[W:273]Trump makes yet another false claim about California voter fraud

[MTAtech]

Do people speed while driving? Would the number of tickets written for speeding provide an accurate number to how many engage in doing so?

That's the problem, as I see it. Lack of willingness to conduct the investigation.

You have millions of illegals using fake ID's. Why would they not vote, if they were given the chance?

Hell, Progressives who run California made it legal for illegals to vote if they did so thinking they had been given permission to do so. All they have to do is claim they thought it was ok, and there is no legal ramification.

Debunking the Voter Fraud Myth | Brennan Center for Justice

 

[Herkamer63]

Yep. Fake news. Just seeing CNN is more than enough to believe that there's not much in substance to this story. Plus, it's California we're talking about, and it's ran by Leftists. They could be falsifying information for all we know. Their state government struck down voting results, back in the late 2000s, that would ban homosexual (not 'gay') marriage, so it wouldn't surprise me if they would hide real information. Mr Moderator, move this thread to the Conspiracy Theories section. Thank You!

 

[ocean515]

Debunking the Voter Fraud Myth | Brennan Center for Justice

Brennan is a worthless source, given their ownership by the elite in the Progressive world.

However, I think the real issue is the lack of any desire to even look into the issue. I understand why.

Why would California look into voter fraud being perpetuated by a class they favor and protect?

For me it comes down to protecting the sanctity of the vote, regardless of who wins.

My vote, for example, means nothing in California. Not a single candidate I support will ever get elected. So why vote? Because my forefathers fought in the Revolution to secure my right to do so.

I'd just like to see everything possible done to see that my Ancestral Grandfather's efforts still mean something today.

 

[Obscurity]

enforce the laws....thats what I want....whatever's on the books enforce....compliance officers make the rounds looking at books counting heads and cleaning up the system.

we shouldn't need a huge Ice agency chasing law breakers....secure the border and increase wages....good for workers good for GOVERNMENT

I want employers held accountable for decades of abuse and neglect and dereliction of the law. They are hiring workers illegally and inflating their own coffers while artificially driving down wages.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Brennan is a worthless source, given their ownership by the elite in the Progressive world.

The reason why ad hom is a fallacy is because even the world's stupidest and most reprehensible person can say, "The sun will rise."
And all that stupidity and all the reprehensibility lacks the power to make the statement false.

That said, it's not fair to expect you to respond to a lengthy report instead of elements of the report.

 

[Obscurity]

Brennan is a worthless source, given their ownership by the elite in the Progressive world.

However, I think the real issue is the lack of any desire to even look into the issue. I understand why.

Why would California look into voter fraud being perpetuated by a class they favor and protect?

For me it comes down to protecting the sanctity of the vote, regardless of who wins.

My vote, for example, means nothing in California. Not a single candidate I support will ever get elected. So why vote? Because my forefathers fought in the Revolution to secure my right to do so.

I'd just like to see everything possible done to see that my Ancestral Grandfather's efforts still mean something today.

Then you're against the poll tax of voter ID, you're against the laws restricting who can vote and how installed by plenty of republicans across the country, I assume?

Glad you're on the team.

Now, explain to me why you keep voting for republicans if they keep restricting the rights your forefathers died to ensure?

 

[JasperL]

You really jones on this "you lie" meme you keep throwing around.

Why is that?

I didn't lie about anything. DeLeon confirmed members of his family, and nearly every other illegal alien use stolen identities and forged documents to survive.

Why would such prolific law breakers stop at voting, when it would be in their best interests to do so?

So, rather than continuing with your snarky and pointless projections, why not engage in some rational discussion?

That's a nice way to highlight the contradictions in your position

1) Illegals use stolen identities to accomplish things necessary "to survive."

2) So, therefore, they'll use stolen identities to do something that not only isn't needed to survive, i.e. vote, but with a personal payoff approaching $0, that subjects them to felony prosecution and jail, and permanent deportation.

Those two things - getting a job that allows them to get paid and feed their families, pay rent, etc. versus voting couldn't be more different. It's the difference between 1) buying food and 2) getting a haircut at a salon. The former is a necessity, the latter a luxury, optional, unnecessary, something that one can not-do for a lifetime and face no negative consequences, same as voting.

 

[Trump]

I want employers held accountable for decades of abuse and neglect and dereliction of the law. They are hiring workers illegally and inflating their own coffers while artificially driving down wages.

agree...enforce the laws

 

[ocean515]

The reason why ad hom is a fallacy is because even the world's stupidest and most reprehensible person can say, "The sun will rise."
And all that stupidity and all the reprehensibility lacks the power to make the statement false.

That said, it's not fair to expect you to respond to a lengthy report instead of elements of the report.

The point is, I've read the report that is linked.

Key elements that should be considered. Nearly every cited study involves a source that is dubious or highly biased and has an agenda. Brennan itself is a far left Progressive operation funded by the elite of the Progressive world, including George Soro's and his Open Society Foundation.

So confirmation bias and objective are rampant throughout the "study".


Would you read and accept a study showing voter fraud was rampant, especially among illegals, if it came from the Heritage Foundation?

The point is, if there is no formal investigation by government entities that have the actual power to dig into the details, everything else is pointless.

The evidence shows illegals steal id's and forge documents. Why wouldn't they also vote? I'm not saying the absolutely do, but with fake ID, no ramifications, people can't say the absolutely don't vote.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

The point is, I've read the report that is linked.
Key elements that should be considered. Nearly every cited study involves a source that is dubious or highly biased and has an agenda.

Such as...

Would you read and accept a study showing voter fraud was rampant, especially among illegals, if it came from the Heritage Foundation?

I have read A report from the heritage Foundation in re electoral fraud.
I don't recall the conclusion that voter impersonation fraud was "rampant" whether "among illegals" or no.

Maybe you are talking about some other report from Heritage. idk

The evidence shows illegals steal id's and forge documents. Why wouldn't they also vote?

Not sure that my answer or lack of an answer has much bearing
I can speculate as well as many people.
But to what end?

I'm not saying the absolutely do, but with fake ID, no ramifications, people can't say the absolutely don't vote.

At least several someones are saying that this is definitely happening, that it's wide-spread, and that it's happening on the scale of millions of incidents.
One of these someone's resides in the WH.

Imho, it's an extraordinary claim that millions of acts of electoral fraud are happening all over the country and that these acts of electoral fraud are leaving a trail of "overwhelming" evidence of the fact.
It seems overwhelming evidence'd be overwhelming instead of hard to come by.

 

[ocean515]

Then you're against the poll tax of voter ID, you're against the laws restricting who can vote and how installed by plenty of republicans across the country, I assume?

Glad you're on the team.

Now, explain to me why you keep voting for republicans if they keep restricting the rights your forefathers died to ensure?

Please avoid this kind of nonsense when you're posting to me. If you're interested in rational and meaningful discussion I'm up for it.


Otherwise assume I'll just ignore it in the future.

 

[JasperL]

Brennan is a worthless source, given their ownership by the elite in the Progressive world.

However, I think the real issue is the lack of any desire to even look into the issue. I understand why.

Brennan cited dozens of STUDIES into the issue. In fact a quick glance indicates every single claim Brennan made was backed by a study. Contrast that to claims of rampant voter fraud, which are almost never backed up by studies. The one study you pointed to, by ODU, wasn't a study of voting at all, and has serious problems pointed out in another post. And red states have a huge desire and have engaged in long running efforts to prove that voter fraud is a serious problem, and they have all failed to document this claim. That's why your big cite is the ODU study, not one on voting that shows actual voter fraud.

Why would California look into voter fraud being perpetuated by a class they favor and protect?

For me it comes down to protecting the sanctity of the vote, regardless of who wins.

My vote, for example, means nothing in California. Not a single candidate I support will ever get elected. So why vote? Because my forefathers fought in the Revolution to secure my right to do so.

I'd just like to see everything possible done to see that my Ancestral Grandfather's efforts still mean something today.

I get that feeling. I vote in GOP primaries pretty often because the Democratic primary doesn't matter for most races. I know the GOP candidate will win, and it will be by 20 points or more, so I choose to exert my influence by trying to select the least awful GOP candidate. That's not evidence of election fraud by the GOP or voter fraud by GOP voters. It's evidence my neighbors overwhelmingly support GOP candidates.

 

[ocean515]

That's a nice way to highlight the contradictions in your position

1) Illegals use stolen identities to accomplish things necessary "to survive."

2) So, therefore, they'll use stolen identities to do something that not only isn't needed to survive, i.e. vote, but with a personal payoff approaching $0, that subjects them to felony prosecution and jail, and permanent deportation.

Those two things - getting a job that allows them to get paid and feed their families, pay rent, etc. versus voting couldn't be more different. It's the difference between 1) buying food and 2) getting a haircut at a salon. The former is a necessity, the latter a luxury, optional, unnecessary, something that one can not-do for a lifetime and face no negative consequences, same as voting.

There is no contradiction in my post. I have no idea what you are referring to.

Electing politicians who will create sanctuary states and cities most certainly is more than just $0 in return.

Electing politicians who will provide free healthcare to illegals certainly would inspire illegals using fake ID to cast a vote.

Why would you ignore that reality?.

 

[Trump]

Electing politicians who will create sanctuary states and cities most certainly is more than just $0 in return.

Electing politicians who will provide free healthcare to illegals certainly would inspire illegals using fake ID to cast a vote.

Why would you ignore that reality?.

They have no right to be here.

I have no interest in hearing sob stories about failures from failed cultures trying to bleed the country of benefits that are supposed to be for legal residents and citizens.

no creditability on illegal immigration since Ronnie was ****ed over by Dems after amnesty last time.....don't cut in line.....

 

[Praxas]

The evidence shows illegals steal id's and forge documents. Why wouldn't they also vote? I'm not saying the absolutely do, but with fake ID, no ramifications, people can't say the absolutely don't vote.

Because voting, for the most part, requires standing in line (sometimes for hours) and the least thing a criminal (that's the term the right uses for illegals) is to be out in the open around authorities.

 

[ocean515]

Brennan cited dozens of STUDIES into the issue. In fact a quick glance indicates every single claim Brennan made was backed by a study. Contrast that to claims of rampant voter fraud, which are almost never backed up by studies. The one study you pointed to, by ODU, wasn't a study of voting at all, and has serious problems pointed out in another post. And red states have a huge desire and have engaged in long running efforts to prove that voter fraud is a serious problem, and they have all failed to document this claim. That's why your big cite is the ODU study, not one on voting that shows actual voter fraud.



I get that feeling. I vote in GOP primaries pretty often because the Democratic primary doesn't matter for most races. I know the GOP candidate will win, and it will be by 20 points or more, so I choose to exert my influence by trying to select the least awful GOP candidate. That's not evidence of election fraud by the GOP or voter fraud by GOP voters. It's evidence my neighbors overwhelmingly support GOP candidates.

Right, a study by Washington Post, or any other number of biased sources.

When there is no real effort to investigate on a government level, then whatever conclusions are presented are meaningless.

Does the Washington Post have access to voter data? Who voted, when, what their address is? Social Security numbers? Etc., etc..

The only thing anyone knows is that a certain person who was registered to vote, actually voted. That's it. The Secretary of State, or the local election commission would have to do a thorough investigation, and I don't see any of those entities showing any desire to do so.


So, with elections so close, we end up with chaos every time.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Would you read and accept a study showing voter fraud was rampant, especially among illegals, if it came from the Heritage Foundation?

Election Fraud Cases | The Heritage Foundation


Here's the entire list in this image from Heritage for voter impersonation over the years they looked at.

Heritage also have a category for ineligible voting.
That category has a list of incidents which is almost 17 pages @ 15 incidents a page.
So, ≈250 cases over the years Heritage looked at.

That also seems to be less than "rampant" imho. ymmv

It's objectively less than millions

 

[JasperL]

There is no contradiction in my post. I have no idea what you are referring to.

Electing politicians who will create sanctuary states and cities most certainly is more than just $0 in return.

That's true collectively, but for any given voter for any race with any issue at stake, the personal payoff is objectively approaching $0, because almost no election is decided by 1 or even 100 votes, and even in those elections decided by razor thin margins, a person deciding to vote or not vote doesn't know this until after the fact.

However, getting an ID that allows you to work and get paid and feed your family has a personal payoff to that person of survival, as you said.

Electing politicians who will provide free healthcare to illegals certainly would inspire illegals using fake ID to cast a vote.

Why would you ignore that reality?.

They have no right to be here.

I have no interest in hearing sob stories about failures from failed cultures trying to bleed the country of benefits that are supposed to be for legal residents and citizens.

The reality I see is no one has ever documented a non-trivial problem of illegals voting. If this thing is "certainly" true then the evidence "certainly" exists, not just in CA but in Texas, NM, AZ, AL, GA, TN and all the other states illegals reside, lots of them red states. All I'd like to see is this evidence that 'certainly' exists.

 

[ocean515]

Because voting, for the most part, requires standing in line (sometimes for hours) and the least thing a criminal (that's the term the right uses for illegals) is to be out in the open around authorities.

I commend you for a worthy attempt, but no. How would an illegal alien voter standing in line look any different than their legal alien cousin who is standing next to them?

Besides, mail in balloting is becoming very popular in California, so no lines at all.

 

[ocean515]

Election Fraud Cases | The Heritage Foundation


Here's the entire list in this image from Heritage for voter impersonation over the years they looked at.

Heritage also have a category for ineligible voting.
That category has a list of incidents which is almost 17 pages @ 15 incidents a page.
So, ≈250 cases over the years Heritage looked at.

That also seems to be less than "rampant" imho. ymmv

It's objectively less than millions

I think you're either willfully choosing to ignore the point, or I'm not making it very well.

If nobody investigates the crime, does that mean the crime isn't being committed?

 

[Fruityfact]

I think you're either willfully choosing to ignore the point, or I'm not making it very well.
If nobody investigates the crime, does that mean the crime isn't being committed?

So you must be in favor of executions in the case of the extensive intentional North Carolina election fraud? Yes? because otherwise you'd be a hypocrite and we wouldn't want you to be a hypocrite.

 

[JasperL]

Right, a study by Washington Post, or any other number of biased sources.

When there is no real effort to investigate on a government level, then whatever conclusions are presented are meaningless.

Why do you think there is no real effort in, say, Texas or any other red state to prove rampant voting by non-citizens? Bush tasked his U.S. attorneys to find and vigorously prosecute 'voter fraud' in the early 2000s and they came up nearly empty. Were they incompetent or just not interested?

Does the Washington Post have access to voter data? Who voted, when, what their address is? Social Security numbers? Etc., etc..

Texas does, for example. Why haven't they found evidence of a big problem?

The only thing anyone knows is that a certain person who was registered to vote, actually voted. That's it. The Secretary of State, or the local election commission would have to do a thorough investigation, and I don't see any of those entities showing any desire to do so.

So, with elections so close, we end up with chaos every time.

It's a mystery why red states intent on making voting more difficult, voter ID, etc. don't get off their lazy rear ends and just do these studies. The courts would appreciate having actual evidence for their claims of 'voter fraud.'

 

[Simon W. Moon]

I think you're either willfully choosing to ignore the point, or I'm not making it very well.
If nobody investigates the crime, does that mean the crime isn't being committed?

A bigger mystery is "if nobody investigates the crime", how are people getting convicted?

How are these prosecutors getting criminal convictions by demonstrating beyond a reasonable doubt that electoral fraud happened if "nobody investigates the crime"?

I admit that you being able or unable to answer that semi-rhetorical question has no bearing on the facts of the case.
It's possible that these 1000+ convictions in various states of the Union could have all been the result of some process or phenomenon which does not require a criminal investigation.
Just because we're unfamiliar with such a process or phenomenon does not mean that it does not exist or that it did not happen.

But, it seems natural for an interested party to wonder how the convictions were obtained without investigation.
I mean, you wonder that too, right?

 

[ocean515]

So you must be in favor of executions in the case of the extensive intentional North Carolina election fraud? Yes? because otherwise you'd be a hypocrite and we wouldn't want you to be a hypocrite.

Thank you for sharing your interesting thoughts.

 

[Fruityfact]

Thank you for sharing your interesting thoughts.

So you're in favor of the executions of the North Carolina election fraud masterminds or not? Subverting democracy shouldn't be taken so lightly. Someone might accuse you of being a hypocrite.