancy

Pregnancy is not a danger. That 600 number is out of over 3.5 million births per year. You can say that’s a death rate of 0.0 for all intents and purposes.

Abortion however, is 100% fatal.

You’re also skipping out on the morality. Death from medical complications is a tragedy, intentionally killing a human is gravely evil. So abortion is always worse.

It's not a danger for you in the waiting room
 
Re: Death By Pregnancy

I'm not pro-life, but this is an absolutely terrible argument for legalized abortion. There were 3.8 million babies born in the US in 2018. 658 women died. That's 1 in every 5775 women who gave birth that died. That's insignificant. Pregnancy is not at all likely to kill a woman. It's really stupid to use rare edge cases like maternal death and late-term abortion to argue whether abortion should or shouldn't be legal.

Wow...how "insignificant" do you think those women's lives were to their husbands, boyfriends, current children, parents, brothers, sisters, other relatives, friends? It was EVERYTHING to their immediate families. It is devastating. As well as the loss of her contributions, commitments, to her employer, church, community, society, etc.

And the loss of the unborn? Not remotely the same impact. Not emotionally, financially, in terms of participation, presence, etc. Regret at the most, except to the mother/prospective parents.
 
Re: Death By Pregnancy

No one can foresee the future...besides,these women were too far along for an abortion anyway because they wanted their babies...they died during childbirth...read your own article, why don'tcha? SMH...
Except those that had an abortion would know their own risk could be higher. Forcing them to remain pregnant would increase the number of women added to that death toll, women who very well would have decided much earlier to terminate a pregnancy that they saw as too risky and would have led to their death. While they could not have known they would die, they could know if they have an increased risk of pregnancy related death.

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Re: Death By Pregnancy

The women that abort, are much more likely to have substandard access to medical care. She may qualify for emergency Medicaid...in many areas, Medicaid will get you into an overburdened under resourced clinic that may be two or three bus rides away. Not being easily accessible leads to more difficulty getting shifts and paying rent . She may make unfortunate decisions to skip these appointments if she feels "ok" jut to make sure she is able to scrape up enough to not be homeless.

Most women who abort are probably at greater risk due to substandard access to healthcare.

I felt fine and went in for my scheduled appointment. My experienced non hurried OB saw a subtle sign and decided to do some tests. My kidneys were under attack and I FELT FINE.

Because I was well resourced, I came out of my pregnancy with my life and was never in fear of homelessness.
Additionally, if abortion is illegal, it is actually more likely that a woman would not go to a doctor at all if she is even considering abortion and believes she is pregnant. After all, why would she want to leave a record of that pregnancy to be used against her?

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Re: Death By Pregnancy

Not correct, all abortions kill a baby. So abortion is 100% fatal

A “ZEF” is a baby.
Pregnancy already runs a 30% risk of death to any unborn.

However, since the pregnant woman should have a right to determine if she wants to take the risk of carrying a pregnancy to term that could impact her life or health, then that outweighs everything else. The woman who is pregnant has rights, the unborn don't.

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Re: Death By Pregnancy

I see. The wording in the article is misleading. It suggests the number reflects the number of women who "died while pregnant, in childbirth or within 42 days after pregnancy"--implying that "pregnancy-related" is any death that occurs under these circumstances.

However, having followed the links three deep, I see you are correct. The number reflects "the death of a woman while pregnant or within 1 year of the end of a pregnancy –regardless of the outcome, duration or site of the pregnancy–from any cause related to or aggravated by the pregnancy or its management, but not from accidental or incidental causes".

"Regardless of outcome" suggests this would also include deaths from complications related to birth control, abortifacients, abortions, as well as the pregnancy itself.

We also have to contend with "any cause related to or aggravated by the pregnancy or its management", which is determined posthumously by doctors. Since pregnancy affects pretty much every system in the body, one wonders how loosely "related to or aggravated by" is construed. Technically every illness, injury, and medical condition known to man can be "aggravated by" the additional stress placed on the body by pregnancy, and my previous post establishes that well over 2,000 pregnant women age 20-40 are expected to die from incidental causes in any given year.

The operative question being: of the 658, how many wouldn't have died if not for birth control, abortifacients, or abortions, and how many would have died anyway from incidental causes deemed to be "aggravated by" pregnancy? We can only speculate, but my point is that the number can only go down.

If we use the full 658 by assuming that abortion is perfectly safe and the aggravation is required to cause death in every single case, we compare this to approximately 4.9 million pregnancies in 2018 (4 million live births plus 860K abortions). Given an estimated 860,000 abortions in the US in 2018, this implies that if every woman who had an abortion carried to term, we'd expect 658 · 860K/4.9M = 115 additional deaths, or approximately one life taken for every 7,450 lives saved. The actual number is surely closer to one life for 10,000 lives due to the aforementioned factors and the risks of pregnancy prior to abortion.

The only circumstances where surely saving 7,450 (or 10,000) lives isn't worth the probabilistic cost of one life is if we don't consider the 7,450 foetuses to be human beings, which of course all pro-lifers do. Hence I fail to see why any reasonable person--pro-choice or pro-life--would expect the statistic in the OP to sway the balance scales. Even for an individual who considered a foetus' life to be 1/100th the value of its mother's life, the mortality rate would have to be at least 74 times what it currently is for abortion to be justifiable on this basis.
Those fetuses, regardless of how they are viewed, have no legal rights in the US. The pregnant woman does. So the fetus dying to save the mother or even to keep the woman from increasing her risk of dying or facing health issues is hers to make.

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Re: Death By Pregnancy

I'm not pro-life, but this is an absolutely terrible argument for legalized abortion. There were 3.8 million babies born in the US in 2018. 658 women died. That's 1 in every 5775 women who gave birth that died. That's insignificant. Pregnancy is not at all likely to kill a woman. It's really stupid to use rare edge cases like maternal death and late-term abortion to argue whether abortion should or shouldn't be legal.
But it would be more if abortion was illegal. Plus it is a risk every woman should get to decide for herself to take on, not for others to decide.

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Re: Death By Pregnancy

True but the point is....if abortion were illegal, women would have no choice and be condemned to take these risks against their will.

No, the point is no one can get an abortion, even if they wanted to, as they're ready to give birth, like the women in this article...
 
Re: Death By Pregnancy

Not correct, all abortions kill a baby. So abortion is 100% fatal

A “ZEF” is a baby.

No. A ZEF is a zygote, embryo and fetus, by definition.

This is a baby

unpopular-baby-names-920x752.jpg

Not a ZEF
 
Re: Death By Pregnancy

Didnt watch but I guess we can all be glad that later term 2nd term and 3rd term abortions dont happen except out of medical necessity.

Do you object to those?

And of course, the informed know that the unborn do not suffer any awareness or pain from the procedure. By law, lethal/anesthetic injection must be administered before any removal procedure.

That is absolute, total bs...

A recent NIH study noted: “The threshold for tactile stimuli is lower at earlier stages of gestation. The pain inhibition mechanisms are not sufficiently developed during intrauterine development, which is another factor leading to increased intensity of pain in the fetus. All this points to the fact that the fetus is extremely sensitive to painful stimuli, and that this fact should be taken into account when performing invasive medical procedures on the fetus.”

Does the baby feel pain during an abortion? - Pregnancy Clinic
 
Re: Death By Pregnancy

No one can foresee the future...besides,these women were too far along for an abortion anyway because they wanted their babies...they died during childbirth...read your own article, why don'tcha? SMH...

Irrelevant. The OP specifically concerns death during childbirth. There's no reason that it should be this high in a developed nation.

I for one wouldn't mind spending a few taxpayer dollars to improve methods of birth that is safer for both mother and baby.
 
Re: Death By Pregnancy

Irrelevant. The OP specifically concerns death during childbirth. There's no reason that it should be this high in a developed nation.

I for one wouldn't mind spending a few taxpayer dollars to improve methods of birth that is safer for both mother and baby.

IF the statistics in the opening post are accurate, we should wonder why that is. And I think we would all agree that we ought to find out why that might be.

It IS odd that childbirth should be more dangerous here in America. . maybe we should spend some & find out why
 
Re: Death By Pregnancy

IF the statistics in the opening post are accurate, we should wonder why that is. And I think we would all agree that we ought to find out why that might be.

It IS odd that childbirth should be more dangerous here in America. . maybe we should spend some & find out why

Lack of insurance
 
Re: Death By Pregnancy

Lack of insurance

That is unacceptable isn't it ?

I think it is. "Insurance" - insuring insurance companies and salespeople get richer at our expense every day : )
 
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