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W:276]14th Amendment - Original Intent and Roe V Wade

Whose freedom does the 2nd Amendment restrict ?

The Bill of Rights spells out specific personal rights that the government is obligated to observe.

The second Amendment does not restrict the government from limiting the types of firearms, but only the prohibition against all firearms. That's why you don't get to own a surface-to-air missile launcher or fully automatic machine guns without significant accountability measures.

Can you name any specific STATUTE that does not restrict someone's freedom?
 
The Bill of Rights spells out specific personal rights that the government is obligated to observe.

The second Amendment does not restrict the government from limiting the types of firearms, but only the prohibition against all firearms. That's why you don't get to own a surface-to-air missile launcher or fully automatic machine guns without significant accountability measures.

Can you name any specific STATUTE that does not restrict someone's freedom?

The 2nd Amendment doesn't say that. It places no restrictions on what weapons a citizen may own - but then again it meant muzzle loading muskets not atom bombs and jet bombers which were inconceivable in the 18th century.
So the 2nd Amendment places NO restrictions on citizens, merely the US government.

The US government is not stupid though and places restrictions on the 2nd that are not specified...it similarly ruled the the $100 fine (a lot in the 18th century) for not filling in a census applied to EVERY question...again it twisted the meaning of the Constitution to meet modern times.

Ah you want a STATUTE not a Constitutional Amendment as an example of a law.
How about statutes legalizing marijuana ?


State Medical Marijuana Laws
 
Ah you want a STATUTE not a Constitutional Amendment as an example of a law.
How about statutes legalizing marijuana ?
State Medical Marijuana Laws

Are you suggesting that marijuana came into existence as an illegal drug? No, of course not. It was perfectly legal for much of U.S. existence. Freedom. Then someone came along, passed a law that restricted someone's freedom to consume marijuana. Medical marijuana laws simply carved out exceptions to the original law that restricted people's freedom.

Abortion was originally legal until somebody decided it wasn't. The sides battled all the way to the USSC and Roe v Wade was the result. One side lost, and they have been seeking ways to nullify the ruling ever since.

These same people were the ones who fought against the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act, The Equal Rights Amendment, Gay rights, etc., because they love the freedoms that those laws restricted them from enjoying. It would appear that their mantra is "Freedom for me, but not for thee!"
 
The 2nd Amendment doesn't say that. It places no restrictions on what weapons a citizen may own - but then again it meant muzzle loading muskets not atom bombs and jet bombers which were inconceivable in the 18th century.
So the 2nd Amendment places NO restrictions on citizens, merely the US government.

The US government is not stupid though and places restrictions on the 2nd that are not specified...it similarly ruled the the $100 fine (a lot in the 18th century) for not filling in a census applied to EVERY question...again it twisted the meaning of the Constitution to meet modern times.

Ah you want a STATUTE not a Constitutional Amendment as an example of a law.
How about statutes legalizing marijuana ?


State Medical Marijuana Laws

For the purpose of a well regulated militia.
 
Are you suggesting that marijuana came into existence as an illegal drug? No, of course not. It was perfectly legal for much of U.S. existence. Freedom. Then someone came along, passed a law that restricted someone's freedom to consume marijuana. Medical marijuana laws simply carved out exceptions to the original law that restricted people's freedom.

Abortion was originally legal until somebody decided it wasn't. The sides battled all the way to the USSC and Roe v Wade was the result. One side lost, and they have been seeking ways to nullify the ruling ever since.

These same people were the ones who fought against the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act, The Equal Rights Amendment, Gay rights, etc., because they love the freedoms that those laws restricted them from enjoying. It would appear that their mantra is "Freedom for me, but not for thee!"

Reminds me of the fatal flaw of classical liberalism. They made huge exceptions that reflected their personal biases. It was a feature, not a bug.
 
Are you suggesting that marijuana came into existence as an illegal drug? No, of course not. It was perfectly legal for much of U.S. existence. Freedom. Then someone came along, passed a law that restricted someone's freedom to consume marijuana. Medical marijuana laws simply carved out exceptions to the original law that restricted people's freedom.

Abortion was originally legal until somebody decided it wasn't. The sides battled all the way to the USSC and Roe v Wade was the result. One side lost, and they have been seeking ways to nullify the ruling ever since.

These same people were the ones who fought against the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act, The Equal Rights Amendment, Gay rights, etc., because they love the freedoms that those laws restricted them from enjoying. It would appear that their mantra is "Freedom for me, but not for thee!"

Well most things were illegal until some decided it wasn't - speeding for instance

You asked for a STATUTE that restricted people's freedoms, I just gave you one.

How about this law:

"The recently-passed $305-billion highway bill will make it much easier for replicas of vintage cars to rumble down the road. Under part of the new law, companies can sell up to 325 reproductions with a full powertrain annually of a model that's at least 25 years old. After certification from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and Environmental Protection Agency, these vehicles don't have to meet crash safety standards or state pollution tests, but they do need to pass current federal emissions rules...."


New law paves way for more replica vintage cars | Autoblog


So your claim that ALL laws restrict personal freedom is utterly refuted.
 
Well most things were illegal until some decided it wasn't - speeding for instance

You asked for a STATUTE that restricted people's freedoms, I just gave you one.

How about this law:

"The recently-passed $305-billion highway bill will make it much easier for replicas of vintage cars to rumble down the road. Under part of the new law, companies can sell up to 325 reproductions with a full powertrain annually of a model that's at least 25 years old. After certification from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and Environmental Protection Agency, these vehicles don't have to meet crash safety standards or state pollution tests, but they do need to pass current federal emissions rules...."


New law paves way for more replica vintage cars | Autoblog


So your claim that ALL laws restrict personal freedom is utterly refuted.

So you're saying that these replica cars are restricted from polluting the air unfettered? Why can't they have the freedom to blow blue smoke up and down the highway? What is the government's overriding interest?
 
So you're saying that these replica cars are restricted from polluting the air unfettered? Why can't they have the freedom to blow blue smoke up and down the highway? What is the government's overriding interest?

That would be a DIFFERENT law to control emissions - and are you saying inanimate objects like cars, that posses no rights, are or should be viewed the same as people who do ?
 
That would be a DIFFERENT law to control emissions - and are you saying inanimate objects like cars, that posses no rights, are or should be viewed the same as people who do ?

Play your games. Hijack the the thread on abortion, whatever.

Laws are enacted to limit someone's freedom, the 2nd amendment limits the government's freedom to disarm its citizenry.

Roe v Wade struck down laws that prohibited abortion.

All laws restrict someone's freedom.
 
Play your games. Hijack the the thread on abortion, whatever.


??? Have you run out of things to say ?

...laws are enacted to limit someone's freedom, the 2nd amendment limits the government's freedom to disarm its citizenry.....


Yawn

The government ISN'T a person

The 2nd Amendment doesn't restrict people...it enables or empowers them

Do you really not understand this or are you pedantically playing your "game" rather admit to making a fallacious statement ?


...Roe v Wade struck down laws that prohibited abortion....


So that too didn't restrict personal freedom ?


...all laws restrict someone's freedom.



As stated the 2nd Amendment doesn't restrict anyone's freedom....and the government isn't a person but an institution transiently occupied by many, many people...all of them who are not restricted by the 2nd Amendment in any way.

If you're incapable of understanding this, think of a name of a person who is restricted by the 2nd Amendment.
 
Do you guys agree or disagree with the Supreme Court Ruling on Roe V Wade? ON A CONSTITUTIONAL BASIS ONLY - I dont want this to evolve into a pro life or pro choice debate, I want to keep the discussion in line and framed from a purely consitutional perspective.

I want to see support for the decision in favor of this ruling OR support for the dissenting opinion. Please provide background and personal opinion and why you agree or disagree. The SCOTUS RULED 7-2 in favor of Roe in 1973.

Legal abortion is the only 14th Amendment decision that's controversial. How can it be kept out of a discussion on the constitutional legality of Roe v Wade?
 
Legal abortion is the only 14th Amendment decision that's controversial. How can it be kept out of a discussion on the constitutional legality of Roe v Wade?

It can't and whilst Roe v Wade is a landmark decision, it used part of the Constitution that never addressed abortion and for this reason it is unsatisfactory.

We need an amendment to address the issue.
 
Abortion & the US Constitution

It can't and whilst Roe v Wade is a landmark decision, it used part of the Constitution that never addressed abortion and for this reason it is unsatisfactory.

We need an amendment to address the issue.

TMK, none of the US Constitution directly addresses abortion, even though the procedure was well known to the midwives & healers & etc. - likely apothecaries - from @ least Greek and Roman times.

Amending the US Constitution was deliberately made a difficult & time-consuming process; presumably to keep it infrequent & only for serious purposes. Which means that the process could take years, if not decades; with no guarantee that a satisfactory result (acceptable to all) will ensue. The Supreme Court is charged by the Constitution with resolving constitutionality issues - that isn't sufficient to accept the SC's holding in Roe v. Wade? If people reject the SC's charge in this area, Why would they be any more likely to accept the outcome - if any - of a Constitutional amendment?
 
Re: Abortion & the US Constitution

TMK, none of the US Constitution directly addresses abortion, even though the procedure was well known to the midwives & healers & etc. - likely apothecaries - from @ least Greek and Roman times.

Amending the US Constitution was deliberately made a difficult & time-consuming process; presumably to keep it infrequent & only for serious purposes. Which means that the process could take years, if not decades; with no guarantee that a satisfactory result (acceptable to all) will ensue. The Supreme Court is charged by the Constitution with resolving constitutionality issues - that isn't sufficient to accept the SC's holding in Roe v. Wade? If people reject the SC's charge in this area, Why would they be any more likely to accept the outcome - if any - of a Constitutional amendment?

I don't think it does either and yes a constitutional amendment is deliberately difficult for good reason.

Never-the-less we need an amendment to specifically address abortion and provide a set of specific rules.
 
Re: Abortion & the US Constitution

TMK, none of the US Constitution directly addresses abortion, even though the procedure was well known to the midwives & healers & etc. - likely apothecaries - from @ least Greek and Roman times.

Amending the US Constitution was deliberately made a difficult & time-consuming process; presumably to keep it infrequent & only for serious purposes. Which means that the process could take years, if not decades; with no guarantee that a satisfactory result (acceptable to all) will ensue. The Supreme Court is charged by the Constitution with resolving constitutionality issues - that isn't sufficient to accept the SC's holding in Roe v. Wade? If people reject the SC's charge in this area, Why would they be any more likely to accept the outcome - if any - of a Constitutional amendment?

The right wing only alleges to care about natural rights in abortion threads involving removing control from women over their own bodies. Prevention is more ethical; yet, the right wing complains about that as well.
 
Re: Abortion & the US Constitution

I don't think it does either and yes a constitutional amendment is deliberately difficult for good reason.

Never-the-less we need an amendment to specifically address abortion and provide a set of specific rules.

That is your opinion.

Do we need an amendment that allows parents to send their children their children to a religious school instead of a public school?

Or an amendment that allows parents to have a child learn a foreign language?

Those are just a couple of Supreme Courtnrulings that were right to privacy precedents and paved the way For Roe.


[There were several right to privacy precedents set before Roe v Wade.
The more precedents, the harder it is to overturn a SC ruling.


It will be extremely hard to overturn Roe without also striking down the precedents of right to privacy cases before Roe including right to privacy regarding child rearing rights , such as the right for parents to send their children to private or religious schools instead of schools.

These most likely would become dismantled if Roe v Wade were overturned.

Weems v. United States (1910)
In a case from the Philippines, the Supreme Court finds that the definition of "cruel and unusual punishment" is not limited to what the authors of the Constitution understood under that concept.

Meyer v. Nebraska (1923)
A case ruling that parents may decide for themselves if and when their children may learn a foreign language, based upon a fundamental liberty interest individuals have in the family unit.

Pierce v. Society of Sisters (1925)

A case deciding that parents may not be forced to send their children to public rather than private schools, based on the idea that, once again, parents have a fundamental liberty in deciding what happens to their children.

Olmstead v. United States (1928)

The court decides that wire tapping is legal, no matter what the reason or motivation, because it is not expressly prohibited in the Constitution. Justice Brandeis' dissent, however, lays the groundwork for future understandings of privacy.

Skinner v. Oklahoma (1942)
An Oklahoma law providing for the sterilization of people found to be "habitual criminals" is struck down, based on idea that all people have a fundamental right to make their own choices about marriage and procreation.

Tileston v. Ullman (1943) & Poe v. Ullman (1961)

The Court refuses to hear a case on Connecticut laws prohibiting the sale of contraceptives because no one can demonstrate they have been harmed. Harlan's dissent in Poe, however, explains why the case should be reviewed and why fundamental privacy interests are at stake.

Griswold v. Connecticut (1965)
Connecticut's laws against distribution of contraceptives and contraceptive information to married couples are struck down, with the Court relying on earlier precedent involving the rights of people to make decisions about their families and procreation as a legitimate sphere of privacy.

Loving v. Virginia (1967)
Virginia law against interracial marriages is struck down, with the Court once again declaring that marriage is a "fundamental civil right" and that decisions in this arena are not those with which the State can interefere unless they have good cause.

Eisenstadt v. Baird (1972)

The right of people to have and know about contraceptives is expanded to unmarried couples, because the right of people to make such decisions exists due not simply to the nature of the marriage relationship. Instead, it is also due to the fact that it is individuals making these decisions, and as such the government has no business making it for them, regardless of their marital status.

Roe v. Wade (1973)
The landmark decision which established that women have a basic right to have an abortion, this was based in many ways upon the earlier decisions above. Through the above cases, the Supreme Court developed the idea that the Constitution protects a person's to privacy, particularly when it comes to matters involving children and procreation.
 
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Re: Abortion & the US Constitution

I don't think it does either and yes a constitutional amendment is deliberately difficult for good reason.

Never-the-less we need an amendment to specifically address abortion and provide a set of specific rules.

Must every single point of law and every single right be defined only by amendment? No. The Ninth Amendment covers all that, with elegant simplicity.
 
Re: Abortion & the US Constitution

That is your opinion....

You don't think I would have posted it, had it NOT been my opinion do you?
Not sure what you're try to say here

....do we need an amendment that allows parents to send their children their children to a religious school instead of a public school?

Is there a significant impediment to this? Would you agree that is a choice worth having ? How about an Atheist or Marxist school ?
Are you going to offer YOUR opinion ?

...or an amendment that allows parents to have a child learn a foreign language?

Yes, such an amendment would be necessary IF parents were so prevented

...those are just a couple of Supreme Court rulings that were right to privacy precedents and paved the way For Roe....

You mean in your opinion


...it will be extremely hard to overturn Roe without also striking down the precedents of right to privacy cases before Roe including right to privacy regarding child rearing rights , such as the right for parents to send their children to private or religious schools instead of schools....

Constitutional amendments are hard to pass and for good reason.
Never-the-less I think an amendment specifically to address abortion and the rights of the unborn child is necessary. Some would say the unborn child has no such rights...this is why the USA needs an amendment to specify.
 
Re: Abortion & the US Constitution

Must every single point of law and every single right be defined only by amendment? No. The Ninth Amendment covers all that, with elegant simplicity.

True but abortion deals with life and death issues (quite literally) and is therefore deserving of an amendment specifically to address it.

Secondly the 9th Amendment is from the 18th century, medical science and our understanding has advanced considerably since then and the Constitution should reflect that.
 
Re: Abortion & the US Constitution

the right wing only alleges to care about natural rights, in abortion threads that are about the control of women.
 
Re: Abortion & the US Constitution

True but abortion deals with life and death issues (quite literally) and is therefore deserving of an amendment specifically to address it.

Secondly the 9th Amendment is from the 18th century, medical science and our understanding has advanced considerably since then and the Constitution should reflect that.

OK, how about this for an amendment: Neither Congress nor state legislatures shall make any law that infringes upon a woman's right to make her own healthcare decisions, including but not limited to the decision to terminate her pregnancy or seek out otherwise qualified medical or healthcare providers to facilitate her decision.
 
Re: Abortion & the US Constitution

OK, how about this for an amendment: Neither Congress nor state legislatures shall make any law that infringes upon a woman's right to make her own healthcare decisions, including but not limited to the decision to terminate her pregnancy or seek out otherwise qualified medical or healthcare providers to facilitate her decision.

Would that mean she could legally terminate a healthy pregnancy the day before sh was due to give birth ?
 
Re: Abortion & the US Constitution

You don't think I would have posted it, had it NOT been my opinion do you?
.....

Constitutional amendments are hard to pass and for good reason.
Never-the-less I think an amendment specifically to address abortion and the rights of the unborn child is necessary. Some would say the unborn child has no such rights...this is why the USA needs an amendment to specify.

An amendment is not needed as Roe Since determined the unborn has no rights.


In the history of the Unites States an unborn has never had any rights.

From Roe Part IX :

 
Re: Abortion & the US Constitution

Would that mean she could legally terminate a healthy pregnancy the day before sh was due to give birth ?

That does not happen.

In real abortions past 21 weeks are rare.
Less than 1.3 percent of all US abortions occur past 21 weeks and 90 percent are because of catastrophic fetal defects.

From Romper :



In 2013, there were four doctors in the country who performed abortions after the 20th week of pregnancy,
according to Slate. (Current numbers could be even lower.)

Only 1.3 percent of abortions happen at, or after, 21 weeks, she said, ��and 80 percent of those are the results of catastrophic defects with the fetus.

Even fewer happen after 24 weeks which is the limit of viability.

Those occur because the fetus is not viable ( it is dead or dying and will not survive and puts the woman at risk of death from an infection ).

The other reason would be the woman would would suffer irreparable damage to one of her major bodily functions if the pregnancy continued.
 
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